Road in the charts

[Mr. Misdemeanor]

I’d much rather see a fresher set with newer material mixed in.

Me too. Alice has an incredibly deep catalog of great songs to pull from; it's a shame that he doesn't play more of them.
On top of that I think his live versions of songs are often better than the studio recordings. A good performance can turn a "bad" studio track into a winner.

How many Alice Cooper songs are there at the "absolutely 100% essential, MUST be performed at every concert" level? I ask because I'm curious about how much room he has in the setlist for other songs, new and old. Eighteen, School's Out, Poison and then what? If Welcome to My Nightmare and Go to Hell aren't I'm not sure that any other songs (other than the 3 I previously mentioned) should always have to be in the set.

[mr.barlow]

Flopped? By what measure? Having said the charts are meaningless what are you using to measure success or failure? Surely not the charts?

Okay it's a smash worldwide hit. Out selling Taylor Swift and Slim Whitman combined.

And guess what...he's still going to play the same tired hits.

Not sure what the point of that was. He’s never had a worldwide number one for weeks smash hit that became a multi million seller. Even the band never had that.

What he has had is a 50+ year career ultimately underpinned by two tracks (School’s Out and Poison) which have indeed out-streamed everything else put together. His longevity and ultimately his legacy has been underpinned by at least five waves of success:

1. ACG
2. WTMN and the ballad hits
3. Poison to Wayne’s World
4. Hitting the threshold of being seen as a classic legendary artist (particularly in Europe) and most recently...
5. The Vampires, which actually has potential to grow.

These waves have been supported by a couple of themes:

1) Touring
2) New music

Touring has been fundamental to longevity and the continued delivery of new music (whether people like an album or not) absolutely demonstrates the desire and energy to keep on keeping on.

There isn’t much tired about changing up stage sets, releasing new music, doing the rounds to promote, touring two bands etc. You may not like it but the album charted well in most places, probably lost 1-2 thousand early sales in the US and Canada which may come back later, and the “same old tired hits” are still there because of the audience response which I see every time I’m there.

Oh brother...and I thought I was a long-winded gasbag!

[revinkevin]

I’d much rather see a fresher set with newer material mixed in.

Me too. Alice has an incredibly deep catalog of great songs to pull from; it's a shame that he doesn't play more of them.
On top of that I think his live versions of songs are often better than the studio recordings. A good performance can turn a "bad" studio track into a winner.

Agreed. When the Last Temptation came out I had mixed feelings on it. Lyrically it was fantastic but musically it was a bit sterile. Two different producers and a bunch of studio musicians didn’t help. Then I saw him in concert and he played at least 2 songs from it, maybe 3, and they really rocked. The band took it to another level.

[del]

Okay it's a smash worldwide hit. Out selling Taylor Swift and Slim Whitman combined.

And guess what...he's still going to play the same tired hits.

Not sure what the point of that was. He’s never had a worldwide number one for weeks smash hit that became a multi million seller. Even the band never had that.

What he has had is a 50+ year career ultimately underpinned by two tracks (School’s Out and Poison) which have indeed out-streamed everything else put together. His longevity and ultimately his legacy has been underpinned by at least five waves of success:

1. ACG
2. WTMN and the ballad hits
3. Poison to Wayne’s World
4. Hitting the threshold of being seen as a classic legendary artist (particularly in Europe) and most recently...
5. The Vampires, which actually has potential to grow.

These waves have been supported by a couple of themes:

1) Touring
2) New music

Touring has been fundamental to longevity and the continued delivery of new music (whether people like an album or not) absolutely demonstrates the desire and energy to keep on keeping on.

There isn’t much tired about changing up stage sets, releasing new music, doing the rounds to promote, touring two bands etc. You may not like it but the album charted well in most places, probably lost 1-2 thousand early sales in the US and Canada which may come back later, and the “same old tired hits” are still there because of the audience response which I see every time I’m there.

Oh brother...and I thought I was a long-winded gasbag!

I wouldn’t dare to compete.

[mr.barlow]

Not sure what the point of that was. He’s never had a worldwide number one for weeks smash hit that became a multi million seller. Even the band never had that.

What he has had is a 50+ year career ultimately underpinned by two tracks (School’s Out and Poison) which have indeed out-streamed everything else put together. His longevity and ultimately his legacy has been underpinned by at least five waves of success:

1. ACG
2. WTMN and the ballad hits
3. Poison to Wayne’s World
4. Hitting the threshold of being seen as a classic legendary artist (particularly in Europe) and most recently...
5. The Vampires, which actually has potential to grow.

These waves have been supported by a couple of themes:

1) Touring
2) New music

Touring has been fundamental to longevity and the continued delivery of new music (whether people like an album or not) absolutely demonstrates the desire and energy to keep on keeping on.

There isn’t much tired about changing up stage sets, releasing new music, doing the rounds to promote, touring two bands etc. You may not like it but the album charted well in most places, probably lost 1-2 thousand early sales in the US and Canada which may come back later, and the “same old tired hits” are still there because of the audience response which I see every time I’m there.

Oh brother...and I thought I was a long-winded gasbag!

I wouldn’t dare to compete.

Okay I'll play

His career is not "underpinned" by two songs. The foundation for everything is the original group from which the character grew out of and who's string of hits enabled Alice to go on a solo career.

WTMN came out of that success. Alice did solidify the "classic"character in that era which I believe hurt him as whenever he strayed too far from it he found little success. The whole Mauruce Escargot thing was a giant flop and Alice tried to course correct with bringing back the "classic" character with From The Inside but by that time musical trends were changing. Bring in the early 1980s (my favorite era) and Alice's career was basically over as he was unable to find a new persona that his fans would accept. However, all that turmoil produced his masterpiece Dada.

In all actuality there were only 2 "waves" of success.

1969-1976
1986-present

The 1986 tour was the comeback.. and the return if the "classic" classic character. Trash was the culmination of the grueling work put in from 1985 until its release. Also Shep deserves a lot of credit for getting the Epic Records deal and lining up Desmond Child.

Also the touring band of 1986-1987 deserve a lot of credit to his incredible climb out of the musical gutter. Without the success of the 1986 tour that would have been it....permanently.

Don't take my word for it ask anyone including Alice.

New music and touring are not "themes" but rather business. Alice's success is based in hard work, resilience, his ability to adapt and as I'm sure he will also tell you his deep Christian faith. Lest we not forget Shep whom without, it would have ended long long ago.

"Lost one to two thousand sales"....that alone shows you how pathetic album sales are these days. Alice used to sell in the millions of units.

He plays the hits as that's what his audience expects as is with any legacy act these days.

It's great to hear he is drawing in Europe but here in the USA we have some states that are bigger than European countries.

If you were to look at Alice's sales and chart by individual states you'd find a fast difference in sales and position for each state and geographical region.

Is there a chart that reflects all of Europe as a whole?

At any rate...the charts today are nonsense. The manipulation that is taking place with streaming alone is enough yo make them irrelevant.

Bring back the days of payoffs and purchasing large quantities of your own albums.

I believe Shep did that with Love It To Death to help it achieve gold status in the USA.

I'm thrilled that Alice is still going and making new music but I'm sure he like myself us not too concerned with chart position these days.

[del]

Lol.

A slight mis-understanding there. Not for a minute did I suggest sales are good or that Alice is as popular as ever. Neither did I seek to talk about Alice personally or Shep, or for that matter Bob. I’ll happily recognise all of that and I’ll happily recognise the ACG, including Shep and Bob, as the foundation without which we would not be here now.

What I was talking about was waves of popularity and I’ll stick with what I said although I stand corrected with Constrictor and the Nightmare Returns tour which I clearly managed to completely overlook somehow. Sure, the waves have got smaller since the late 80’s but they are there to be seen if you look below the two periods you see.

To me the ACG era peaked with B$B and subsided, not least with sales, with MOL To me, solo Alice was to some extent a re-invention of the character which was far more showbiz than before and came with softened edges. It worked, he got on TV, increased sales dramatically and started the sequence of ballad hits which pulled the albums along until Alice was up a dark alley as music had moved on. A clear second wave for me.

I agree that the next period was a low in terms of popularity and, from here in the UK he had effectively gone underground or died. While, I’ll never put DaDa at the top of my lists it was an artistic peak in that period.

After the late 80’s peak we had the trough and relative quiet of the 90’s and the more active but still low profile of the early 2000’s. This is when he transitioned into the ledgend/legacy act he is now and audiences, profile and chart performance (at whatever level) grew in Europe.

School’s Out broke Alice outside the US and Poison brought him back everywhere. Of course there were hits either side of both tracks but these are the general public’s recognition points. Nothing else comes close. They have always got the major part of the airplay, alway appeared on “Big hits of Rock/Glam/the 80’s” etc. They have been the access points for many and they are what keeps the name alive to any extent beyond those who are fans. In the detail of Spotify stats they are the first tracks that many first time listeners play before they decide to look further. Without them it would be a completely different situation.

I’m well aware of the US’s population, geographic variations in sales patterns and overall trends over the years. I’ve had friends and family members who worked in the UK US and internationally for three major labels and retailers and a school friend who has toured globally and sold for decades in the US and Europe. He knows in detail where sales come from and that he can’t get any sales in South Dakota but always gets some in Iowa.

It’s clear that Alice is more legacy in the US than mainland Europe where the audience is different and consume relatively more of the new material.

There is no current recognised European chart as far as I know, not least because we are talking multiple countries rather than states and a population of over 600 million.

Maurice Escargot was a turd of an idea, no problem agreeing with that.

I never suggested sales were good nowadays, they fell off a cliff after Trash and Hey Stoopid.
What I suggested was that there is relatively more success here in Europe over the last period,

The charts are obviously not as important but still have relevance. Some acts still have contracts signed or renegotiated based on performance. It’s not the only reason, never was, but it still happens.

I’m please that you are thrilled because the longer it goes on the bigger the legacy of Alice and the greater the memory of the band.

Phew..

[AlongCameASpider27]

How can anyone say the overall AC tour was predictable? Look at the Ol Black Eyes tour...the incredible Nightmare Castle backdrop? As for the diversity of music...that was a good example...we had Feed My Frankenstein open the show...we had Teenage Frankenstein close the main set...we had Go Man Go, Bed of Nails, Hey Stoopid, He's Back, Roses on White Lace, Steven, Escape, My Stars..so a nice variety was thrown out there...a very Theatrical production...one of his best imo

[Dragontown]

Oh brother...and I thought I was a long-winded gasbag!

I wouldn’t dare to compete.

It's great to hear he is drawing in Europe but here in the USA we have some states that are bigger than European countries.

Not sure if I understood correctly what your thought was but...no way the US has states that are bigger than european countries like Italy,Spain France in terms of population...even Belgium is more populated than most of US states.

[kevinuk81]

Think what the previous poster was saying, Texas has more square miles and bigger population.

For example.

[Dragontown]

Think what the previous poster was saying, Texas has more square miles and bigger population.

For example.

I get it that it's larger, but still not bigger as population. Europe is more than double the USA. Italy alone is about 60 mln, way more than Texas.
I was suggesting that an US-centric vision of how AC carreer is unfolding is slightly myopic.

[del]

Agree your point about a US centric view Dragontown but there are quite a few countries with small populations e.g. Ireland, Finland, Luxembourg etc.

[mr.barlow]

I wonder what type of income Alice makes from European touring and if it more/less than that in the USA. I know taxes are off the charts in most European countries so I'm wondering how much of it Alice and company comes home with. I'm sure it's worth his while as he keeps hitting foreign soil but I am curious.

This is a question for those residing in Europe or other foreign countries...can anyone provide any insight on this?

I know "Google is your friend" but I've tried it and can't nail anything down.

[del]

It’s difficult to answer this as there are so many variables. One thing that’s certain though is that nearly all acts are working on increased costs of 20% - 30% or more to tour since Covid so, unless they can simply increase the ticket price to compensate, they have needed to change how they manage a tour. I’ve got an example.

An act which is fairly popular in Northern Europe. Used to tour there every couple of years. 10-15 dates over a 25 - 30 day period. The plan was always to cover all costs, make enough to fund the next project plus put a target amount of money from the profits to go to the bank to live off. They always worked things back to a target % of available tickets sold.

The increased cost to tour meant a rethink last year. 15 dates set but over a shorter period of 19 days, zero use of hotels, smaller crew, much cheaper rehearsal space and two local warm up gigs to replace some rehearsal time and cost (and make a little money instead) no backing singer and much cheaper support act, renegotiated venue rates, new merchandise options and prices etc.

Result - the last tour netted more than the previous one. They played in 2000-4000 venues and aimed to sell @75% of tickets to hit their targets which included putting money in the bank. Anything else was a bonus. Average price for a ticket was about €55. I was told they sold over 80% of tickets so over €120k extra to the band on top of whatever was already in the plan.

One other quick example - solo act, 12000 attended a gig. £30 a ticket and profit after all costs was over 30%.
Potentially at least £100k (before tax) Not bad for one night.

[cooperrocks]

It’s difficult to answer this as there are so many variables. One thing that’s certain though is that nearly all acts are working on increased costs of 20% - 30% or more to tour since Covid so, unless they can simply increase the ticket price to compensate, they have needed to change how they manage a tour. I’ve got an example.

An act which is fairly popular in Northern Europe. Used to tour there every couple of years. 10-15 dates over a 25 - 30 day period. The plan was always to cover all costs, make enough to fund the next project plus put a target amount of money from the profits to go to the bank to live off. They always worked things back to a target % of available tickets sold.

The increased cost to tour meant a rethink last year. 15 dates set but over a shorter period of 19 days, zero use of hotels, smaller crew, much cheaper rehearsal space and two local warm up gigs to replace some rehearsal time and cost (and make a little money instead) no backing singer and much cheaper support act, renegotiated venue rates, new merchandise options and prices etc.

Result - the last tour netted more than the previous one. They played in 2000-4000 venues and aimed to sell @75% of tickets to hit their targets which included putting money in the bank. Anything else was a bonus. Average price for a ticket was about €55. I was told they sold over 80% of tickets so over €120k extra to the band on top of whatever was already in the plan.

One other quick example - solo act, 12000 attended a gig. £30 a ticket and profit after all costs was over 30%.
Potentially at least £100k (before tax) Not bad for one night.

Great information, Del. Here is the thing. I know some of you get upset when Alice opens for Motley or Def Leppard, but he is making a lot of money doing those. The same also applies to doing coheadlining tours. Due to rising costs, many bands can't tour anymore due to lack of demand and costs. Other bands, some even fairly big bands only do fly in weekend dates. Evening With shows are cool but most of those are at small venues and there is more than just Alice and the band to pay. Those stadium, coheadlining shows are what financially keeps Alice able to tour consistently. Personally, I like an opening band doing a 30-45 minute set and then the headliner. I always feel a little shorted when it is Evening With shows because tickets are too expensive these days to only see an hour and a half show.

[Mr. Misdemeanor]

How can anyone say the overall AC tour was predictable? Look at the Ol Black Eyes tour...the incredible Nightmare Castle backdrop? As for the diversity of music...that was a good example...we had Feed My Frankenstein open the show...we had Teenage Frankenstein close the main set...we had Go Man Go, Bed of Nails, Hey Stoopid, He's Back, Roses on White Lace, Steven, Escape, My Stars..so a nice variety was thrown out there...a very Theatrical production...one of his best imo

You make a good point. I have a bootleg from the Nashville show of this tour and you're tight about the nice mix of songs. They also played Rock & Roll and Social Debris. The Hellfest video is great, but I'd have loved to have seen a set from earlier in the tour.

How did "Go Man Go" do with the audience? It feels like a song that would do well in a live setting.

[del]

Picking up on the too expensive to tour point the act I mentioned saw their tour as key to their future. No profit, no future. Potentially either break up or have a complete rethink about their future.

Marillion are an example of a band that had to reinvent how they operated and as a result have one of the closest fan to band relationship I know of. They still tour but they also have fan weekends and that has created incredible loyalty. They also fund albums completely differently to many others. There are ways to make it work but the old ways are dead.

[mr.barlow]

It’s difficult to answer this as there are so many variables. One thing that’s certain though is that nearly all acts are working on increased costs of 20% - 30% or more to tour since Covid so, unless they can simply increase the ticket price to compensate, they have needed to change how they manage a tour. I’ve got an example.

An act which is fairly popular in Northern Europe. Used to tour there every couple of years. 10-15 dates over a 25 - 30 day period. The plan was always to cover all costs, make enough to fund the next project plus put a target amount of money from the profits to go to the bank to live off. They always worked things back to a target % of available tickets sold.

The increased cost to tour meant a rethink last year. 15 dates set but over a shorter period of 19 days, zero use of hotels, smaller crew, much cheaper rehearsal space and two local warm up gigs to replace some rehearsal time and cost (and make a little money instead) no backing singer and much cheaper support act, renegotiated venue rates, new merchandise options and prices etc.

Result - the last tour netted more than the previous one. They played in 2000-4000 venues and aimed to sell @75% of tickets to hit their targets which included putting money in the bank. Anything else was a bonus. Average price for a ticket was about €55. I was told they sold over 80% of tickets so over €120k extra to the band on top of whatever was already in the plan.

One other quick example - solo act, 12000 attended a gig. £30 a ticket and profit after all costs was over 30%.
Potentially at least £100k (before tax) Not bad for one night.

Great post.. thanks for the info. Now I understand why Alice and most hard rock and metal acts tour Europe so much.

[del]

As I said, so many variables so neither of my examples necessarily apply to Alice as I’m sure they have their own budgeting approach.

One more example. A US band that’s been going over ten years. They have toured Europe at least four times I know of. In the UK they play 4-5 gigs max and they also do 10 - 20 plus gigs in Europe. Mainly 500-2000 capacity venues. When they play the US the venues are smaller at 500-1000 but they also play smaller festivals and as support act a lot. Maybe up to 70 gigs a year.

Spoke to one of the band back in July when they were here. They gave up the idea of being a major band very early and then realised they couldn’t make a living from sales or streaming (they have about a million streams a month as far as I can see so there is no money there and the albums scrape the charts everywhere nowadays).

The money is in the gigs and they need new material to support the touring. Four or five new tracks in the recent setlist. They need to tour to keep going and they have built a broad fanbase across several countries here which means they need to see them to keep them loyal. The guy told me that an electrician job pays better but it’s a lifestyle he would never give up as they have real friends in every country they play.

I’ve no idea how they budget but the venue cost for the local gig here is normally at least £6k. Ticket prices were £20. Albums on sale at £15 and T-shirts at £10 {with a small gift added). 900 sellout crowd so £13k plus merch sales left to cover all other costs. Can’t have been much left over for the band so it makes sense to keep touring to make a living.

God knows how smaller bands survive nowadays.

[Babysquid]

I wonder what type of income Alice makes from European touring and if it more/less than that in the USA. I know taxes are off the charts in most European countries so I'm wondering how much of it Alice and company comes home with. I'm sure it's worth his while as he keeps hitting foreign soil but I am curious.

This is a question for those residing in Europe or other foreign countries...can anyone provide any insight on this?

I know "Google is your friend" but I've tried it and can't nail anything down.

You might find this link interesting

https://www.counterculturellp.com/blog/ ... s-artists/

[Saint&Sinner]

pretty sure my head just exploded hahaha
its a nightmare and all the recent doubling on inflation has absolutely crippled bands. I have not seen half as many bands this year as previously. I dont know how smaller bands manage, but somehow smaller artists like blaze bayley have a loyal following and seem to manage to make it work. just hope the accountant is good!