Bob Ezrin - Still worthy?

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Re: Bob Ezrin - Still worthy?

Post by Mr.Bluelegs » Wed Feb 24, 2016 12:27 am

I always liked "I'm the Coolest", too. Remember that Henry Winkler ( Fonzie) was approached to appear on the song but declined. Winkler didn't want to be "typecast" so he turned Alice down. Met the guy once in the '70's (around the time of the album) and he was, pretty much, an egotistical jerk. Glad the song wasn't cheapened by his appearance.

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Re: Bob Ezrin - Still worthy?

Post by darkmenace » Wed Feb 24, 2016 1:54 am

mr.barlow wrote:
pitkin88 wrote:
They all took for granted that the fans would grow with Alice and accept that he was trying to move forward as an artist and try new things.
Except it wasn't moving forward "as an artist" to be more middle-of-the-road. There's nothing ambitious artistically about that. Bowie, on the other hand, was recording albums like Low and Heroes, very experimental. That was moving forward as an artist.

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Re: Bob Ezrin - Still worthy?

Post by mr.barlow » Wed Feb 24, 2016 3:16 am

darkmenace wrote:
mr.barlow wrote:
pitkin88 wrote:
They all took for granted that the fans would grow with Alice and accept that he was trying to move forward as an artist and try new things.
Except it wasn't moving forward "as an artist" to be more middle-of-the-road. There's nothing ambitious artistically about that. Bowie, on the other hand, was recording albums like Low and Heroes, very experimental. That was moving forward as an artist.
I think Alice would disagree with you. I would love to hear Bob Ezrin's reply to your comment and I'm sure it would be priceless.

At any rate, he was going in the direction which he wanted to go as an artist---if you consider that "middle-of-the-road" than so be it. It doesn't change the fact that Alice was branching out quite a bit from being a hard rock artist.

"Goes To Hell" was far from being "middle-of-the-road" as if it was so accessible I'm sure it would have been a huge hit coming off of WTMN. The album was more adult contemporary than rock and he couldn't reach either of those audiences with great success with the album.

L&W was just a total disaster for many reasons--most of which have to do with substance abuse and health problems discussed in this thread. Also, the Escargot idea was more of a marketing idea to try and jettison the "horror" character so that Alice could have more room to try different ideas and styles. It's no secret that he grew to loathe being the "classic" character around that time and has spoken openly about how being the character all the time nearly killed him. He wanted out of it--but the fans would have none of it. If L&W and Escargot were a success who knows where Alice would have ended up.

I would be that if Alice went on stage in 2016 in full make-up and performed "I'm The Coolest", "Wake Me Gently", or "Lace and Whiskey" this board would light up with people saying how great those songs are and that Alice is a genius.

I'm not sure if people remember the flack that Alice got when "You & Me" was released and became a huge hit. L&W and that song had his fan base fleeing in droves. It was one of the most syrupy ballads of the 1970s and it totally turned his fans against him. YET---when Alice performs it live in full "horror" Alice make-up the same fans that ridiculed him are there cheering saying how great it is!

As far as Bowie is concerned, I can write a whole dissertation on the matter. Alice and Bowie had a lot in common but were completely worlds apart. A lot of it had to do with their respective fan bases. Bowie's fan base was more open to his changing personas every few years. They were open to his changing styles. The fans that were there for Ziggy Stardust were still there and supported him with "Let's Dance". When Alice started to branch out the fans left him--not only during Escargot but again with Flush The Fashion and up until he brought back the classic character in 1986.

Alice finally decided to play it safe and give the fans what they wanted. How many interviews have we all read since 1986 where Alice talks about writing for the character. It's all written for the horror/macabre character in mind and that image. There is little deviation from that.

I happen to think this is why Alice is enjoying the Hollywood Vampires so much. He is doing something outside the character. I'm not saying he doesn't like playing the horror character as that's his bread and butter, but it's no secret that he just seems to be going through the motions with it. With the HV he looks like he has some passion back.

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Re: Bob Ezrin - Still worthy?

Post by pitkin88 » Wed Feb 24, 2016 4:27 am

When Alice branched out WB left him not the fans. The Special Forces tour in the Uk ( and Europe ) was a sucess despite the fact he hadn't played there in 7 yrs!! If you label is not behind you then you are pretty much screwed regarding record sales.

I'm pretty sure you mean I Never Cry instead of You and Me which I don't think has ever been performed ( thank God ).

At least half of ACGTH was MOR AOR or whatever you want to label it. If he had released that album after leaving the band it would have been a disaster. The dice was rolled with WTMN and with ACGTH he was, if not bust, certainly on the ropes. L&W was the creative nail in the coffin with Alice drunkenly thinking he could do just about anything from disco to Country. He could but badly. Neither Ezrin or Shep ( coke ) could derail that mess and steer him in the right directions. Wagner at least baulked at the undercooked live Chickens and shortly after flew the Coop.

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Re: Bob Ezrin - Still worthy?

Post by mr.barlow » Wed Feb 24, 2016 5:16 am

pitkin88 wrote:When Alice branched out WB left him not the fans. The Special Forces tour in the Uk ( and Europe ) was a sucess despite the fact he hadn't played there in 7 yrs!! If you label is not behind you then you are pretty much screwed regarding record sales.

I'm pretty sure you mean I Never Cry instead of You and Me which I don't think has ever been performed ( thank God ).

At least half of ACGTH was MOR AOR or whatever you want to label it. If he had released that album after leaving the band it would have been a disaster. The dice was rolled with WTMN and with ACGTH he was, if not bust, certainly on the ropes. L&W was the creative nail in the coffin with Alice drunkenly thinking he could do just about anything from disco to Country. He could but badly. Neither Ezrin or Shep ( coke ) could derail that mess and steer him in the right directions. Wagner at least baulked at the undercooked live Chickens and shortly after flew the Coop.
You are correct. "You & Me" was performed live in 1977 (quite horribly)on that tour but that's when Alice was Escargot. "I Never Cry" is not as sugary as You & Me but again--a lot of the fans hated it at the time yet love it when he does it live in the horror character.

Wagner mentions the chickens and the Tonight Show appearance in his book. He hated the chickens and was not too happy with the whole direction of that tour. He was thrilled that the band was on Carson and thought it went well, but he said the chickens were just an awful idea. If I remember it right (I'll have to check the book), the original plan for The Tonight SHow as to be just Alice and Wagner doing "You & Me". Wagner at the piano and Alice singing (as Escargot). I think wagner's departure had more to do with his own problems than creative disagreements. He did co-write FTI and I will have to go back and see if he discusses why he did not tour it.

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Re: Bob Ezrin - Still worthy?

Post by darkmenace » Wed Feb 24, 2016 5:16 am

On a related note I just saw Bob Ezrin's name trending tonight and feared the worst. Luckily it wasn't about his health but he's currently in a very public feud with Kanye West! Apparently Bob called Kanye guilty of "excessive behavior, egomaniacal tantrums, and tasteless grandstanding," among other things!

Kanye took exception on twitter and shot back.

Nice to see Bob getting some headlines. Young people who have never heard of Bob Ezrin are trying to figure who it is that Kanye is ranting about!

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Re: Bob Ezrin - Still worthy?

Post by darkmenace » Wed Feb 24, 2016 5:26 am

mr.barlow wrote: A lot of it had to do with their respective fan bases. Bowie's fan base was more open to his changing personas every few years. They were open to his changing styles. The fans that were there for Ziggy Stardust were still there and supported him with "Let's Dance". When Alice started to branch out the fans left him--not only during Escargot but again with Flush The Fashion and up until he brought back the classic character in 1986.
I see what you're saying but it's a knock on Alice's fan base and I don't agree. I believe that Bowie was successful making changes to his image and music because he was so good at it. Alice wasn't. Who's going to follow along with a change towards Maurice Escargot that is supported by a below average album and dancing chickens? On the other hand the Thin White Duke was successful because Bowie did it with style and Station to Station was a solid album.

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Re: Bob Ezrin - Still worthy?

Post by Babysquid » Wed Feb 24, 2016 7:47 am

pitkin88 wrote:
I'm pretty sure you mean I Never Cry instead of You and Me which I don't think has ever been performed ( thank God ).
I'm confused! What do you mean? They're both on the live album The Alice Cooper Show.

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Re: Bob Ezrin - Still worthy?

Post by A_MichaelUK » Wed Feb 24, 2016 11:33 am

From mr.barlow:
"At any rate, he was going in the direction which he wanted to go as an artist---if you consider that "middle-of-the-road" than so be it. It doesn't change the fact that Alice was branching out quite a bit from being a hard rock artist."

Exactly and despite the fact that this has been discussed here so many times before, some people still can't make the distinction between what might have been the right thing for Alice to do in retrospect (because obviously, everyone's an expert in retrospect) and what he did actually want to do. It is exactly the same situation as when Alice started appearing as a guest on mainstream television shows and becoming known for playing golf.

>but it's no secret that he just seems to be going through the motions with it.

I would dispute that but that would be for a different thread entirely.

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Re: Bob Ezrin - Still worthy?

Post by A_MichaelUK » Wed Feb 24, 2016 11:46 am

From pitkin88:
"When Alice branched out WB left him not the fans."

It isn't an 'either / or' situation - both had an impact. It should be obvious that mr.barlow didn't mean all "the fans" to be taken literally.

The Special Forces tour in the Uk ( and Europe ) was a sucess despite the fact he hadn't played there in 7 yrs!!

Yes and that was precisely because "he hadn't played there in 7 yrs!!" not "despite" it. If you look at his biggest markets at the time (in North America) he was no longer regularly playing big arenas at the time on those tours. The factors mr.barlow referred to (plus the others that have been discussed here endlessly) all had an impact.

If you label is not behind you then you are pretty much screwed regarding record sales.

Yet as you have shown, in Britain, it didn't hurt ticket sales.

>I'm pretty sure you mean I Never Cry instead of You and Me which I don't think has ever been performed ( thank God ).

> Wagner at least baulked at the undercooked live Chickens and shortly after flew the Coop.

Well, that isn't strictly true but I understand your point. Leaving aside he had his own issues to deal with, he also stayed long enough to work on what is considered to be one of Alice's best albums (and we know it's one you hate) which was "From The Inside".

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Re: Bob Ezrin - Still worthy?

Post by A_MichaelUK » Wed Feb 24, 2016 11:55 am

From darkmenace:
"I believe that Bowie was successful making changes to his image and music because he was so good at it. Alice wasn't."

That is totally irrelevant. Your point was that one took an artistic risk and the other did not. Whether one or the other was "successful" in doing that is not the issue.

> Who's going to follow along with a change towards Maurice Escargot that is supported by a below average album and dancing chickens?

I agree but again, that isn't the issue. Who is going to become an Alice Cooper fan after seeing him on "The Muppet Show"? As it turned out, hundreds, maybe thousands of people did. Who was going to become a David Bowie fan after seeing him in "Labyrinth". As it turned out, hundreds, maybe thousands of people did.

>On the other hand the Thin White Duke was successful because Bowie did it with style and Station to Station was a solid album.

Again, you're not following your own point. If "Alice Cooper Goes To Hell" had become the most successful album ever, would you now be saying Alice was a genius for going in that direction?

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Re: Bob Ezrin - Still worthy?

Post by guttertrash » Wed Feb 24, 2016 3:56 pm

Based on sales figures that I have found, Bowie nor Alice drastically outperformed one another between '76 and '80 in the U.S. On the other hand, it seems like Alice had a hard time crossing the pond during that period. Bowie's staying power in the eyes of the consumer and music fan was due to him consistently working within the current pop trends and being on the radio. Yes, he most certainly stretched the music to mark it as clearly his, but he always had at least one song accessible enough for radio playing for the current pop market up until the mid-90s at least. While this kept him on the charts and the radio, it did not make his sales better than Alice's in the U.S. Alice stuck to making music in the confines of the past. Rock n' roll, adult contemporary ballads, and pop music of the past, along with influences from show tunes and the like, Bowie always kept one ear on the trends of the moment, and he did a great job infusing those trends with his own ideas. I always loved Alice though, because he did stay a rock musician. I don't like some of the detours he has taken, but there has always been a rock n' roll song or two from each album that I have been able to enjoy, whereas, I respect Bowie for what he did, but he lost me after Diamond Dogs.

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Re: Bob Ezrin - Still worthy?

Post by recoop » Wed Feb 24, 2016 5:16 pm

Guttertrash- you mention that Alice had a "hard time crossing the pond" from 76 to 80 and I think this applies to sales figures and literally coming to the UK and Europe to tour- If Alice had crossed the pond to tour on the back of Lace and Whiskey with some tracks from ACGTH and Welcome, I think he would have been welcomed with open arms especially in the UK.

He was welcomed with the Special Forces Tour in 1982. I know that the SF UK tour didn't seem to boost sales of the album but I think a tour or tours in between 76 to 80 would have helped album sales on an ongoing basis. I think Alice lost sales momentum. I would just add that from my experience at the raucous Glasgow gig in 82, that many of the fans I talked to were Iron Maiden fans and some AC/DC. They were younger and "Alice curious" rather than hardcore fans like myself.
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Re: Bob Ezrin - Still worthy?

Post by Si » Wed Feb 24, 2016 5:40 pm

You also have to add into the mix the stigma that comes with being called "heavy metal" from the mainstream.
Recoup is right in that many attending the '82 shows were metalheads. This is partially because Kerrang embraced Alice and was the bible for those people.
As soon as that label is attached to you generally, apart from a brief period around late 80s, mainstream radio/TV simply won`t play you, at least over here.

Bowie never had that despite coming from the same hard rock roots as Alice. 'Heroes' for example is as much HM as it is new wave, or punk, or whatever they want to call it, at least when played right!!

While the NR/Constrictor brought back the Alice fans wanted, it was a dumbed down version aimed at a specific audience that was huge at the time, the 'heavy metal' audience, and once he was pidgeonholed as that genre it was hard to get the mainstream exposure to sell above a certain level. Trash was the pinnacle of that period but the ongoing attachment to the label would never go away.
To this day Alice is either heavy metal or 'Shock Rock' which is basically the same thing with window dressing to the general public.

..and for what its worth to get this back on topic, I think Ezrin should produce any future AC album, and that he did a great job on W2MN. Still can`t understand why some don`t like most of it, bar a few specific songs..

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Re: Bob Ezrin - Still worthy?

Post by While Heaven Wept » Wed Feb 24, 2016 5:48 pm

I've never questioned the production of Bob Ezrin, he's the perfect man for AC. I do think a different songwriter could be beneficial though.

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Re: Bob Ezrin - Still worthy?

Post by A_MichaelUK » Wed Feb 24, 2016 7:14 pm

From guttercrash:
"Based on sales figures that I have found, Bowie nor Alice drastically outperformed one another between '76 and '80 in the U.S."

Are you able to provide a link or something? I don't think that's true. For example, Bowie did not sell albums or singles in significant numbers until 1983 and during the time you're referring to, none of his albums with the possible exception of the compilation album and the live album sold particularly well ("Low" especially was not a big seller) whereas in that period, "Alice Cooper Goes To Hell" and even "Lace And Whiskey" (and let's not forget the live album) sold quite well (not as well as before or after that time but still quite well). Alice was also having hit singles with the ballads as well. The real commercial decline began with either "From The Inside" and then "Flush The Fashion". They were both still playing arenas, though.

>On the other hand, it seems like Alice had a hard time crossing the pond during that period. Bowie's staying power in the eyes of the consumer and music fan was due to him consistently working within the current pop trends and being on the radio.

I really don't want to take the thread even further off - topic but, with the exception of "Station To Station", that is so inaccurate it's amazing. I am (I'm willing to bet) one of the biggest Bowie fans here (maybe even the biggest) so I do know a bit about that particular subject.

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Re: Bob Ezrin - Still worthy?

Post by A_MichaelUK » Wed Feb 24, 2016 7:20 pm

From recoop:
"If Alice had crossed the pond to tour on the back of Lace and Whiskey with some tracks from ACGTH and Welcome, I think he would have been welcomed with open arms especially in the UK."

It was a vicious circle. He wasn't touring in Europe because he wasn't having big hit records (that was one of the reasons for that) and he wasn't having big hit records because he wasn't touring in Europe (and that was one of the reasons for that). It is the same reason why he didn't do any shows in Australia after 1977 until 1990, for example.

>They were younger and "Alice curious" rather than hardcore fans like myself.

Yes - that's a good point.

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Re: Bob Ezrin - Still worthy?

Post by recoop » Thu Feb 25, 2016 2:35 pm

Andy, I think you are correct about the vicious circle of low sales/no tour. I also think the decision not to tour the UK with Billion Dollar Babies did Alice Cooper the group and then solo a bit of damage to UK album sales subsequently. Sales of MOL were low and even Welcome didn't sell that well (even although Welcome did have a few shows in the UK).

And getting back to "Is Bob Worthy"-having just read some of his comments regarding Kanye, Bob still has a lot to offer. As for Kanye, is his personality all an act (a persona), could he be lacking in some department and/ or does he need help I wonder?.
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Re: Bob Ezrin - Still worthy?

Post by darkmenace » Thu Feb 25, 2016 6:24 pm

guttertrash wrote:Based on sales figures that I have found, Bowie nor Alice drastically outperformed one another between '76 and '80 in the U.S.
This didn't sound correct to me either so I looked it up based on chart positions and
Alice had a higher charting album in 1975 and after that it was all Bowie to the end of the decade.

1975: WTMN (5) Young Americans (9)
1976: ACGTH (27) Station to Station (3)
1977: L&W (42) Low (11) and Heroes (35)
1978/79: FTI (60) Lodger (20)
1980: FTF (44) Scary Monsters (12)

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Re: Bob Ezrin - Still worthy?

Post by A_MichaelUK » Thu Feb 25, 2016 7:58 pm

From recoop:
"Sales of MOL were low and even Welcome didn't sell that well (even although Welcome did have a few shows in the UK)."

I don't know how true that in relation to the latter as it is considered a very successful album.

>As for Kanye, is his personality all an act (a persona), could he be lacking in some department and/ or does he need help I wonder?.

For those who enjoy trivia, he seemed very happy to meet Alice when they met.

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