Social Debris

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Re: Social Debris

Post by concolz » Thu Feb 11, 2021 3:15 pm

I've listened to Social Debris a dozen times now, and am still of the opinion that the song's an inconsequential piece of polished fluff.

The last time he really stretched out was Might As Well Be On Mars; thirty years ago. The last time he released an album that was truly different was Brutal Planet; twenty-one years ago. Post-BP it's been a decidedly mixed bag. W2MN was a sprawling mess; fracturing mid-point, then collapsing under the weight of its self-important hubris. Paranormal gets off to a cracking start, but the sheer ordinariness of the mid-point songs drags it down to an "okay, but" response.

The increasing obsession with outside writers, copious 'guests', covers, chucking a couple of 'crumbs' to the OGs, plus snubbing the touring band (Henriksen excepted) is just baffling. It's dissipating, instead of consolidating. Alice ends up sounding like his own 'various artists' compilation.

There's no reason his touring band couldn't have adequately fulfilled playing, and compositional, duties on the last couple of albums. They'd better feature somewhere on Detroit Stories, or I'm not buying it out of principle - even if it does surpass my somewhat limited expectations (which I doubt).

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Re: Social Debris

Post by Ted Sallis » Thu Feb 11, 2021 7:10 pm

Si wrote:
Thu Feb 11, 2021 12:34 am
Ted Sallis wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 10:58 pm
I would pick Mick Mashbir as he helped write at least 1 ACG song: Hard Hearted Alice. I don't see how Zombie (if you're referring to Rob Zombie) and the 'rest of' the touring band would be helpful but maybe I just require some further explanation regarding thrashing out the details.
Ted
I think you missed the point a little?
We are NOT talking about making a new ACG band album here, just writing more Alice Cooper-esque material for future "solo" albums (and as proven just using Neal, Mike or DD co-written songs doesn't seem to be doing what we're talking about). I'm not sure getting a credit on ONE AC song 50 years ago, and playing as a sideman on two tours, would give Mick any great insight.

Roxie on the other hand has been with Alice for over 25 years AND has a proven track record as a good songwriter - although not in the style we are probably looking for.

Rob Zombie certainly has an ear for what we are looking for (it's not his own musical style, but he has the imagination that could be useful), and as a major fan maybe him coming in with suggestions at the end of the writing process could bare fruit.

The current band would be for playing on the actual album, they deserve it, with the ACG guesting as has become normal.
Thank you for your reply Si, and that's why I stated that maybe I just required some further explanation as it does appear that I may have missed the point a little. So D&C was simply stating what in his view would be the best (or at least a great) way to write more Alice Cooper-esque material for future "solo" albums and with that in mind, I agree that Roxie has the playing and writing experience with AC that Mashbir certainly doesn't. RZ could be useful in the capacity that you suggest too.

Ted

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Re: Social Debris

Post by Daggers & Contracts » Thu Feb 11, 2021 11:16 pm

mestreech wrote:
Thu Feb 11, 2021 2:39 am
I would like to get Rick Rubin in for a take with Alice.
I like what Rick did with Johnny Cash.
But, I have a CD single of Remixes of "We Will Rock You/We Are The Champions" by Queen
That states "Ruined By Rick Rubin" - none are better than the original. :x
Totally "tongue in cheek" but he loved the original also!
"The credit that I took on it was “Ruined by Rick Rubin,” for that reason. I was thinking, “What are the more surreal, bizarre choices I could make to play up the point that we’re not supposed to be remixing classic songs?” The message of it was, “Don’t do this.”
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Re: Social Debris

Post by guttertrash » Fri Feb 12, 2021 12:36 am

I told Ryan one time that I thought him and Nicke Andersson (The Hellacopters, Imperial State Electric, Entombed) would be able to make a killer album together, so if I had a dream scenario for one more ACG album, it would be to bring in those two with DD, MB, and NS to write together. I’d like production to be handled by Chips Kiesbye who produced The Hellacopters last four albums, Michael Monroe’s Blackout States, as well as most of The Nomads albums since the early 90s with Nicke working with him.

And to end with a little bit of trivia, Nicke’s band Imperial State Electric actually grew out of a project with the other band members called Cold Ethyl.

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Re: Social Debris

Post by mestreech » Fri Feb 12, 2021 2:34 am

Daggers & Contracts wrote:
Thu Feb 11, 2021 11:16 pm
mestreech wrote:
Thu Feb 11, 2021 2:39 am
I would like to get Rick Rubin in for a take with Alice.
I like what Rick did with Johnny Cash.
But, I have a CD single of Remixes of "We Will Rock You/We Are The Champions" by Queen
That states "Ruined By Rick Rubin" - none are better than the original. :x
Totally "tongue in cheek" but he loved the original also!
"The credit that I took on it was “Ruined by Rick Rubin,” for that reason. I was thinking, “What are the more surreal, bizarre choices I could make to play up the point that we’re not supposed to be remixing classic songs?” The message of it was, “Don’t do this.”
But i don't want Rubin to rework the classicks but i want a complete new fresh album with new songs.

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Re: Social Debris

Post by patrick » Fri Feb 12, 2021 8:47 am

been listening now several times to these tree songs in a row. Rock'n Roll is sung with a lot of enthusiasm, Our love etc takes a little more time to get used to, but Social Debris is imho a real Alice song (however difficult it is to define that )
(like it more than the two songs that came with Paranormal, which were not bad at all )
Still wonder why Alice brings in other musicians than his current band : is anyone buying a cd because of the fact that the drummer of U2 is on it, or the guys from ZZTOP : after all, when on the road again, it will be the band that has to play those songs ( and doing it very well ) .
you really wouldn't understand..

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Re: Social Debris

Post by pitkin88 » Fri Feb 12, 2021 9:43 am

patrick wrote:
Fri Feb 12, 2021 8:47 am
been listening now several times to these tree songs in a row. Rock'n Roll is sung with a lot of enthusiasm, Our love etc takes a little more time to get used to, but Social Debris is imho a real Alice song (however difficult it is to define that )
(like it more than the two songs that came with Paranormal, which were not bad at all )
Still wonder why Alice brings in other musicians than his current band : is anyone buying a cd because of the fact that the drummer of U2 is on it, or the guys from ZZTOP : after all, when on the road again, it will be the band that has to play those songs ( and doing it very well ) .
Alice barely plays any "new" songs live so no need to worry. U2 drummer was brought in to try something different not sell product and ZZ To p was because Alice obviously wanted to record with him and not well records.

I could care less if the touring band record s with him. The idea that suddenly a great album will appear because of this is unlikely.

I do think Alice works best with a few players and not a cavalcade of guitarist. I also think Ezrin should go as he is over the hill and wields too much influence.

No on Rick Rubin. Just don't see that working.

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Re: Social Debris

Post by rgallie » Fri Feb 12, 2021 2:17 pm

I second Rick Rubin...worked for Black Sabbath with 13.

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Re: Social Debris

Post by cooperrocks » Fri Feb 12, 2021 4:10 pm

I third Rick Rubin, especially if you give him enough control over the direction of the album. I would like to see Alice go back into a heavier direction with a little more shredding than say Brutal Planet and Dragontown. Letting Nita Strauss shred on an Alice album would be great.

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Re: Social Debris

Post by Rhapsody of Fire » Fri Feb 12, 2021 6:09 pm

Rhapsody of Fire wrote:
Sun Feb 07, 2021 3:21 am
Very good song. Congratulations to all the musicians who were involved.
I lied. Well, the guitar solo is good, but I don't really like the song. I was bedazzled by the video, it's the only explanation, that I can think of.

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Re: Social Debris

Post by rgallie » Fri Feb 12, 2021 7:12 pm

cooperrocks wrote:
Fri Feb 12, 2021 4:10 pm
I third Rick Rubin, especially if you give him enough control over the direction of the album. I would like to see Alice go back into a heavier direction with a little more shredding than say Brutal Planet and Dragontown. Letting Nita Strauss shred on an Alice album would be great.
I refrained from typing it but my thoughts on Rick Rubin with Alice is basically Brutal Planet would smash into the style of Breadcrumbs and produce something heavy and gritty (but not industrialised) we would all like to hear

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Re: Social Debris

Post by Saint&Sinner » Sun Feb 14, 2021 8:26 am

While rick rubin has been responsible for some stellar albums (danzig not least among them) he has also been responsible for sonic pain in recent years with the likes of the compression and "production" techniques he uses. I have heard from multiple artists that rubin is less than hands on with artists and the engineer does a large portion of the actual work. I dont think alice would work in this environment personally.
I would like to see Alice go back into a heavier direction with a little more shredding than say Brutal Planet and Dragontown. Letting Nita Strauss shred on an Alice album would be great.
I second that above statement! the thing is, alice is old now and while i am sure he still loves music and enjoys making music, his passion for pushing boundaries or genres i think is long gone. He kind of just wants to sink into a comfortable way of doing things with the sound that reminds him of "old times" . While some of his stuff is fantastic i dont think alice has another classic in him. I'd love for him to prove me wrong (though detroit stories definitely does not seem to be that album!)

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Re: Social Debris

Post by SpacedOutAce » Sun Feb 14, 2021 8:12 pm

It is rather amazing to me that people want Rick Rubin to produce the next Alice record. My first response is, "Why?" The reason for asking is because it is very well known the guy barely even shows up to sessions, just listens to what his assistant and crew have done, gives his opinions, then bounces off to the next artist he is ripping off. If you are charging people the amount I am sure Rubin is charging, and you're only there half the time or less, then you are ripping off the artist.

Secondly, as people have pointed out, yes, at one time, Rubin apparently cared and did a good job (early Slayer, first four Danzig records), but at some point, he just phoned it in, and brickwalled everything. The worst offender was Death Magnetic. The difference between the official product, and what online fans did with Guitar Hero stems is night and day in terms of listening experience (opinions on the quality of music itself being a separate matter).

While I feel that getting someone else next time in lieu of Bob Ezrin (and hopefully getting The Night Shift), I think Rick Rubin is one of the worse ideas. Please, spare us. It'll be unlistenable because it will clip digitally (clipping that way with analog is different altogether, and can sound alright, but digitally, it is terrible) and the money just isn't there. There are much better options out there. Josh Wilbur, Michael "Elvis" Baskette, Colin Richardson, or Brendan O'Brien (or someone along those lines) might be a better alternative. Just a thought.
Saint&Sinner wrote:
Sun Feb 14, 2021 8:26 am
While rick rubin has been responsible for some stellar albums (danzig not least among them) he has also been responsible for sonic pain in recent years with the likes of the compression and "production" techniques he uses. I have heard from multiple artists that rubin is less than hands on with artists and the engineer does a large portion of the actual work. I dont think alice would work in this environment personally.
I would like to see Alice go back into a heavier direction with a little more shredding than say Brutal Planet and Dragontown. Letting Nita Strauss shred on an Alice album would be great.
I second that above statement! the thing is, alice is old now and while i am sure he still loves music and enjoys making music, his passion for pushing boundaries or genres i think is long gone. He kind of just wants to sink into a comfortable way of doing things with the sound that reminds him of "old times" . While some of his stuff is fantastic i dont think alice has another classic in him. I'd love for him to prove me wrong (though detroit stories definitely does not seem to be that album!)
Not particularly fond of Nita. She did two things for WWE live events, and I thought she botched both times. With Lzzy Hale was probably the most obvious, and it came off very poorly. Personally, I preferred her co-guitarist in Iron Maidens, Courtney Cox. Other than Welcome 2 My Nightmare (which I enjoy a lot), I think his reunion with Ezrin has been a bit lackluster (at best). Then again, I'm not a big fan of Ezrin and his idea of "production" anyways; his best with KISS was when he was pretending to be another Canadian producer (Bob Rock). Ezrin doesn't produce your record, you record his album. I'm also not too big on the "vintage modern throwback retro garage revisited" stuff (Eyes of..., Dirty Diamonds, Paranormal), but that's just me.

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Re: Social Debris

Post by pitkin88 » Mon Feb 15, 2021 1:52 am

With respect to Nita, whose playing I don't like, there is a lot that can go wrong on those live events where it is just one song. No time to warm up plus the pressure.

Agree with everything on Rubin. A sonic earache. He worked well with Cash but that is miles from Cooper. My guess is we won't see more than 3 at the most solo albums from A.C. ( not including HV ) and that he is unlikely to change producers. I honestly think his voice is getting bland on record and pretty soon it's time to retire.

Another problem is too many guests and people recording remotely. There is no band feel to things.

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Re: Social Debris

Post by andyrew » Mon Feb 15, 2021 5:35 am

I think Jonathan Wyman would be a great choice. He produced the latest record, Death by Rock and Roll by The Pretty Reckless. Has anyone listened to it?

That album is a solid 8.5/10 IMO. I was just listening to Death by Rock and Roll, Only Love Can Save Me Now and Witches Burn in particular as standout tracks. I don’t typically replay an album multiple times on the daily, but I really like this one. The production is slick, yet still feels organic and the guitar work is really well done with some edge to it.

If Alice had production like this and used his touring band, I think he would have a gem, or close to one. But I’m still hopeful we’ll have a good one with Detroit Stories. Maybe not “great”, but if this is what makes Alice happy and we still get new music from him, I’m more than happy with that especially this late into his career. He doesn’t have to release new material at all, so I appreciate him still doing so. Considering he wanted most of the players on this album to be from Detroit, it makes sense why he went in this direction, for this one at least.

I anticipate he will go back to a more fulsome concept album for his next release. That 7 deadly sins concept sounded interesting when it was first brought up. 7 quality songs that are 7 or more minutes each with 3 brief 30 second interludes would be an interesting route to take. More storytelling but a little more creativity with much more guitar work and drums. Hopefully he will consider using his touring band, with 2-3 songs from the ACG for the next one. If not, I’ve never “hated” an ACG of AC album. I think Pretties for You is my least favourite, but I can still appreciate it for what it is especially since it was the first.

As for Ezrin, I don’t mind him at the helm. I just wish he would push Alice out of his comfort zone a bit more and less on the nostalgia as some have pointed out here. Maybe he wants to keep Alice happy above all else so they can continue working together, or he truly believes this is the next level. If that’s the case, it is a bit disappointing considering I’m pretty sure there is another gear, especially with a voice and a character like Alice. Although he’s getting up there in age, his voice still sounds great.

Looking forward to Detroit Stories and I hope the next one will really show us the more sinister side of Alice again. I would love an Along Came a Spider type of concept, just with improved production, with the touring band. :rock:

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Re: Social Debris

Post by SpacedOutAce » Mon Feb 15, 2021 6:20 pm

pitkin88 wrote:
Mon Feb 15, 2021 1:52 am
With respect to Nita, whose playing I don't like, there is a lot that can go wrong on those live events where it is just one song. No time to warm up plus the pressure.
Once, sure, but both times were just horrid. One time, she plays as if the band, whom I believe is the bulk of Halestorm, were kind enough to let her join, were just in her way of shredding aimlessly. The other time, when she was an unnecessary part of Shinsuke Nakamura's entrance at Wrestlemania, she botches a large portion of it. I remember commenting to my friend, "Wow, I kind of expected her to do a lot better than that..."

Of course, there is a version of this that WWE put out that edits the hell out of the performance, making her sound much better than she did live when Wrestlemania aired on the network. Here is much closer to what you saw if you watched.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNJfXP4NzVE

And then there is this dreadful performance. I'm sorry Halestorm got in your way, Nita.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqETQeuFoBo
pitkin88 wrote:
Mon Feb 15, 2021 1:52 am
Agree with everything on Rubin. A sonic earache. He worked well with Cash but that is miles from Cooper. My guess is we won't see more than 3 at the most solo albums from A.C. ( not including HV ) and that he is unlikely to change producers. I honestly think his voice is getting bland on record and pretty soon it's time to retire.

Another problem is too many guests and people recording remotely. There is no band feel to things.
I've never been too fond of the Alice and Friends idea, regardless of the era, but I put up with it because Alice was putting out awesome music.

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Re: Social Debris

Post by James Livewire » Mon Feb 15, 2021 8:07 pm

[quote=andyrew post_id=307984 time=1613367356 user_id=3723]
"I think Jonathan Wyman would be a great choice. He produced the latest record, Death by Rock and Roll by The Pretty Reckless. Has anyone listened to it?I

That album is a solid 8.5/10 IMO. I was just listening to Death by Rock and Roll, Only Love Can Save Me Now and Witches Burn in particular as standout tracks."

I could not agree more with this.. The Album is their best yet. and when i was listening to it, it gave me a coop feel, and i cant quite put my finger on as to why apart from how solid it is.. it is the best hard rock album ive heard in a while, and you can hear everything clearly, unlike the underwater muddy over processed stuff of late on Coops last few albums..

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Re: Social Debris

Post by Dragontown » Tue Feb 16, 2021 1:45 pm

Hello all, been away for a good while and wanted to drop a nice salute to everybody here.
Interesting times for AC and thought it would be nice to have my say.

I personally DON'T think the current touring band would help AC delivering a great record. To me, is about inspiration what Bob and Alice are looking for, something to get their excitement flowing. Obviously Tommy H. is the exception, he sort of ascended for merits AC recognized him that I think fit with the above (possibly his similar vocal style helps when constructing a song that fits AC range).
Nina is a good addition onstage, expecially for 80s material, and would love to hear her on more stuff from Hey stoopid too...but other than that I strongly doubt she would add anything on a studio album (her solo material is kind of uninspired IMO). AC lives with these guys on the road, I can imagine him preferring fresh air in an artistic environment. He knows much better.

I feel so glad and happy AC is still planning stuff, putting out stuff, putting out singles..."Don't give up" was unexpected, perfect Cooper song delivered in a hard time. That was real Alice.
And "Social Debris" is again 100% Alice. I think he's trying to capture a wibe this time around and maybe focusing less on the lyrical side but hey...this is 100% Alice, can't believe some don't like it: simple, straight to the point, serious but you know it's not.
With Alice, you never know what to expect and tha'ts what makes him unique

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Re: Social Debris

Post by cooperrocks » Wed Feb 17, 2021 12:38 am

I must respectfully disagree regarding Nita Strauss. Many guitarists out there including Steve Vai sing her praises and she is constantly winning awards. She is the best thing to happen to Alice in the last several years because she has brought him some new press and has great stage presence and her shredding style has opened up the songs that can be played. She also gets the second largest cheers behind Alice at many live shows. She is outstanding in my opinion and I would love to hear her play on Alice album.

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Re: Social Debris

Post by Dragontown » Wed Feb 17, 2021 7:55 am

cooperrocks wrote:
Wed Feb 17, 2021 12:38 am
I must respectfully disagree regarding Nita Strauss. Many guitarists out there including Steve Vai sing her praises and she is constantly winning awards. She is the best thing to happen to Alice in the last several years
Hi, please don't get me wrong, I also admire her and think she's great onstage. Very talented, But studio work for the master is another thing

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