Bob Ezrin-Past, Present And Future

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Re: Bob Ezrin-Past, Present And Future

Post by guttertrash » Wed Aug 02, 2017 10:30 am

My apologies, Si.

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Re: Bob Ezrin-Past, Present And Future

Post by tommycooper » Wed Aug 02, 2017 12:24 pm

There have been a number of references in this, and other threads, to budgetary issues/ constraints in the making of Alice's albums. I'm not taking a position here, because I simply don't know- but is it really possible that this album would have been demonstrably "better" if those involved had spent more money in the studio?
I ask the question because I'd be amazed if Alice, Bob and Shep knew that to be a fact and opted to save a bit of cash. I would have imagined that, at this stage in his career, they could have stumped up a few thousand dollars here and there if it was obvious it would make a material difference to the recorded legacy. Or don't they care?!
I'll be a little sceptical of any response along the lines of "they may not have that sort of money".

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Re: Bob Ezrin-Past, Present And Future

Post by revinkevin » Wed Aug 02, 2017 1:24 pm

When the single was first played I cringed. Way to slick and sterile. But now that the whole album is out, I'm much better with the overall release. Matter of fact, it's one of his better ones. That said, I think if the guy who produced EOAC had a shot at this, it would have been even better.

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Re: Bob Ezrin-Past, Present And Future

Post by padre_sliprat » Wed Aug 02, 2017 3:02 pm

For me, Paranormal is in the top ten of Alice's albums. It's a consistent work with solid songs.
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Re: Bob Ezrin-Past, Present And Future

Post by Shoesalesman » Wed Aug 02, 2017 6:14 pm

padre_sliprat wrote:For me, Paranormal is in the top ten of Alice's albums. It's a consistent work with solid songs.
While I don't agree with your first sentence, I definitely agree with your second. :)
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Re: Bob Ezrin-Past, Present And Future

Post by mr.barlow » Thu Aug 03, 2017 2:35 am

tommycooper wrote:There have been a number of references in this, and other threads, to budgetary issues/ constraints in the making of Alice's albums. I'm not taking a position here, because I simply don't know- but is it really possible that this album would have been demonstrably "better" if those involved had spent more money in the studio?
I ask the question because I'd be amazed if Alice, Bob and Shep knew that to be a fact and opted to save a bit of cash. I would have imagined that, at this stage in his career, they could have stumped up a few thousand dollars here and there if it was obvious it would make a material difference to the recorded legacy. Or don't they care?!
I'll be a little sceptical of any response along the lines of "they may not have that sort of money".
They definitely have the money, but I think the issue was were they willing to take any loss. I'm sure they did a cost analysis prior to entering into the project and gave it a budget in which their analytics showed them would turn a profit.

It could have backfired on them as now that the album is well received and will likely surpass their sales estimates, it may now lead them to some second guessing as to whether they should have spent some more money--like on a decent cover! I bet Shep payed the kid who works as a car valet at The Ilikai Hotel $8.00 to design that cover!

But then again, the album is getting rave reviews so it shows that the majority of fans like it just as it is.

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Re: Bob Ezrin-Past, Present And Future

Post by I'm Pain » Thu Aug 03, 2017 10:47 am

I think Bob is a master of sonics. He knows how to make an album sound lush, and full - every detail of it. It's almost like Billion Dollar Babies set the bar for him, as you can hear elements of B$B in Pink Floyd's The Wall, and Kiss Destroyer. I think that in the past, you could tell an Ezrin produced album right away by the actual sound of it.

However, I think modern recording techniques have hurt the actual art of recorded music itself by making bands sound too similar. It's not a slam on Bob himself, as much as it's an observation. The last Cheap Trick album could easily be an Aerosmith album if you erased Robin's vocals, and replaced them with Steven Tylers. I would hate to hear Love it to Death if it were recorded with today's recording standards - even if Ezrin were to produce it.

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Re: Bob Ezrin-Past, Present And Future

Post by Dannorama » Thu Aug 03, 2017 12:44 pm

Saint&Sinner wrote:I am genuinely not getting the hate for Bob Ezrin, I cant help thinking its just trolling now.
He is one of the preeminent producers of our time. As detailed in a previous post, the producer largely goes where the artist wants to go.
As has been mentioned with the ACG he took the seeds of the ideas and moulded them into something listenable and marketable.
Clarity is not a bad thing on an album. It doesn't make it any less brutal or melodic etc. it just allows the music to breathe. The content sets the tone.
Bob ezrin always has the punch when it counts (this album easily demonstrates that) but can dial it back when needed. It never sounds tame or dour.
I knew when I saw the title of this thread that a large fraction of the posts would be unflattering. Never underestimate the STUK forum dweller for expecting a global entity to sound and act only within their own personal boundaries.
This album is a treasure.
Bob Ezrin is one of the gift givers.
Good manners dictate that if you don't like the gift, smile and nod, then put it aside. That is, unless you are protecting your anonymity by hiding behind a keyboard. In that case, you are entitled to rant and rave about how bad the gift is, and the givers should retire to prevent your further distress.
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Re: Bob Ezrin-Past, Present And Future

Post by RemarkablyInsincere » Thu Aug 03, 2017 4:52 pm

Dannorama wrote:
pitkin88 wrote:Was there a reason why Kiss never worked again with Bob?
Yes. Ezrin turned them down. He has done 4 Kiss albums, by the way.
Your facts are wrong.

KISS moved on from Ezrin because they felt they'd wandered too far from their rock and roll sound on the album. In fact, before "Beth" was an unexpected hit as a b-side, the band was really panicking feeling like they'd made a huge mistake working with Bob as they were not happy with the results. "Detroit Rock City" had failed to do much on the charts and nobody had any reason to expect the ballad would save the album.

Even so, they had no intention of working with Bob on the follow-up ("Rock and Roll Over") and he was not approached as they wanted to get back to their straight ahead rock and roll sound.

As far as the album, I don't really like the sound of it compared to their other albums. Mixing the pianos in with the guitars just makes for a very non-rock-and-roll sound in my opinion. Where the album excels is in the songwriting and arrangements. I really think most of those songs sound much better live as straight guitar rock songs than they do on the album itself and that's why so many of them have become concert staples over the years.
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Re: Bob Ezrin-Past, Present And Future

Post by Daggers & Contracts » Thu Aug 03, 2017 5:03 pm

Dannorama wrote:
Saint&Sinner wrote:I am genuinely not getting the hate for Bob Ezrin, I cant help thinking its just trolling now.
He is one of the preeminent producers of our time. As detailed in a previous post, the producer largely goes where the artist wants to go.
As has been mentioned with the ACG he took the seeds of the ideas and moulded them into something listenable and marketable.
Clarity is not a bad thing on an album. It doesn't make it any less brutal or melodic etc. it just allows the music to breathe. The content sets the tone.
Bob ezrin always has the punch when it counts (this album easily demonstrates that) but can dial it back when needed. It never sounds tame or dour.
I knew when I saw the title of this thread that a large fraction of the posts would be unflattering. Never underestimate the STUK forum dweller for expecting a global entity to sound and act only within their own personal boundaries.
This album is a treasure.
Bob Ezrin is one of the gift givers.
Good manners dictate that if you don't like the gift, smile and nod, then put it aside. That is, unless you are protecting your anonymity by hiding behind a keyboard. In that case, you are entitled to rant and rave about how bad the gift is, and the givers should retire to prevent your further distress.
They can put it right next to the Hollywood Vampires release that many said they wouldn't even bother to purchase.
Great post! :clap:
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Re: Bob Ezrin-Past, Present And Future

Post by guttertrash » Thu Aug 03, 2017 5:04 pm

I'm Pain wrote:I think Bob is a master of sonics. He knows how to make an album sound lush, and full - every detail of it. It's almost like Billion Dollar Babies set the bar for him, as you can hear elements of B$B in Pink Floyd's The Wall, and Kiss Destroyer. I think that in the past, you could tell an Ezrin produced album right away by the actual sound of it.

However, I think modern recording techniques have hurt the actual art of recorded music itself by making bands sound too similar. It's not a slam on Bob himself, as much as it's an observation. The last Cheap Trick album could easily be an Aerosmith album if you erased Robin's vocals, and replaced them with Steven Tylers. I would hate to hear Love it to Death if it were recorded with today's recording standards - even if Ezrin were to produce it.
The digital age has definitely damaged the way music sounds, but with that being said, recording analog is still an option, and you can run that through protools for overdubs which actually helps keep a warm sound as long as you don't screw up the overdubs and the mix. Digital compression is really the nuisance with albums today. Ezrin's albums all have a ton of compression. The guitars are extremely thin and lose their shape at times or get lost in the mix other times, and it is more or less just a buzz filling the void due to being over compressed. The bass and drums are loud and almost clipping, and with headphones on, I believe the kick does clips sometimes. This album isn't even on the same dB levels compared with some albums out today, but it creates massive ear fatigue nonetheless. This is due to digital compression, and it is in Bob's production and not just the mastering.

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Re: Bob Ezrin-Past, Present And Future

Post by guttertrash » Thu Aug 03, 2017 5:24 pm

Dannorama wrote:
Saint&Sinner wrote:I am genuinely not getting the hate for Bob Ezrin, I cant help thinking its just trolling now.
He is one of the preeminent producers of our time. As detailed in a previous post, the producer largely goes where the artist wants to go.
As has been mentioned with the ACG he took the seeds of the ideas and moulded them into something listenable and marketable.
Clarity is not a bad thing on an album. It doesn't make it any less brutal or melodic etc. it just allows the music to breathe. The content sets the tone.
Bob ezrin always has the punch when it counts (this album easily demonstrates that) but can dial it back when needed. It never sounds tame or dour.
I knew when I saw the title of this thread that a large fraction of the posts would be unflattering. Never underestimate the STUK forum dweller for expecting a global entity to sound and act only within their own personal boundaries.
This album is a treasure.
Bob Ezrin is one of the gift givers.
Good manners dictate that if you don't like the gift, smile and nod, then put it aside. That is, unless you are protecting your anonymity by hiding behind a keyboard. In that case, you are entitled to rant and rave about how bad the gift is, and the givers should retire to prevent your further distress.
I have been quite outspoken on my ideas. I have told people they should give the new album a listen as well as complained about what I feel is lackluster production. I want an album that is going to sound the way I hear the music live. Sure, you can add things here and there, but I guarantee that the three guitar line-up will sound clearer and less compressed than this album does, and you can produce an album that sounds the same.

As far as spending mone, I bet for the price they paid to bring in these outside musicians. He could have used his band and put more money into the production and came out with something as good or better. I'll still believe it could have all been done better and probably even cheaper by somebody else.

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Re: Bob Ezrin-Past, Present And Future

Post by cooperrocks » Thu Aug 03, 2017 6:07 pm

It is interesting that production has come up again. That is the issue I had with Along Came a Spider. The theme was good, some of the promotion ideas were good, etc. Then when I listen to the album, you could hear all the potential of that album. However, the production of that album ruined Along Came a Spider in my opinion. The songs just sounded flat and tended to sound the same. It was a very well-written album that could have been amazing in my opinion but the production was the issue. While I don't compare Paranormal to Along Came a Spider (Along Came a Spider is the only solo Alice album I don't care for at all. Lace and Whiskey for example had its moments), that does seem to be an issue with a few fans.

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Re: Bob Ezrin-Past, Present And Future

Post by Dannorama » Thu Aug 03, 2017 6:17 pm

RemarkablyInsincere wrote:
Dannorama wrote:
pitkin88 wrote:Was there a reason why Kiss never worked again with Bob?
Yes. Ezrin turned them down. He has done 4 Kiss albums, by the way.
Your facts are wrong.

KISS moved on from Ezrin because they felt they'd wandered too far from their rock and roll sound on the album. In fact, before "Beth" was an unexpected hit as a b-side, the band was really panicking feeling like they'd made a huge mistake working with Bob as they were not happy with the results. "Detroit Rock City" had failed to do much on the charts and nobody had any reason to expect the ballad would save the album.

Even so, they had no intention of working with Bob on the follow-up ("Rock and Roll Over") and he was not approached as they wanted to get back to their straight ahead rock and roll sound.
Not saying you're wrong, but I'm not wrong either. In 1998, it was put out there that Bob refused to work with KISS based on the weak material for Psycho Circus... Here's how he tells it these days:

http://kissmonster.com/multimedia/ezrin ... Psycho.mp3

PS: Here's the list:
Destroyer (1976)
Elder (1981)
Revenge (1992)
Destroyer Resurrected (2012)
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Re: Bob Ezrin-Past, Present And Future

Post by RemarkablyInsincere » Thu Aug 03, 2017 6:47 pm

Dannorama wrote:Not saying you're wrong, but I'm not wrong either. In 1998, it was put out there that Bob refused to work with KISS based on the weak material for Psycho Circus... Here's how he tells it these days:
I don't know what you're listening to, but in the MP3 link you provided, Bob Ezrin clearly says in he wanted to produce ("I so badly wanted to do it") PSYCHO CIRCUS but could not because he had a company he had commitments to that was taking up too much of his time.

He says nothing about refusing to work with them or that the material was weak and has never said such a thing. This is the same way it was detailed in 1998 when the various parties were asked why Bob didn't produce it.
Dannorama wrote:
PS: Here's the list:
Destroyer (1976)
Elder (1981)
Revenge (1992)
Destroyer Resurrected (2012)


Wrong again. "Destroyer Resurrected" is simply a project to remix "Destroyer". It's hardly the same as recording another album with the band.
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Re: Bob Ezrin-Past, Present And Future

Post by padre_sliprat » Thu Aug 03, 2017 7:43 pm

Shoesalesman wrote:
padre_sliprat wrote:For me, Paranormal is in the top ten of Alice's albums. It's a consistent work with solid songs.
While I don't agree with your first sentence, I definitely agree with your second. :)
This is the honeymoon phase. I'm sure that down the road, when the dust clears and everything shakes out, that Paranormal will reside in the top 15 for me. There's only 27 studio albums over 48 years, so that's somewhere around the halfway point. :)
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Re: Bob Ezrin-Past, Present And Future

Post by guttertrash » Thu Aug 03, 2017 8:21 pm

cooperrocks wrote:It is interesting that production has come up again. That is the issue I had with Along Came a Spider. The theme was good, some of the promotion ideas were good, etc. Then when I listen to the album, you could hear all the potential of that album. However, the production of that album ruined Along Came a Spider in my opinion. The songs just sounded flat and tended to sound the same. It was a very well-written album that could have been amazing in my opinion but the production was the issue. While I don't compare Paranormal to Along Came a Spider (Along Came a Spider is the only solo Alice album I don't care for at all. Lace and Whiskey for example had its moments), that does seem to be an issue with a few fans.
I'm afraid that what happened was that Alice or Shep heard the comments about ACAS, and it's amateruish, underproduction and said "well,
that never has to happen again." Ezrin's recent work to me is all the way on the other end of the continuum. They are completely different, but both a bit unsatisfying, and for me, underproduction can be more satisfying than overproduction when it doesn't hit the spot which says how bad it is for me to dislike it

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Re: Bob Ezrin-Past, Present And Future

Post by Dannorama » Fri Aug 04, 2017 2:28 am

RemarkablyInsincere wrote:
Dannorama wrote:Not saying you're wrong, but I'm not wrong either. In 1998, it was put out there that Bob refused to work with KISS based on the weak material for Psycho Circus... Here's how he tells it these days:
I don't know what you're listening to, but in the MP3 link you provided, Bob Ezrin clearly says in he wanted to produce ("I so badly wanted to do it") PSYCHO CIRCUS but could not because he had a company he had commitments to that was taking up too much of his time.

He says nothing about refusing to work with them or that the material was weak and has never said such a thing. This is the same way it was detailed in 1998 when the various parties were asked why Bob didn't produce it.
Dannorama wrote:
PS: Here's the list:
Destroyer (1976)
Elder (1981)
Revenge (1992)
Destroyer Resurrected (2012)


Wrong again. "Destroyer Resurrected" is simply a project to remix "Destroyer". It's hardly the same as recording another album with the band.

Please read it again...

In 1998, it was put out there that Bob refused to work with KISS based on the weak material for Psycho Circus...
Here's how he tells it these days...
That's revisionism. It's a popular way to unsay what has been said previously. For what it's worth, I read the original culmination in a magazine, which is why it has stuck with me for all of these years. Maybe THEY were wrong, but not me. ...NOT ME, DAMMIT!

As far as Resurrected goes, I agree with you. However, Wikipdeia (my source) lists it as a full production. That made me think about it, and I can see their point. He tweaked and remixed every instrument and track, and then he put it all together again. There is only one difference that is apparent, and that is the capturing of the original sound in a studio - which was impossible at that point. He used the old raw tape, and he produced a wholly new album.

I appreciate the dialogue with you, RI. Remember, you can't believe everything that you read on the internet - or in a 1998 magazine.
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Re: Bob Ezrin-Past, Present And Future

Post by guttertrash » Fri Aug 04, 2017 2:53 am

I would not consider it a whole new album. It is still the same tracks as the original. He just remixed it the same way that The Stones albums have been remixed. The money-men that Kiss are gave them the idea to rename it, but The Stones and some other bands have remixed their albums and ended up with a completely new album. ZZ Top's 70s albums were updated with gated reverb on the drums and instruments and vocals added or taken out, but they discontinued the originals. Blizzard of Ozz and Diary of a Madman had the re-recorded bass and drums in the 90s, but it was not considered a "new" album.

As far as psycho circus, I have no idea. The link you posted just went to audio which stated that he was too busy, so yea, it could have easily been revisionism.

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Re: Bob Ezrin-Past, Present And Future

Post by Dannorama » Fri Aug 04, 2017 7:14 am

guttertrash wrote:I would not consider it a whole new album. It is still the same tracks as the original. He just remixed it the same way that The Stones albums have been remixed. The money-men that Kiss are gave them the idea to rename it, but The Stones and some other bands have remixed their albums and ended up with a completely new album. ZZ Top's 70s albums were updated with gated reverb on the drums and instruments and vocals added or taken out, but they discontinued the originals. Blizzard of Ozz and Diary of a Madman had the re-recorded bass and drums in the 90s, but it was not considered a "new" album.

As far as psycho circus, I have no idea. The link you posted just went to audio which stated that he was too busy, so yea, it could have easily been revisionism.
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