Disappointed by the show: a question

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Robbie
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Disappointed by the show: a question

Post by Robbie » Sat Oct 27, 2012 3:54 pm

Although a lot has been commented on aready I hope the moderators will agree that the emphasis of this post warrants a new thread-apologies in advance if you feel I should have posted under the others threads.
Let me say at the outset that Alice Cooper has been my musical hero for forty years and I have seen nineteen shows in the UK since 1982. I purposely did not find out much about the new show before going to Wolverhampton althoughI had heard a little about the inclusion of a number of covers. I went full of excitement and anticipation. I came away feeling disappointed and for the first time deflated.
Maybe I expected too much but I thought the new show was going to feature some new props ideas etc. What did we get? A curtain drop opening again- is that the fifth one on the run? I am fortunate enough to remember Alice coming out of a locker, from a cell under the drum riser, coming along a hydraulic walkway that had just descended, coming out of a bin, being introduced by a man with a weird legless torso etc. this was followed by the sword with the dollar bills (again), the fake diamonds (again)the crutch (again) the whip (again). The best prop was Franken Alice again not new. I know these have been staples of Alice's shows for years but only three years ago he freshened the whole show up on Theatre of Death and they worked well amidst all the other stuff. This show was a pale shadow of that. No extra dancer / nurse, no snake, no execution, no impaling, no high platform as on Vengeance to add drama and spectacle. As an Alice fan I have to say in my opinion it looked tired and dated.As for the section with the cover songs the less said the better.This for me is the crux Alice seems to want to emphasise the band and music more than the spectacle.
An Alice Cooper concert for me is as much about the visual presentation as the music. He was the first to do it and is still the best at doing it. I know he has done stripped down shows before (Bare Bones and School's out for Summer 97)but with the relative success of WTMN 2 I felt that the time was ripe for scaling the show up not stripping it back and that was what seemed to be hinted at since the album came out. So to my question: is it down to economics or logistics (how about using LED technology?) or a reluctance at his age to do the kind of visual presentation that made his name? I am just baffled by what appears to me a lost opportunity. Will Theatre of death be the last truly great Alice show?

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Re: Disappointed by the show: a question

Post by Lucius Morthem » Sat Oct 27, 2012 4:25 pm

Let's hope it's not, I Feel Alice still got a lot to give us (the fans) , but, Don't know, as I Understand he really wants to give more emphasis in the band and not theatrics, in lots and lots of interviews he has said theatrics are the icing of the cake...maybe he doesn't want that at least for a tour...he's been doing gigs like 100 club and whiskey, to interact with the audience...maybe he wants to interact more and with his Alice character he can't, aybe he's kind of tired of bored of not interacting with the audience, or maybe he wants this tour to give the theatrics a Break, as the bare bones tour... Let's expect Kyler will read this and he'll inform Alice of our thoughts...or maybe someone could tell us " Hey Alice wants a Break, the next tour will be a Theatrical one, etc.etcetc...)

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Re: Disappointed by the show: a question

Post by Somwhere In Auckland » Sat Oct 27, 2012 5:36 pm

It's easy to get disappointed with the lack of theatrics at an Alice show because it's what you EXPECT.
But for me the biggest disappointment was Alice himself was the one over last 6 months talking up a new Nightmare show to be quite theatrical and contain quite a bit of new songs. All I can think of is he changed his mind yet again? A bit like when we were "supposed" to get a spider tour but instead we got Theater Of Death.

Alice is the master of theatrics and now days with just about every band doing over the top shows I feel Alice is getting left behind and his show is starting to look dated. I too just hope there is one more show full of theatrics and different intro ideas. Maybe someone needs to come to him with an idea and write a show like Theater of Death again?

Alice has an amazing band right now and no matter how many theatrics he uses the band is going to shine regardless.

This tour just seems strange to me. Covers and No theatrics wasn't something I expected at all.

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Re: Disappointed by the show: a question

Post by Lucius Morthem » Sat Oct 27, 2012 6:48 pm

Exactly!

I Don't know what happens with him...he also talk A LOT of Former Lee Warmer...and he also said that he'd like to play Scarlet And Sheba!

bUT THE MOST IMPORTAN HERE IS...wHY NO THEATRICS ?

There is NO concept in this tour....There is no reason to get him in the straight jacket that to me was kind of weird..
The Setlist is no Problem, theproblem is the show..The Why he is doing this...What crossed his mind and made him change everything he was talking about...Maybe Bob Ezrin? he did the last time :/

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Re: Disappointed by the show: a question

Post by patrick » Sat Oct 27, 2012 7:35 pm

If there are less theatrics,then Alice doesn't have to do all the hits once more that were illlustrated in the usual way and hè could have brought more from the W2MNM2 ...hè still can !
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Re: Disappointed by the show: a question

Post by recoop » Sat Oct 27, 2012 7:41 pm

I have not seen the latest show..but Alice could win many fans over just showing the power of his music.. I think he has just achieved this via Jools Holland Later show - the theatrics are great but he doesnt need them- for me everyone knows Alice is a villain and he can get off with spontaneous incarceration in a straight jacket- Alice Cooper is the concept- his stage history requires punishment on stage- he is free to do what he wants-and its ok to ask what crossed his mind etc but I can accept what he serves up- he is large in the consciousness of the music world - he can be a villain or just play ot straight..its only rocknroll etc
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Re: Disappointed by the show: a question

Post by Desperado22 » Sun Oct 28, 2012 6:07 am

I really don't mind about the theatrics. They're fun, but as long as the music is still great, then I'm not concerned that there are less of them on this tour. Besides, there are still penty of spectacular effects i this show.

Maybe I'm just easily pleased lol.
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Re: Disappointed by the show: a question

Post by del » Sun Oct 28, 2012 6:35 am

I too am a fan of 40 years and will see the show tonight at Wembley and in Edinburgh on Halloween. I have no doubt that he will not disappoint as I go for the music and the band is simply great at the moment.

Tonight is gig 27 and I have never been disappointed. Sure, Alice himself has set false expectations for this tour and I just don't understand why he does that so often. I too was looking forward to perhaps a 6 W2MN track section as it would have been a blast.

I can forgive him though because if I remember back to the late 90's I was convinced the flame was going out and worried that each tour I saw would be the last. I was massively relieved when Brutal Planet came out and everything stepped up a gear. Never could I have imagined him returning as often as he has over the last few years and I always feel privileged to see the master at work.

I'd rather have little/no prop Alice than no Alice at all!! Anyway, its time to leave for the airport with the usual nervous energy and massive anticipation...tonight will be FANTASTIC as usual!!! :alice:

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Re: Disappointed by the show: a question

Post by wind_up_toy » Sun Oct 28, 2012 8:04 am

del wrote:I can forgive him though because if I remember back to the late 90's I was convinced the flame was going out and worried that each tour I saw would be the last. Never could I have imagined him returning as often as he has over the last few years and I always feel privileged to see the master at work.

I'd rather have little/no prop Alice than no Alice at all!!
Despite some dissapointment with the new tour, we should all remind ourselves of these wise words. The glass is half full not half empty :rock:
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Re: Disappointed by the show: a question

Post by A_MichaelUK » Sun Oct 28, 2012 2:53 pm

>Maybe I expected too much but I thought the new show was going to feature some new props ideas etc.

Does NOBODY read any previous posts?! This was answered three times in the last week or something. Yet again, it's mainly because things and plans change.
> So to my question: is it down to economics or logistics

It is both usually.

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Re: Disappointed by the show: a question

Post by A_MichaelUK » Sun Oct 28, 2012 2:54 pm

>Despite some dissapointment with the new tour, we should all remind ourselves of these wise words. The glass is half full not half empty

Exactly. Maybe people would prefer that Alice just retired from touring. Would they really be happier if that happened?

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Re: Disappointed by the show: a question

Post by Robbie » Sun Oct 28, 2012 3:00 pm

Thanks for all the replies guys-it's what makes this discussion forum a great place. A chance to air views and opinions with other fans.Just to pick up on a couple of points.
Somewhere in Aukland wrote:" I feel Alice is getting left behind and his show is starting to look dated" I agree totally. Sophisticated visual effects, pyrotechnics and theatrical effects are routine on shows like X factor each week (hideous though the programme is). The bar has been raised by modern technology; could Alice not embrace it to produce an updated Nightmare show that would not only have the diehard fans blown away but also the more casual "roll up" punter?
He also wrote: Alice has an amazing band...and no matter how many theatrics he uses the band is going to shine regardless"I agree again. He always has great musicians and I have never felt they have been overshadowed. They simply enhance what is going on.
Lucius wrote: "There is no reason to get him in the straitjacket..to me was kind of weird"Agree again. Equally when he got out out of it he didn't strangle anyone and that looked flat too.
Lucius wrote: "The setlist is no problem, the problem is the show" Totally agree 100% especially after the comments made that suggested something very different.
Recoop wrote:"The theatrics are great but he doesn't need them"
I disagree Recoop. Maybe he doesn't need them but the shows when he has them are in my opinion are always better and stand out in my mind far more than bare bones etc.I also think his shows when he uses them appeal more to audience members with less knowledge of his back catalogue. Basically if they don't know a song they watch and get drawn into the action taking place. I know my daughter did at her first Alice gig (TOD).
Del wrote: "worried that each tour would be the last. Never could I have imagined him returning as often as he has...."Maybe that's the problem Del. Quantity over quality. I would have preferred a longer gap between the tours if it resulted in what I regard as Alice's undeniable genius. A marriage of great songs presented with a unique and truly original visual flair. It's this combination which I believe will be his legacy to the history of rock.

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Re: Disappointed by the show: a question

Post by A_MichaelUK » Sun Oct 28, 2012 3:17 pm

> Sophisticated visual effects, pyrotechnics and theatrical effects are routine on shows like X factor each week

They have huge budgets though. They also don't do world tours either. That is a completely different situation.

> could Alice not embrace it to produce an updated Nightmare show that would not only have the diehard fans blown away but also the more casual "roll up" punter?

Of course that would be possible. Would you be prepared to pay, say, three times what you're paying now for a ticket, though? Would "the more casual "roll up" punter" be prepared to do that?

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Re: Disappointed by the show: a question

Post by Robbie » Sun Oct 28, 2012 3:46 pm

Fair enough then Andy if it is down to economics as your last post implies but the difference for me is in the expectation built up by Alice in particular.Why not say when promoting the album "I would love to do a full blown show on the scale of the '75 show but sadly it's too expensive these days". No problem with that.
I had read the previous posts were you addressed the question of why there have to be changes and I accept things change in the planning process too but to illustrate my point last week Jim Kerr was interviewed about the forthcoming Simple Minds tour on which he said they would be playing all the hits as opposed to some tours where they play more obscure material. Let's say I bought a ticket, went to the show they play all their hits but don't play "Belfast Child" for example. You later hear that the key no longer suits him that's fine as a change within an overall framework. However, if I went and they didn't play any of the hits as suggested in the interview and promotion I would be baffled.
Maybe I misread or misconstrued the build up and publicity surrounding WTMN 2 and the tour in which case I only have myself to blame for my disappointment but I don't seem to be the only one on this forum who did and I think it's fair to say this tour has divided opinion more than others.

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Re: Disappointed by the show: a question

Post by magicchiz » Sun Oct 28, 2012 4:42 pm

Well for whats its worth here is my two cents. I am in agreement with the majority. The show is dated and has been in HITs mode way too long.

The last real creative concert was trash. Hey Stoopid would have been listed but it was a failure and stoped that summer.

I think one of the reasons the shows have started to lack in set desin and theatrics is that managment is penny pinching. with the economy I can understand. Although they are concerned with making things portable and light weight. Look at the Frankenstien Making Monsters. Shep and everyone dropped the box Distortions had made because it was too big or heavy.

Have we lost the days of the stage set? Remember Raise your fist and yell's Drawbridge.

So there are multiplue issues. Set design, Theatric's, and then there is the lack of the new material being used.

I like the hits but enough is enough. I live for a new album and the fans need to have a reason to pay money to come see a show. It need to be NEW, Not a rehash of the same on and a different name.

Alice and his team has dropped a ball on two great chances to give us a new concert tour. One with Spider and now with W2MN.

It saddens me because Ive been a fan for a very long time and Alices material music is great. But for some reason they are stuck in HITS Mode and need to stop.

Thanks for reading.
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Re: Disappointed by the show: a question

Post by bigbradwolf » Sun Oct 28, 2012 5:06 pm

Personally I don't see how you can be disappointed with the show. I for one was concerned with the covers section. Having been to the first three shows of the tour - I have loved every second of it and am gutted that I have no tickets for future shows.

Hurry up and tour again soon Alice!

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Re: Disappointed by the show: a question

Post by The Spider » Sun Oct 28, 2012 5:12 pm

" This show was a pale shadow of that. No extra dancer / nurse, no snake, no execution, no impaling, no high platform as on Vengeance to add drama and spectacle. As an Alice fan I have to say in my opinion it looked tired and dated."

Sorry, I may be missing the point but, you're saying Alice should do new and interesting things, when everything you mentioned there he's been doing since the beginning. And the snake has just been added back into the show last night. So you're just contradicting yourself there.

You want Alice to shake things up a bit, surely he's done that with the covers section and doing less theatrics?
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Re: Disappointed by the show: a question

Post by Robbie » Sun Oct 28, 2012 6:31 pm

Bigbradwolf wrote: "personally I can't see how you can be disappointed with
the show"
Read my first post. Lack of theatrical elements supporting WTMN2 along with a dramatic visual show as simple as that. I rightly or wrongly misread what was being suggested in the build up/ promotion of the album. That is why I personally was disappointed.Had it not been suggested or hinted at therewould have been no disappointment. I was not disappointed by Bare bones. I might not have liked it but I knew what I was getting before I went.

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Re: Disappointed by the show: a question

Post by Robbie » Sun Oct 28, 2012 6:42 pm

Thanks Magicchiz for your comments. I am not sure I would go back as far as you for the last great tours- Brutal Planet and Theatre of Death were both excellent in my view, but you hit the spot when you talk about the stage sets for those mid eighties tours, is the set design e.g the drawbridge so prohibitively expensive?

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Re: Disappointed by the show: a question

Post by Robbie » Sun Oct 28, 2012 6:48 pm

Sorry Spider no contradiction at all, I said that those traditional elements work well in a freshened up show. e,g, there was a nurse in the Nightmare Returns but she didn't go behind a screen and strip as she did in Theatre of Death, There hve been executons since the band started but not the Iron maiden (is it called) in Theatre of Death. My argument is that this show was disappointing in terms of theatrics simple as.

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