Disappointed by the show: a question

[bigbradwolf]

Sorry Spider no contradiction at all, I said that those traditional elements work well in a freshened up show. e,g, there was a nurse in the Nightmare Returns but she didn't go behind a screen and strip as she did in Theatre of Death, There hve been executons since the band started but not the Iron maiden (is it called) in Theatre of Death. My argument is that this show was disappointing in terms of theatrics simple as.

I'm sure we all want more. More theatrics, more songs on the set, a show that goes on for 3 hours. Alice is my rock hero, my inspiration for music. I play guitar and sing and I write music - thats all emulated from Alice. I for one am grateful that I can go out and watch a rock concert with Alice Cooper in it. Even if Alice was bald and was singing in a karaoke bar, I would still pay to see the guy. The level of performance he and the band put in night after night is exceptional. Add to that the fact Alice is old enough to have retired to a yacht somewhere and yet still performs for his fans and not for money. Everyone's entitled to an opinion but to see Alice with the passion he has up on a stage is enough theatrics for me.

[recoop]

Hi Robbie, can see some of the points you are making and respect your opinions..note you did seem to contradict yourself with regard to disagreeing with my comments then agreeing Alice doesnt need the theatrics(no biggy-I have probably done likewise previously)..havent quoted you verbatem but sure you will see what I am getting at...I think sometimes it is better with theatrics but I guess after 40 years as a fan I don't mind that the music/lyric do the talking..agree there has been build up and changes.. Alice sometimes reminds me of someone who is selling a product in advance- a cure all rocknroll elixir in the mid west..it might turn out different but it always pleases most fans on some level (can understand frustrtion if expecting theatrics though) Cheers

[ThePainAddict]

I guess I have different definitions of a theatrical performance than some of the others posting. It seems like by "theatrical" they mean a show repleat with a lot of props (guillotine, magic screen, dancers, etc.). For me, everytime I have seen Alice on stage I see a very theatrical performance, regardless of the amount of props accompanying him. In fact, I would argue that many times he is most theatrical with limited props (a sword or straightjacket) than when struggling on a spider web or with the cyclops. Of course, I think the covers section force him out of character and hence, not as theatrical.

[kevinuk81]

I thought the 'Magic Screen' was mentioned for this tour?

[scotty]

Robbie you contradict yourself. You complain of so many hold overs to his current show,yet you are upset that there are no "nurse/dancers,executions,snakes"...how would including any of these enhance your expectations for originality?

[A_MichaelUK]

>Fair enough then Andy if it is down to economics as your last post implies

It isn't just down to that, but it's a very important factor.

>the expectation built up by Alice in particular.Why not say when promoting the album "I would love to do a full blown show on the scale of the '75 show but sadly it's too expensive these days".

I know but I as I already explained, the interview where he would make a comment like that is conducted a long time before it actually appears and in between, things can change.

> However, if I went and they didn't play any of the hits as suggested in the interview and promotion I would be baffled.

Again, it isn't that the point is not valid, but it's a different situation.

>Maybe I misread or misconstrued the build up and publicity surrounding WTMN 2 and the tour in which case I only have myself to blame for my disappointment

Well one thing that is disappointing is the idea that some people (not necessarily you) still don't seem to realise that things can change and by the way, there is always a reason for that even if that reason is not apparent.

> but I don't seem to be the only one on this forum who did and I think it's fair to say this tour has divided opinion more than others.

There is no disagreement with that.

[A_MichaelUK]

>The last real creative concert was trash.

Really? How about the "Brutally Live" or "Theater Of Death" tours?

>Hey Stoopid would have been listed but it was a failure and stoped that summer.

Actually, that's not true. It continued in Europe after the north American shows.

>I think one of the reasons the shows have started to lack in set desin and theatrics is that managment is penny pinching.

That is a very misinformed comment and you appear to have missed my earlier comment (it may have been in another thread). The REALITY is that Alice generally plays large theatres or the smaller arenas. To make a more expensive show possible, the ticket price would have to be much higher than it currently is. It is very simple arithmetic. Why would he put on a show that is going to be too expensive to be profitable? Just think about it. He doesn't have an unlimited budget (maybe you do, but he does not).

>I live for a new album

We all do but the last one was not particularly commercially successful. If it was, Alice would be playing bigger arenas.

> and the fans need to have a reason to pay money to come see a show. It need to be NEW, Not a rehash of the same on and a different name.

I don't necessarily disagree, but the majority of "fans" are not hard - core supporters. They are the casual audience who don't generally see Alice every year because Alice doesn't always go to their town on every tour.

>Alice and his team has dropped a ball on two great chances to give us a new concert tour. One with Spider and now with W2MN.

Both of those were not amazingly successful.

>It saddens me because Ive been a fan for a very long time and Alices material music is great. But for some reason they are stuck in HITS Mode and need to stop.

What "HITS"? The majority of the set is not made up of "HITS". I think you mean songs that are very well - known.

[A_MichaelUK]

>I for one was concerned with the covers section. Having been to the first three shows of the tour - I have loved every second of it and am gutted that I have no tickets for future shows.

Here is something that some of you will find SHOCKING: those songs are generally being received very well by the majority of the audience (who are not the kind of people who visit this site).

[A_MichaelUK]

>In fact, I would argue that many times he is most theatrical with limited props (a sword or straightjacket) than when struggling on a spider web or with the cyclops.

That is absolutely correct.

[Marcelocooper]

Andy, I'm not disagreeing with you, but W2MN was one of Alice's best albums when it comes to chart position on the last 20 years. At least on my point of view, it can't be called a commercial failure, can it? I do understand that today charts aren't very much of a deal, people just don't buy music as much as before, and when it comes to sales numbers maybe W2MN isn't a big one, but when you think of the music scene today, couldn't it be called a commercial success?

The only disappointment I have with this tour is it's not comming to Brazil! Maybe if Alice played on Florida this janury I could catch one show at least. Any chances this happens?

[vince_raven]

Over time I've come to realize as an Alice fan that what he says and what actually happens are two different things. Sure, a W2MN tour would have been nice yet we have a few songs from the new album and a covers section. We don't know exactly why the Nightmare 2 tour didn't happen but we have another tour to enjoy for what it is. Yeah, maybe he isn't playing "Thrill My Gorilla" this tour but there's always next year.....right? Right?

What is impressing about this tour is that the powers that be are listening to the fans and making it happen. Sure, the Facebook poll wasn't perfect, but many of the songs that were voted on are now in the show. We wanted "He's Back"...we got it. We wanted more W2MN songs, we got "Caffeine". We wanted the covers trimmed back....2 less cover songs now.

At the end of the day, this is Alice's show. Perhaps he has wanted to add the covers section for some time and has now decided to do it. Yes, he has more of his own songs that could take their place, but this is what he wants to do so much that the name of the tour is based on the idea. My only suggestion is that he could perhaps vary the covers selection from show to show. I've heard him do John Lennon's "Cold Turkey" live before as well as "Riders on the Storm". Also his version of "I'm a Boy" would work as well. It would keep it interesting for the fans and give us a new treat to hear his take on other songs.

[A_MichaelUK]

>Andy, I'm not disagreeing with you, but W2MN was one of Alice's best albums when it comes to chart position on the last 20 years.

But it wasn't bigger than many of the other albums from which many of the other songs are being played. Again, the vast majority of the audience does not consist of fanatical supporters. Alice has to please you, he has to please them and he has to please himself and it isn't easy.

> At least on my point of view, it can't be called a commercial failure, can it?

In relation to what though? In relation to "Welcome To My Nightmare" or in relation to "Dirty Diamonds"?

> but when you think of the music scene today, couldn't it be called a commercial success?

I don't think so. It certainly did better than most of his more recent albums but overall, no.

> Any chances this happens?

I don't know.

[A_MichaelUK]

>What is impressing about this tour is that the powers that be are listening to the fans and making it happen.

Well, in a way, they kind of have regularly been aware of people's views, not just in relation to the current situation.

[dadascot]

I have two points regarding a full blown Welcome's tour. There is no denying that we were led to believe that this is was what was going to happen and that expectation not being fulfilled has led to some people have a feeling of disapointment. Obviously there are things that happen behind the scenes that NONE of us fully know about as well as the economic collapse. I know that the music scene has changed dramatically over the last few years but the tour was usually used to promote the album, usually the lead single was released followed a few weeks later by the album with a tour announced the same day (think Trash, Constrictor). I said in a thread last year that momentum had been lost by not announcing a Welcome tour at the time which would have helped push sales. As to the Album not being successful, he did have his highest placing in the USA charts in years. What I was wondering was how successful was the magazine launch in the UK, was it worthwhile? Did the figures add up? where would he have been placed in the charts?? I don't know if it is possible to find these things out but it would be interesting to know.
A point I would like to make is this idea that the majority of the audience being 'casual fans'. This is impossible to quantify and varies from gig to gig, tour to tour. Having said that I don't agree. From my observations over the years I would say that the majority of the audience ARE Alice fans who have seen him before or now adays children of hard core fans who have been brought up on the legend. Finally even tho this is not the Welcome tour I am still very much looking forward to Edinburgh and excited about the covers section.

[Marcelocooper]

In relation to what though? In relation to "Welcome To My Nightmare" or in relation to "Dirty Diamonds"?

I wasn't comparing it to any of his albums, just thinking of chat, which is the best way to see how the album gone in relation to the musical scene of the day.


I do agree lots of the audience are Casual fans. I actually know just a few hard core fans that saw Alice last tour, and lot's of causal listeners.
There's one thing that don't seem right though. The commercial success or failure of an album can be determined by a tour to support it? Maybe with Alice touring every year it is harder to do so, but I'm not aware of any other band that waits to see if the album went well or not, to, only then, tour supporting it. The whole point of an Album tour is to raise the sales of that album, that's how you make the audience, and by that i mean the casual fan, to get interested in the new album.
I went to a few Alice shows in my life, and of course I knew every single song in the set. But i also went to other bands concerts and I didn't know every song. When I heard a song i liked, I came home thinking of it and I had to get that song.
That's why you play a music in the show, so people get to know it. More importantly, that's why some people go to shows, to know the band better.

But, I do not know the reasons behind it all, and I probably will never know. Maybe, as I said, touring every year makes it more complicated to risk a big load of money on a tour to support an album before you see if it will be commercial possible. Maybe not.
To me, Alice is Alice. I love his show, if I could I would tour with him and see every single show he makes, and I would never get tired.

[revinkevin]

One thing is for sure, this tour has created some different opinions. Usually it's all "the best show ever" or something similar. Not the case this time. I am glad Alice is still around and playing it likes he means it and not just phoning it in like some bands do. That said, IMO, the song list the past decade ain't no big surprise anymore. The few months prior to this tour we were all lead to think W2MN. Did not happen. We were all lead to think big production with some company working on some elaborate sets. Did not happen. That will lead to disappointment. Especially since those things were coming out of Alice's mouth. That ain't cool. And with a song catalog as deep as Alice has, with a fan base that spans decades and generations, I don't get such a large amount of cover songs with this tour. Hopefully he will get that out of his system so we won't get a new release of cover songs as has been hinted. His band is great. Write some stuff with them. A Alice / Orianthi batch of songs could be killer. Write some more stuff with the Mike, Neal and Dennis. That has worked pretty good before.

[A_MichaelUK]

> I said in a thread last year that momentum had been lost by not announcing a Welcome tour at the time which would have helped push sales.

Again, this was all discussed last year, as you know. You no longer need to play songs from an album live to promote it. Anyone who wants to hear new music before they buy it, can do that very easily without those songs being played live. Obviously, you've acknowledged this. The problem is that most people who go to see an Alice show generally want to hear familiar material. You (not you personally) can't complain that cover songs are played but then complain that unfamiliar new songs are not played. Alice does not always go to the same city every year so the people who saw him in Cardiff aren't necessarily going to be the same people who saw him in Manchester for example.

>As to the Album not being successful, he did have his highest placing in the USA charts in years.

Again, it's all relative. So many other artists released albums which did much better.

> What I was wondering was how successful was the magazine launch in the UK, was it worthwhile? Did the figures add up?

You would need to ask "Classic Rock" that.

>A point I would like to make is this idea that the majority of the audience being 'casual fans'. This is impossible to quantify and varies from gig to gig, tour to tour.

Yes, that's kind of true, but if the shows were mainly consisting of people who were not "'casual fans'", then there would be a greater demand for tickets and if that happened, Alice wouldn't be playing Usher Hall - he'd be playing Hampden Park or something.

>From my observations over the years I would say that the majority of the audience ARE Alice fans who have seen him before or now

No - one is saying they are not, otherwise they wouldn't have even bought a ticket, but for many people at the concerts, he isn't going to necessarily be their favourite artist like he is for most of us who come to this site. You just can't assume that.

[A_MichaelUK]

>I wasn't comparing it to any of his albums, just thinking of chat, which is the best way to see how the album gone in relation to the musical scene of the day.

It was certainly well - received by Alice's audience and by the critics but that doesn't make it commercially successful, of course.

>I do agree lots of the audience are Casual fans. I actually know just a few hard core fans that saw Alice last tour, and lot's of causal listeners.

Exactly.

>There's one thing that don't seem right though. The commercial success or failure of an album can be determined by a tour to support it?

Not since Napster and all that.

> Maybe with Alice touring every year it is harder to do so, but I'm not aware of any other band that waits to see if the album went well or not, to, only then, tour supporting it.

The probably is that most of those artists have a bigger audience though so they can do what they want and the ones who have a small audience have to play the new stuff because they have no hits which means an artist like Alice is stuck in the middle.

>The whole point of an Album tour is to raise the sales of that album, that's how you make the audience, and by that i mean the casual fan, to get interested in the new album.

That was in the past - now it is different. A "casual fan" does not need to go to a show to hear new songs. If he cares that much, he can find that stuff online very easily. I really don't want to have to explain this again.

>But i also went to other bands concerts and I didn't know every song. When I heard a song i liked, I came home thinking of it and I had to get that song.

What about in 1995 when David Bowie played mainly obscure album tracks and very few of the hit singles? A lot of people were reportedly kind of bored by that. Would you like that to happen to Alice as well? It would be a brave thing to do but it is risky.

>But, I do not know the reasons behind it all, and I probably will never know.

It isn't like there is any big mystery. It is just that you are seeing it from the perspective of the audience (which is natural) but when you are in the middle of it, like the artist, the band and the crew are, you can see things from a different perspective. You don't have to agree with the way things happen but you can, at least, understand why things happen the way they do.

>Maybe, as I said, touring every year makes it more complicated to risk a big load of money on a tour to support an album before you see if it will be commercial possible. Maybe not.

It is always an issue, so you are right about that.

[Lucius Morthem]

The problem with casual fans is that EVERY casual fan I Know...Know him for the theatrics and the go to see that...Maybe that'll be a problem this tour

[A_MichaelUK]

>Especially since those things were coming out of Alice's mouth. That ain't cool.

As I have said before, those are all valid points but for the billionth time, the explanation for all of that has already been given.