Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 165 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 7:47 pm 
Offline
Billion Dollar Baby
Billion Dollar Baby

Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2008 5:11 am
Posts: 367
For what it is worth, there is no denying that Ezrin's work on LITD, Killer, School's Out, BDB, and WTMN is extraordinary even if it did get a bit slick. Past glories do not mean that his cannon of work is infallible nor makes him exempt from criticism in my opinion. This standard is not practiced in most businesses. A great employee or business can see the quality of its production slip, and it will either be criticized or people will find a better product in it's place. It doesn't mean the quality was never good.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 11:38 pm 
Offline
Billion Dollar Baby
Billion Dollar Baby
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2011 7:40 pm
Posts: 256
Location: Bastrop, Texas
Constructive feedback helps a company find it's bearings again, should it begin to derail.










_________________
Roll, Tide, roll!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 12:36 am 
Offline
Billion Dollar Baby
Billion Dollar Baby

Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2008 5:11 am
Posts: 367
Which, more often than not, results in changes being made in personnel positions. My opinion is that the personnel isn't right. Whether anybody else thinks that or not does not change my view. In no way has anything I said tarnished the achievements of Ezrin's past. He made great albums, and he was important to the ACG as well as helping Alice's solo career start with a bang. I think he did great with all of that material. The Wall worked, because his production fits the tone of the theme. To me, KISS and his style just don't work. It dawns on me that I think this is why I don't care for the last two albums. The ACG and WTMN were rock, but they had epic and dramatic flourishes that the production helped push. KISS is not that kind of band. They are a pure straight-forward rock band, and they suffered from the heavy-handedness which made their albums come off as trying to be something more than what was there. W2MN doesn't have a Black Widow or Devil's Food or The Awakening or Steven, etc. While the album was technically thematic, the songs were pretty much straightforward except when being silly besides The Nightmare Returns which is really the only thing outside of the Underture and title that marries the albums to WTMN, and Paranormal is of course straight-forward. I just do not feel like Ezrin's production works for rock n' roll especially with the compression, because I feel like it should be stripped down. I think a stripped down approach would make the muddiness more tolerable also.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 12:49 am 
Offline
Killer
Killer

Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2012 8:32 pm
Posts: 144
Swinger wrote:
Maaki wrote:
.. I don't think KISS would have gone far without BE and Destroyer. But the records he produced are dance dance danced all over their faces with LG, RRO both produced by Eddie Kramer as well as the two you mentioned that are produced by Paul and Gene themselves. Lick it up, in all it's banality and with the insufferable but competent Vinnie Vincent is their best record. In my opinion.

Creatures and Lick It Up were produced by Michael James Jackson (Gene and Paul do get producer credit as well, but they weren't lone producers). Animalize and Asylum on the other hand were produced by Paul and Gene.

Maaki wrote:
Destroyer which is the remarkable Ezrin produced album by KISS had pretty much everyone but KISS playing on it. And when they did play they played wrong instruments such as Frehley on bass. Which is my main beef with Ezrin and it has been so for decades. He just does not let the people play on their own records.

I've heard people claim that about Destroyer before but is it really true? The only "replacements" that has been confirmed as far as I know is Dick Wagner playing on "Sweet Pain", "Beth" and maybe "Flaming Youth" and no one from the band except Peter being present at all on Beth.
For that matter Paul played some bass on Love Gun and Gene played rythm guitar on his songs on several albums which Bob Ezrin didn't produce, so if they switched instruments maybe Ezrin's not to blame.


Funny. I was sure that they produced Creatures and Lick it up themselves and had help on Animalize. Now that you mention it, I know you are right. I have had my wires crossed for decades on that. I stand corrected.

As for switching instruments, I am not sure that's the whole story. It is obvious that KISS lacked chops on pretty much everything but Paul's vocals in studio. But it does not start or end with KISS - it was just an example. I know it was done those days a lot, and a musician would just get a one time payment and nobody talked about it ever since. I don't think it is an Ezrin thing in the 70s. But - maybe I am just butthurt about Paranormal - which anyone could be to blame really - but I just instinctively point at Ezrin due to knowing him done that before.

I have been avoiding of seeing lists of who plays what on Paranormal, because there are people there that I generally adore - just didn't want them to play for Coop at this point - and once I see it, it will forever alter my perception of the record. (I can't give myself much credit on being impartial in such things, unfortunately.)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 1:00 am 
Offline
Dada God
Dada God

Joined: Sat Dec 09, 2006 4:25 am
Posts: 3425
Location: calif
So even if the record is good it can be ruined for you If you know MB DD and NS are playing on it?










_________________
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzbeFMpdVIA


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 1:03 am 
Offline
Killer
Killer

Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2012 8:32 pm
Posts: 144
Ted Sallis wrote:
Maaki wrote:
...


I hardly think that Destroyer is 'dance dance danced all over (it's) face with LG and RRO'. Same with Lick It Up and Animalize, though as mentioned by another poster, Paul and Gene didn't really produce those latter 2 albums. Also, Destroyer 'so very bad'? Not a chance.
And as also stated by another poster, there were some parts on that album that were recorded by non-KISS musicians, but to state that it had pretty much everyone but KISS playing on it is a gross exaggeration. Same as the statement re. BE not letting 'the people play on their own records'.

Ted


Yeah, I was completely mistaken on Paul and Gene producing Creatures and Lick it up that I mentioned, but they did produce Animalize - which I though they had a producer for. I don't care for Animalize myself, though.

Anyway. Destroyer had some of their mainstays but I didn't really care for any of them apart from Detroit rock city. God of thunder on the record is even embarrassing with the child choir and I don't even know what to say about Great expectations.

As always, I do realize these are my very subjective opinions only. And everyone's opinion is at least equal to mine and quite a few people on this board and elsewhere have utterly superior exoertize on all things music compared to myself.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 1:08 am 
Offline
Killer
Killer

Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2012 8:32 pm
Posts: 144
pitkin88 wrote:
So even if the record is good it can be ruined for you If you know MB DD and NS are playing on it?

No, not at all. Why would you say that? I actally think that DD and NS are clear strengths on Paranormal on the stuff I know they played.

It's Steve Hunter actually, whom like I have said before, I completely adore. If it happens to be him on guitar on some of the parts I think should have been done better, I know I will talk myself into another opinion. Mind you I pretty much only know what has been said on this board about who played what, and I haven't read all the threads. I just know bits and pieces. And I don't know at all what SH did play, because like I said, I have been avoiding that info so far.

In an ideal and selfish world of mine the ACG and touring band would have been the pool to pick musicians from - and I have said so before quite a few times. If it was absolutely paramount to get a different player, although there is plenty of chops and styles there to pick from, in the same ideal and selfish world of mine, they would only have brought in the best of the best to do that part.

EDIT: And for clarification - I don't think a song will be ruined for me if SH did play on it - on the contrary, I know within a weeks time I will think it is great! We don't get a new record often so I just wanted to hear Paranormal for what it was. And again even with all my feelings being what they are, I love the record as it is. It is just that in that perfect selfish world, I think it could have been even a bit better with more oomph in playing. Songs are great! Even Rats is growing on me.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 1:54 am 
Offline
Killer
Killer

Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2009 2:43 pm
Posts: 247
Maaki wrote:
Yeah, I was completely mistaken on Paul and Gene producing Creatures and Lick it up that I mentioned, but they did produce Animalize - which I though they had a producer for. I don't care for Animalize myself, though.


I made an error too when I mentioned Animalize as being 1 of the albums Paul and Gene didn't produce; they DID produce that album.

Ted


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 5:54 pm 
Offline
Billion Dollar Baby
Billion Dollar Baby

Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2006 6:33 am
Posts: 306
Location: Champaign, Illinois
When I was using the term filler, I wasn't assigning such a pejorative meaning as some assume. Merely, my observation that many of the complaints about Ezrin today I see clear examples of in the past. By filler, I mean songs that are weaker and included to get a full lp of material, but if the band spent more time woodsheding they might have came up with some solid tunes. As I said, I really like all of the songs, the ACG fillers are in a whole different category than the solo fillers. I like all of the big four albums I mentioned, and MoL, better than any solo material, although I quite like the solo stuff as well. I think this has to do with Ezrin's greater reliance on studio cats. When the band recorded Gutter cats it sounds like a rock band doing Broadway. Same with them doing Crazy Little Child, still a rock band playing dixieland. Hit WtMN, Some Folks just sounds like a typical show tune. I think Dunaway and Smith are the most noticeable absences. I mean Ezrin brings in killer bassists (Babbitt, Levin, John, et al), all of whom far surpass Dennis in playing ability, but nothing noticeable results in terms of song development from the bass. Some Folks, just cause I mentioned it earlier, has some of the most wicked bass fills, but so tastefully and unobtrusively done they aren't even noticed by many and the song could be reproduced without them.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 6:21 pm 
Offline
Dada God
Dada God
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2005 6:47 pm
Posts: 2678
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Maaki wrote:
Thanks for the info. I find it quite surprising to be honest, as Stanley always seemed like a reasonable man in the mad house of Ace Frehleys and Vinnie Vincents.


I think that's the persona Paul has presented. Apparently he's quite the diva and if you've followed him on Twitter or FB, he can be quite catty at times.










_________________
"Golly gee it's wrong to be so guilty..."


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 6:23 pm 
Offline
Dada God
Dada God
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2005 6:47 pm
Posts: 2678
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
HORRORHOLIC wrote:
I'm not too big on the way Alice's vocals are recorded either. Doesn't sound much like Alice to me. He sounds much better live actually.


I read another general music forum and the consensus there seems to be that there's a lot of autotune being applied to Alice's vox in the studio and that's why they "sound different".










_________________
"Golly gee it's wrong to be so guilty..."


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 7:12 pm 
Offline
Dada God
Dada God

Joined: Sat Dec 09, 2006 4:25 am
Posts: 3425
Location: calif
RemarkablyInsincere wrote:
Maaki wrote:
Thanks for the info. I find it quite surprising to be honest, as Stanley always seemed like a reasonable man in the mad house of Ace Frehleys and Vinnie Vincents.


I think that's the persona Paul has presented. Apparently he's quite the diva and if you've followed him on Twitter or FB, he can be quite catty at times.




WRONG!! Peter Criss was the Cat.










_________________
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzbeFMpdVIA


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 7:15 pm 
Offline
Dada God
Dada God

Joined: Sat Dec 09, 2006 4:25 am
Posts: 3425
Location: calif
RemarkablyInsincere wrote:
HORRORHOLIC wrote:
I'm not too big on the way Alice's vocals are recorded either. Doesn't sound much like Alice to me. He sounds much better live actually.


I read another general music forum and the consensus there seems to be that there's a lot of autotune being applied to Alice's vox in the studio and that's why they "sound different".



Sad. Wasn't it Alice that said he could sing out of tune in any key?










_________________
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzbeFMpdVIA


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 7:43 pm 
Offline
Killer
Killer

Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 1:59 pm
Posts: 172
I wouldn't say alices's voice is "shot" but he is older and cannot hit the notes he once could. Live he can sound very rough at times due to this and the extensive tour schedule. Live he has tommy, tommy tommy to fill in the parts he cant reach-
For the studio work i wouldn't think he is auto tuning it personally (unless its an effect like i am made of you) I think he probably has to take his time recording and do less takes than he maybe did in the past - he also has less variety in the key he can sing in - again due to age which is why i presume he does more "character" voices (for lack of a better term)

Its a tricky one, not sure where other people sit on this one.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 8:50 pm 
Offline
Humanary Stew
Humanary Stew

Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2009 8:54 pm
Posts: 80
Berlin by Lou Reed is simply genius and one of Ezrin's fave albums involving his good self .


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:48 pm 
Offline
Dada God
Dada God

Joined: Sat Dec 09, 2006 4:25 am
Posts: 3425
Location: calif
andyrushworth wrote:
Berlin by Lou Reed is simply genius and one of Ezrin's fave albums involving his good self .



I hadn't played it in years but when I did I found it impossible to listen to. Kiss of death follow up to Transformer.










_________________
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzbeFMpdVIA


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 11:33 pm 
Offline
Billion Dollar Baby
Billion Dollar Baby

Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2008 5:11 am
Posts: 367
I don't know if "autotune" is the correct terminology for the effects. Pitch correction can easily be used to change out of tune singing without there being an effect used. To me it sounds like vocal effects for smoothing over the raspiness of his vocals are being used more than effects to correct his pitch, and this is why I said it ruined Fireball and You And All Your Friends for me. He is older so changes should be expected, and his rasp adds character in my opinion especially for the Alice character. This is one of my major complaints when I refer to "modern" rock effects and production on the last two albums. There is no need to "clean up" the rasp...If a song doesn't work for some reason, find a way to rewrite the melody to make it work or work on a song that fits...stop trying to make Alice something that Alice is not.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 11:46 pm 
Offline
Dada God
Dada God

Joined: Sat Dec 09, 2006 4:25 am
Posts: 3425
Location: calif
I agree that Alice's voice should be left alone. The effect on Fireball works very well though and is used not to cover up any short givings but to give the song a sci fi feel.










_________________
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzbeFMpdVIA


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 12:06 am 
Offline
Billion Dollar Baby
Billion Dollar Baby

Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2010 12:44 am
Posts: 474
pitkin88 wrote:
The effect on Fireball works very well though and is used not to cover up any short givings but to give the song a sci fi feel.


I agree, it's perfect.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 4:13 am 
Offline
Dada God
Dada God

Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2014 1:08 pm
Posts: 900
pitkin88 wrote:
RemarkablyInsincere wrote:
HORRORHOLIC wrote:
I'm not too big on the way Alice's vocals are recorded either. Doesn't sound much like Alice to me. He sounds much better live actually.


I read another general music forum and the consensus there seems to be that there's a lot of autotune being applied to Alice's vox in the studio and that's why they "sound different".



Sad. Wasn't it Alice that said he could sing out of tune in any key?


I wish I came up with that line! Great!


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 165 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Yahoo [Bot] and 16 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group



SickthingsUK is not associated with Alice Cooper, Alive Enterprises, Universal Records or any official entity.
This is an unofficial fan site.
I am NOT Alice Cooper, Toby Mamis OR Shep Gordon. Honest!
The SickthingsUK News Page and Site are copyright © 1997-2016; all rights reserved. Any duplication or reproduction of items on this page without permission is prohibited unless you provide a link please. Credits and acknowledgements are noted where known. No copyright infringement is intended.
I accept all news stories related to Alice Cooper; click here to contact me.
SickthingsUK is a participant in the Amazon Europe S.à r.l. Associates Programme, an affiliate advertising programme designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.co.uk