SOUND CLIPS

nimsowner · Post by **nimsowner** » Fri Jul 11, 2008 10:01 pm

Shoesalesman wrote:I have a question here, having not heard the album yet...
Alice has used humor to sing about some really hard-hitting stuff over the years, so is this the case here, do you think?

I don't think this is the case. The lyrics are themselves pretty dark. The sound of songs not necessarily so. What I have wondered is if there was an intentional attempt to make the songs sound schizo to match the schizo of the the spider.

I reallly like stuff like how part of the spiders fantasy was fantasizing about the victim fantasizing about what was going to happen to them.

I have listened to the album umpteen times and I like it a lot. I wouldn't compare it to any other of his albums because it isn't like any of them.

Alicehunter2000 · Post by **Alicehunter2000** » Fri Jul 11, 2008 10:47 pm

While Heaven Wept wrote:
steven_crayn wrote:
WickedYoungMan wrote:
That's a rather far out example. We're not discussing World War 2 or the holocaust or the slaughtering of millions (and to be honest I take some offense at you using that particular example,) we're talking about someone not like a collection of music. Quite a big difference. His opinion won't result in people dying.

But he doesn't like the album, simple. His views shouldn't have to meet a certain criteria nor will it make him anymore right or wrong in the end. Not sure what you're looking for. No use trying to "corner" someone on something like that.

Shouldn't matter. Lyrics are lyrics.

They are repeated 12 times in one setting? Funny. Let's be honest here, you said that this was Alice's best songwriting this century. So you are saying the chorus I quoted beats that of any thing of his in the past 10 years?

I don't think I "failed" to do anything. I supplied a portion of what I thought were subpar lyrics. Simple.

I never said the lyrics were "garbage."

Not sure why that's "funny." They are okay. But outnumbered IMHO.
I was using an extreme example to make the point that opinions whatever they are can be challenged, even if you don't think so.

The lyrics are lyrics repeat line chorus argument doesn't stand up, are you telling me Elected isn't a great lyric just because on the chorus we have the word Elected repeated over and over?

Now can you see the importance of the full context of lyrics?
The mature response would have been to apologise for comparing an Alice Cooper album to one of the worst atrocities of the 20th Century. Instead you insist on attempting to justify your criticism of someone elses opinion.

I would prefer it if you could provide us with your opinions rather than slamming ours in such a disrespectful manner.

I think there should be a limit onto how many quotes of quotes you are allowed

WickedYoungMan · Post by **WickedYoungMan** » Fri Jul 11, 2008 11:58 pm

steven_crayn wrote:I was using an extreme example to make the point that opinions whatever they are can be challenged, even if you don't think so.

Right, but you were going a bit too far IMHO. He doesn't like it, deal. You were hoping to prove his opinion wrong or prove that he was wrong somehow just how you were trying to "corner" him, which is wrong itself.

The lyrics are lyrics repeat line chorus argument doesn't stand up,

To you..... One of the examples was HALF the song.

are you telling me Elected isn't a great lyric just because on the chorus we have the word Elected repeated over and over?

The word isn't repeated over and over and over 14 times in one setting.

Now can you see the importance of the full context of lyrics?

Lyric is a lyric.

While Heaven Wept · Post by **While Heaven Wept** » Sat Jul 12, 2008 2:29 pm

Sorry for the excessive quotes guys, i'm not entirely sure what i'm doing on forums so please bare with me! haha

Anyway, on a slightly more refreshing note it has to be said that a few of the songs are starting to grow on me a little, especially Wake The Dead. I still cant understand where he's coming from with Salvation though

RemarkablyInsincere · Post by **RemarkablyInsincere** » Sat Jul 12, 2008 2:41 pm

While Heaven Wept wrote:I still cant understand where he's coming from with Salvation though

Not sure I understand why you're having so much trouble with 'Salvation' since it's the most 'classic' sounding track on the entire album.... and a good one at that.

To me, it sounds like something that really could have come off of "Welcome To My Nightmare", "Goes To Hell' or "Lace and Whiskey".... it really has the mid-70s "Ezrin Sound" more than anything Alice has done in quite a while.

steven_crayn · Post by **steven_crayn** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 7:52 am

Alicehunter2000 wrote:
While Heaven Wept wrote:
steven_crayn wrote:
I was using an extreme example to make the point that opinions whatever they are can be challenged, even if you don't think so.

The lyrics are lyrics repeat line chorus argument doesn't stand up, are you telling me Elected isn't a great lyric just because on the chorus we have the word Elected repeated over and over?

Now can you see the importance of the full context of lyrics?
The mature response would have been to apologise for comparing an Alice Cooper album to one of the worst atrocities of the 20th Century. Instead you insist on attempting to justify your criticism of someone elses opinion.

I would prefer it if you could provide us with your opinions rather than slamming ours in such a disrespectful manner.
I think there should be a limit onto how many quotes of quotes you are allowed

Can I quote you on that?

steven_crayn · Post by **steven_crayn** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 8:28 am

WickedYoungMan wrote:
steven_crayn wrote:I was using an extreme example to make the point that opinions whatever they are can be challenged, even if you don't think so.
Right, but you were going a bit too far IMHO. He doesn't like it, deal. You were hoping to prove his opinion wrong or prove that he was wrong somehow just how you were trying to "corner" him, which is wrong itself.

The lyrics are lyrics repeat line chorus argument doesn't stand up,
To you..... One of the examples was HALF the song.

are you telling me Elected isn't a great lyric just because on the chorus we have the word Elected repeated over and over?
The word isn't repeated over and over and over 14 times in one setting.

Now can you see the importance of the full context of lyrics?
Lyric is a lyric.

I'm not tring to corner anybody so please spare me the sanctimony, I think you are getting a bit paranoid.

If people don't rate the album that is their opinion, my problem is statements like the lyrics are bland, not very good etc.. you can have an opinion but back it up if you are going to question Alice Cooper as a lyricist.

Simplistic responses like "lyrics are lyrics" is not only pretty childish, but not true.

Context is everything in a lyric.

For example using your stance, If you just saw the words

I love the dead
I love the dead
I love the dead

I love the dead
I love the dead
I love the dead

I love the dead
I love the dead
I love the dead

I love the dead
I love the dead
I love the dead

on a bit of paper using your argument, you would think that isn't a very good lyric, it's just repetition.

However, if you were to see them in their full context with the verse, we can see the bigger picture

I love the dead before they're cold
Their blueing flesh for me to hold
Cadaver eyes upon me see... nothing

I love the dead before they rise
No farewells, no goodbyes
I never even knew your now rotting face
While friends and lovers mourn your silly grave
I have other uses for you Darling

Why can't you see that your selective use of repetition to suit your argument falls down?

Rock lyrics don't usually lend themselves to iambic pentameter (Shakespeare's primary meter) you could come up with a Macbeth 12 bar Blues (by repeating the first line stanza)

I will not be afraid of death or bane
I will not be afraid of death or bane
Till Birnam Forest come to Dunsinane

The point being the written word though often it can stand alone, as a song lyric is best seen not only in its full lyrical context but musically as well.

WickedYoungMan · Post by **WickedYoungMan** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 8:51 am

steven_crayn wrote:I'm not tring to corner anybody so please spare me the sanctimony, I think you are getting a bit paranoid.

Umm.. no.

If people don't rate the album that is their opinion, my problem is statements like the lyrics are bland, not very good etc.. you can have an opinion but back it up if you are going to question Alice Cooper as a lyricist.

No, I don't think so. Just because someone doesn't care for certain lyrics does not translate to that person "Questioning Alice as a lyricist" and is rather silly to think so. Let's get real here.

Simplistic responses like "lyrics are lyrics" is not only pretty childish

Give me a break.

The point being the written word though often it can stand alone, as a song lyric is best seen not only in its full lyrical context but musically as well.

Okay, and seeing the other content of the songs changed nothing in my opinion. That's all there is to it.

steven_crayn · Post by **steven_crayn** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 9:50 am

WickedYoungMan wrote:
steven_crayn wrote:I'm not tring to corner anybody so please spare me the sanctimony, I think you are getting a bit paranoid.
Umm.. no.

If people don't rate the album that is their opinion, my problem is statements like the lyrics are bland, not very good etc.. you can have an opinion but back it up if you are going to question Alice Cooper as a lyricist.
No, I don't think so. Just because someone doesn't care for certain lyrics does not translate to that person "Questioning Alice as a lyricist" and is rather silly to think so. Let's get real here.

Simplistic responses like "lyrics are lyrics" is not only pretty childish
Give me a break.

The point being the written word though often it can stand alone, as a song lyric is best seen not only in its full lyrical context but musically as well.
Okay, and seeing the other content of the songs changed nothing in my opinion. That's all there is to it.

You mean all there is to it is that you can't argue with the point I made about the example of I Love The Dead having a repetitive chorus which if taken out of context doesn't give the full picture painted by the verse.

If you are going to criticise the lyrics on ACAS you need to do it in their full context, otherwise it's like listening to 30 second soundclips, you don't hear or see the bigger picture.

WickedYoungMan · Post by **WickedYoungMan** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 10:03 am

steven_crayn wrote:You mean all there is to it is that you can't argue with the point I made about the example of I Love The Dead having a repetitive chorus which if taken out of context doesn't give the full picture painted by the verse.

Steven, I'm not sure why you're having a hard time understanding what "opinions" are. There isn't anything to "prove," no matter how many which ways you attempt to spin it.

If you are going to criticise the lyrics on ACAS you need to do it in their full context,

I'll do that in a forthcoming review in a few weeks.

steven_crayn · Post by **steven_crayn** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 10:13 am

WickedYoungMan wrote:
steven_crayn wrote:You mean all there is to it is that you can't argue with the point I made about the example of I Love The Dead having a repetitive chorus which if taken out of context doesn't give the full picture painted by the verse.
Steven, I'm not sure why you're having a hard time understanding what "opinions" are. There isn't anything to "prove," no matter how many which ways you attempt to spin it.

If you are going to criticise the lyrics on ACAS you need to do it in their full context,
I'll do that in a forthcoming review in a few weeks.

You are the one having a hard time accepting your criticisms of the repetition of chorus lyrics on ACAS as a basis as to why you thought the lyrics weren't very good don't stand up, because chorus lyrics often repeat as they did on say I Love The Dead.

If you don't like the lyrics fine, but don't try and justify your argument that the lyrics aren't very good just on the basis that a chorus repeats the same line several times.

WickedYoungMan · Post by **WickedYoungMan** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 10:18 am

steven_crayn wrote:You are the one having a hard time accepting your criticisms of the repetition of chorus lyrics on ACAS as a basis as to why you thought the lyrics weren't very good don't stand up, because chorus lyrics often repeat as they did on say I Love The Dead.

No.

If you don't like the lyrics fine, but don't try and justify your argument that the lyrics aren't very good just on the basis that a chorus repeats the same line several times.

How about you let me decide what I base my opinions, okay?

Good.

steven_crayn · Post by **steven_crayn** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 11:42 am

WickedYoungMan wrote:
steven_crayn wrote:You are the one having a hard time accepting your criticisms of the repetition of chorus lyrics on ACAS as a basis as to why you thought the lyrics weren't very good don't stand up, because chorus lyrics often repeat as they did on say I Love The Dead.
No.

If you don't like the lyrics fine, but don't try and justify your argument that the lyrics aren't very good just on the basis that a chorus repeats the same line several times.
How about you let me decide what I base my opinions, okay?

Good.

You have already decided to base your opinions on ignorance having dismissed lyrics on ACAS because of chorus repeated lines using out of context quotes which have also occured in the past on songs like I Love The Dead, yet I hope you would agree you can't dismiss I Love The Dead as a bad lyric just because it repeats the same line in the chorus, something you are doing with ACAS.

Now if you wanted to debate the lyrics on ACAS then why not do it in their full context?

The truth being you know your "argument" about repeat chorus lines as a basis for dismissing the lyrics is flawed. Hence your "its my opinion" get out clause.

No one is saying you can't have an opinion, but if you try to justify it like you have done, expect it to be challenged.

WickedYoungMan · Post by **WickedYoungMan** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 12:00 pm

steven_crayn wrote:You have already decided to base your opinions on ignorance having dismissed lyrics on ACAS because of chorus repeated lines using out of context quotes which have also occured in the past on songs like I Love The Dead, yet I hope you would agree you can't dismiss I Love The Dead as a bad lyric just because it repeats the same line in the chorus, something you are doing with ACAS.

No.

Now if you wanted to debate the lyrics on ACAS then why not do it in their full context?

Did.

The truth being you know your "argument" about repeat chorus lines as a basis for dismissing the lyrics is flawed. Hence your "its my opinion" get out clause.

No.

No one is saying you can't have an opinion, but if you try to justify it like you have done, expect it to be challenged.

No.

Si · Post by Si » Mon Jul 14, 2008 2:20 pm

Round and round we go....

steven_crayn · Post by **steven_crayn** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 2:38 pm

WickedYoungMan wrote:
steven_crayn wrote:You have already decided to base your opinions on ignorance having dismissed lyrics on ACAS because of chorus repeated lines using out of context quotes which have also occured in the past on songs like I Love The Dead, yet I hope you would agree you can't dismiss I Love The Dead as a bad lyric just because it repeats the same line in the chorus, something you are doing with ACAS.
No.

Now if you wanted to debate the lyrics on ACAS then why not do it in their full context?
Did.

The truth being you know your "argument" about repeat chorus lines as a basis for dismissing the lyrics is flawed. Hence your "its my opinion" get out clause.
No.

No one is saying you can't have an opinion, but if you try to justify it like you have done, expect it to be challenged.
No.

You didn't debate the lyrics in their full context and the simplistic No responses shows you don't want to continue this debate as you know you have lost the argument.

steven15322 · Post by **steven15322** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:00 pm

Where we stop nobody knows...

You trap...you kill...you eat

nimsowner · Post by **nimsowner** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 10:29 pm

Si wrote:Round and round we go....

steven15322 wrote:Where we stop nobody knows...

Egdar Winter?