Bob Ezrin-Past, Present And Future

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Re: Bob Ezrin-Past, Present And Future

Post by RemarkablyInsincere » Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:59 pm

Dannorama wrote:it was put out there that Bob refused to work with KISS [/b]based on the weak material for Psycho Circus...
Here's how he tells it these days... [/i] That's revisionism. It's a popular way to unsay what has been said previously. For what it's worth, I read the original culmination in a magazine, which is why it has stuck with me for all of these years. Maybe THEY were wrong, but not me. ...NOT ME, DAMMIT!
It's not "revisionism" because this is the same reason that was given in 1998 for Bob being unable to produce the album. The fact that you're going to cling to this reasoning because you "think" you read it somewhere almost 20 years ago, well then the onus is on you to come up with the proof. Just because you say so, doesn't make it true. Corroborating evidence is required. And to say Bob Ezrin turned down a project from KISS because the songwriting wasn't good is a somewhat silly and unbelievable premise anyhow.
Dannorama wrote:
As far as Resurrected goes, I agree with you. However, Wikipdeia (my source) lists it as a full production. That made me think about it, and I can see their point. He tweaked and remixed every instrument and track, and then he put it all together again. There is only one difference that is apparent, and that is the capturing of the original sound in a studio - which was impossible at that point. He used the old raw tape, and he produced a wholly new album.
Wikipedia is not a source, I can go in and change that in 5 minutes to say the opposite. Regardless, by every measure, working on a remix does not count the same as recording a totally new album of new material which was the context of what we were discussing. Yes, he worked with them in some capacity, but it doesn't count the same.

In related news, Bob Ezrin detailed in a pretty recent interview that he's no longer on speaking terms with Paul Stanley. He stated he's sad about it, but that Paul harbors resentment towards Bob over some comments he made about the "Music From The Elder" album that were supposed to be off the record and Paul took offense to them.
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Re: Bob Ezrin-Past, Present And Future

Post by ThePainAddict » Fri Aug 04, 2017 3:59 pm

I have to say that I agree with most of the comments about Ezrin.
He is a genius and deserves a lot of credit for the success of the original band.
However, his talent can be counter-productive (via over-production and polishing up weaker songs) as many have complained on the last few Alice efforts.
I what I find funny is that this is seen as a new development.
I will risk being skewered by going after what is sacrosanct (the original ACG lps).
I believe one reason that we don't have leftover tracks from that period is that Ezrin didn't believe that the band needed to bring him 12-15 songs and that he would narrow down the best for inclusion on the record.
You give him 8-9 and he will make them all work.
LIT-D- Hallowed, not really a completes song, sounds awesome, but a short ditty. Sun Arise, a needless cover to getting a respectable running time. The production makes it work, but another original should have been done.
Black Juju begins the overproduction, trying to get all the nuances of a stage performance on record. Takes way too long to slow down and the wake up isn't immediate, so not as effective.
Killer-Y,Y,Y filler material (mock Beatles?),weaker song.
Killer, the ending again tries to create the stage effect, but seems to go on a long time, again helping to get decent running time.
SO-Alma Mater, again filler material.
Grand Finale, an overworked pastiche of leftover jams. Would have been better served to create an actual song. Again, this seems like it was created to get decent running time.
DDB-ST, really not much to this song at all. MA, filler material a reworking a Beautiful Flyaway would have been better.
US & ILtD, both again try to create that stage sense with extended sequence for the theatrics. However, both utilize similar faux James Bond sound. These the vamp out of MA and the long outro of GL all seem designed to get a good running time.

While I listed the above as criticism, I actually love all the songs mentioned, just pointing out what I see as a regular trend with Ezrin. Sometimes just polishing up a weak song can do wonders.
Nowadays he does produce extra songs, but I am not convinced this is to get the best for the album, but more with an eye toward marketing additional packaging.

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Re: Bob Ezrin-Past, Present And Future

Post by pitkin88 » Fri Aug 04, 2017 5:17 pm

The reason the band had little leftover stuff was the schedule they were on. They barely had a break. The constant touring and 5 albums in around 3 years was little short of amazing. Calling Yeah Yeah Yeah and Alma Mater filler is just ridiculous.

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Re: Bob Ezrin-Past, Present And Future

Post by Maaki » Fri Aug 04, 2017 5:18 pm

RemarkablyInsincere wrote:In related news, Bob Ezrin detailed in a pretty recent interview that he's no longer on speaking terms with Paul Stanley. He stated he's sad about it, but that Paul harbors resentment towards Bob over some comments he made about the "Music From The Elder" album that were supposed to be off the record and Paul took offense to them.
Thanks for the info. I find it quite surprising to be honest, as Stanley always seemed like a reasonable man in the mad house of Ace Frehleys and Vinnie Vincents.

Very interesting. Thank you!

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Re: Bob Ezrin-Past, Present And Future

Post by Ted Sallis » Fri Aug 04, 2017 6:01 pm

ThePainAddict wrote:LITD - Hallowed, not really a completes song, sounds awesome, but a short ditty. Sun Arise, a needless cover to getting a respectable running time. The production makes it work, but another original should have been done.
Black Juju begins the overproduction, trying to get all the nuances of a stage performance on record. Takes way too long to slow down and the wake up isn't immediate, so not as effective.
Killer - Y,Y,Y filler material (mock Beatles?), weaker song.
Killer, the ending again tries to create the stage effect, but seems to go on a long time, again helping to get decent running time.
SO - Alma Mater, again filler material.
Grand Finale, an overworked pastiche of leftover jams. Would have been better served to create an actual song. Again, this seems like it was created to get decent running time.
BDB - ST, really not much to this song at all. MA, filler material a reworking a Beautiful Flyaway would have been better.
US & ILtD, both again try to create that stage sense with extended sequence for the theatrics. However, both utilize similar faux James Bond sound. These the vamp out of MA and the long outro of GL all seem designed to get a good running time.
My thoughts:

LITD - Hallowed: I'm not sure why you consider this song to be incomplete, apart from it's shortness. It's quite a gritty track, similar to Long Way To Go in that regard, and the guitar is often punctuated by organ. I've always quite liked it.

Killer - Y,Y,Y: Okay, if I HAD to pick a filler track on the album, it would either be this one or YDMN. But I think it's a great song.
Killer: I think the length of the ending helps set the right mood for the song.

SO - Alma Mater: Again, if I HAD to pick a filler track on the album, it would be this one. But I still quite like it, it's quite tuneful throughout.
Grande Finale: Re. would have been better served to create an actual song - The SO album is considered to be what I term an 'alternate soundtrack' to the movie West Side Story. Grande Finale therefore is what would have played over the end credits.

BDB - ST and MA: Once again, if I HAD to pick filler tracks on the album, it would be these 2. In this case, I don't have much positive to say about them except that the music of ST definitely fits the song title. Re. a reworking of Beautiful Flyaway, would you have wanted MB to sing lead on the remake like he did on the original? Just curious.
US and ILTD: I agree that both try to create that stage sense, etc. I do think the long outro of GL is fitting.

I'm curious to know which MOL songs you regard as filler but as BE didn't produce the album, I guess that should be a discussion for another thread.

Ted

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Re: Bob Ezrin-Past, Present And Future

Post by guttertrash » Fri Aug 04, 2017 7:13 pm

I have always wondered why Sun Arise was covered on LITD considering that Fields Of Regret was re-arranged and demoed for the album. I do think in the context of the album that it does work though. With the darkness of the majority of side two as well as the album in general,
I think Sun Arise brings a positive element to what seems like and album with mostly dark themes.

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Re: Bob Ezrin-Past, Present And Future

Post by pitkin88 » Fri Aug 04, 2017 9:23 pm

guttertrash wrote:I have always wondered why Sun Arise was covered on LITD considering that Fields Of Regret was re-arranged and demoed for the album. I do think in the context of the album that it does work though. With the darkness of the majority of side two as well as the album in general,
I think Sun Arise brings a positive element to what seems like and album with mostly dark themes.


Sun Arise is a much better song than Fields Of Regret. Even Rolfs version is better. Also, why would they re-do a song from their last album? It makes no sense.

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Re: Bob Ezrin-Past, Present And Future

Post by Si » Fri Aug 04, 2017 9:26 pm

pitkin88 wrote: Sun Arise is a much better song than Fields Of Regret. Even Rolfs version is better. Also, why would they re-do a song from their last album? It makes no sense.
Nobody bought the last one, so no one would have known haha

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Re: Bob Ezrin-Past, Present And Future

Post by pitkin88 » Fri Aug 04, 2017 9:30 pm

Ted Sallis wrote:
ThePainAddict wrote:LITD - Hallowed, not really a completes song, sounds awesome, but a short ditty. Sun Arise, a needless cover to getting a respectable running time. The production makes it work, but another original should have been done.
Black Juju begins the overproduction, trying to get all the nuances of a stage performance on record. Takes way too long to slow down and the wake up isn't immediate, so not as effective.
Killer - Y,Y,Y filler material (mock Beatles?), weaker song.
Killer, the ending again tries to create the stage effect, but seems to go on a long time, again helping to get decent running time.
SO - Alma Mater, again filler material.
Grand Finale, an overworked pastiche of leftover jams. Would have been better served to create an actual song. Again, this seems like it was created to get decent running time.
BDB - ST, really not much to this song at all. MA, filler material a reworking a Beautiful Flyaway would have been better.
US & ILtD, both again try to create that stage sense with extended sequence for the theatrics. However, both utilize similar faux James Bond sound. These the vamp out of MA and the long outro of GL all seem designed to get a good running time.
My thoughts:

LITD - Hallowed: I'm not sure why you consider this song to be incomplete, apart from it's shortness. It's quite a gritty track, similar to Long Way To Go in that regard, and the guitar is often punctuated by organ. I've always quite liked it.

Killer - Y,Y,Y: Okay, if I HAD to pick a filler track on the album, it would either be this one or YDMN. But I think it's a great song.
Killer: I think the length of the ending helps set the right mood for the song.

SO - Alma Mater: Again, if I HAD to pick a filler track on the album, it would be this one. But I still quite like it, it's quite tuneful throughout.
Grande Finale: Re. would have been better served to create an actual song - The SO album is considered to be what I term an 'alternate soundtrack' to the movie West Side Story. Grande Finale therefore is what would have played over the end credits.

BDB - ST and MA: Once again, if I HAD to pick filler tracks on the album, it would be these 2. In this case, I don't have much positive to say about them except that the music of ST definitely fits the song title. Re. a reworking of Beautiful Flyaway, would you have wanted MB to sing lead on the remake like he did on the original? Just curious.
US and ILTD: I agree that both try to create that stage sense, etc. I do think the long outro of GL is fitting.

I'm curious to know which MOL songs you regard as filler but as BE didn't produce the album, I guess that should be a discussion for another thread.

Ted

There are no filler tracks ans you don't have to pick any. Alice Cooper will be remembered critically with the four first Ezrin albums.

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Re: Bob Ezrin-Past, Present And Future

Post by mr.barlow » Fri Aug 04, 2017 10:02 pm

I agree. I don't think any of the songs on LITd thru B$B can be considered "filler" tracks. Those album are basically flawless.

The same can be said of MOL. Although, it's not a flawless album, the songs are all decent. That album suffers from not having Ezrin, but most of all from exhaustion and burnout.

I would love to have Ezrin get the original tapes and do his version of MOL. This time around they could do a really novel idea and release it in a cardboard box!

I think Alice has defined himself more as a solo entity. For the most part the general public has no idea there was ever an original band. It's quite unfortunate but it seems that's the case. That's why it's great to see the original members getting some glory this time around.

If there was ever a time for the original band to get HUGE exposure and recognition is if they can get "Genuine American Girl" to break. It needs a video and it needs a huge social media push. Also, if they are going to get Alice on any tv appearances I would hope it would be with the original band and performing this song.

The visuals to go along with that song are endless--it can incorporate straight, gay, and the confused! All done with satire and comedy that can bring some levity to a very contentious issue here in the USA.

God I can see Rip Taylor throwing confetti at the end of the thing!

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Re: Bob Ezrin-Past, Present And Future

Post by Ted Sallis » Sat Aug 05, 2017 2:00 am

mr.barlow wrote:I agree. I don't think any of the songs on LITd thru B$B can be considered "filler" tracks. Those album are basically flawless.

The same can be said of MOL. Although, it's not a flawless album, the songs are all decent. That album suffers from not having Ezrin, but most of all from exhaustion and burnout.
I wouldn't go quite so far as to call LITD through BDB basically flawless but their shortcomings are pretty much minimal, especially on LITD and Killer. MOL also has minimal flaws; I also think it's debatable as to how much or how little that album suffers from BE's non-participation. Exhaustion and burnout (creatively, at least) might be factors which led to MOL turning out as it did.

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Re: Bob Ezrin-Past, Present And Future

Post by padre_sliprat » Sat Aug 05, 2017 2:25 am

I can't find filler on any of the band's 7 studio releases. Granted, there are songs I don't care for, but each album is it's own kind of perfection.
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Re: Bob Ezrin-Past, Present And Future

Post by HORRORHOLIC » Sat Aug 05, 2017 3:20 am

I love a lot of the things he's done with Alice in the past, but as I've stated recently, there creativity together seems to have run it's course.

I don't like the Weird Al type sound and humor he seems to steer Alice in the direction of, Welcome 2 My Nightmare should have went in the direction Alice originally intended, darker songs such as Under My Bed. I'm not too big on the way Alice's vocals are recorded either. Doesn't sound much like Alice to me. He sounds much better live actually. Someone mentioned the session players, I don't like that either. The current band is so good live these days, it would have been nice to bring that sound and energy to the new album.

So while I respect what they've done together, I really, really think Alice should move on. I think they're just too comfortable together if that makes sense. Rick Rubin and Alice would be perfect!
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Re: Bob Ezrin-Past, Present And Future

Post by HORRORHOLIC » Sat Aug 05, 2017 3:37 am

mr.barlow wrote:
I don't think Alice is out to make a cutting edge album and jump on the hipster wagon at this point in his life. He does not need to be--or want to be-- "pushed", "tested", "prodded", "poked", "needled" when making an album.
Maybe not, but as fans we want the best quality in music. And I think Alice being challenged a bit more would be the way to do it.
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Re: Bob Ezrin-Past, Present And Future

Post by Babysquid » Sat Aug 05, 2017 6:14 am

ThePainAddict wrote: Black Juju begins the overproduction, trying to get all the nuances of a stage performance on record. Takes way too long to slow down and the wake up isn't immediate, so not as effective.
Overproduction? Wasn't it a live studio take?

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Re: Bob Ezrin-Past, Present And Future

Post by guttertrash » Sat Aug 05, 2017 1:32 pm

Some of the basic tracks may be live, but I highly doubt much was kept from the original scratch tracks. Alice is not a good source for this info either as he claims Neal plays on Fireball, but the style and the liner notes point to Larry Mullen. Maybe the original band recorded live? Their tracks are muddier than the other tracks, and this could explain that.

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Re: Bob Ezrin-Past, Present And Future

Post by Ted Sallis » Sat Aug 05, 2017 2:17 pm

Babysquid wrote:
ThePainAddict wrote: Black Juju begins the overproduction, trying to get all the nuances of a stage performance on record. Takes way too long to slow down and the wake up isn't immediate, so not as effective.
Overproduction? Wasn't it a live studio take?
Dennis stated in his book that Black Juju was recorded live in the studio, with vocals. THe band did 2 takes and decided to use the 1st one.

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Re: Bob Ezrin-Past, Present And Future

Post by Ted Sallis » Sat Aug 05, 2017 2:26 pm

ThePainAddict wrote:Sun Arise, a needless cover to getting a respectable running time. The production makes it work, but another original should have been done.
Black Juju begins the overproduction, trying to get all the nuances of a stage performance on record. Takes way too long to slow down and the wake up isn't immediate, so not as effective.
Sorry, I neglected to provide my thoughts on Sun Arise and Black Juju. The former does stand apart from the rest of the album, not only because it's a cover but also as it boasts a lighter, more uplifting style. Dennis elaborates in his book how the Group altered and enhanced the song when they recorded it and that and the fact that the sound of the song (in particular the guitars) fits in with the sound of the rest of LITD wins it over for me.

As for Black Juju, as I previously stated, the song was a live take with vocals. The length of time the song takes to 'slow down' works as it helps set the mood, etc.

Ted

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Re: Bob Ezrin-Past, Present And Future

Post by cooperrocks » Sat Aug 05, 2017 3:58 pm

I respectfully disagree. While those first four Ezrin albums really good, there are a few songs I would consider filler. Muscle of Love would make my bottom five list of Alice albums.

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Re: Bob Ezrin-Past, Present And Future

Post by guttertrash » Sat Aug 05, 2017 5:45 pm

cooperrocks wrote:I respectfully disagree. While those first four Ezrin albums really good, there are a few songs I would consider filler. Muscle of Love would make my bottom five list of Alice albums.
Of course, it is all subjective, but I can listen to LITD through MOL consistently without ever wanting to skip a song. I do it quite often. I feel like it was the strength of the ACG to be able to sound great with both the short, straight-ahead rockers and the more epic and theatrical pieces. They had a raw, primal element that fit well with Detroit's scene, but they also were tempered with enough pop elements that it was able to be liked by a larger crowd than The Stooges, MC5, and the like. That is where Ezrin was gold in those early years in helping them find that perfect middle ground in both writing and production. It is what was lost after WTMN. MOL is a very tired band just not hitting on all cylinders. Ezrin could have possibly made it better, but his production by that point could have also made their exhaustion standout more by creating an album that used production as a means of trying to hide weaker writing than before, so the stripped down approach may actually have been beneficial.

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