Vinyl rip vs. 24-bit Studio Masters

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Vinyl rip vs. 24-bit Studio Masters

Post by TeresofBlood » Sat Jul 29, 2017 11:58 pm

Hi all. I thought I'd share this. I ripped my vinyl today and under-laid the 24-bit studio tracks to align the start and stop points of each song, to splice the different takes of each side. Take a look at the difference in dynamic range between the vinyl and 24-bit version (presumably same as CD and MP3). One of the biggest travesties is the Sound of A. On the vinyl, it's quieter, ushering the listener out of the album. On the digital version, it's stretched to be one of the loudest songs on the album.

http://imgur.com/a/YU1Sb

Anyone else who bought the vinyl plan to slice it open and listen to it? It's worth it. That vinyl warmth and dynamic range really evokes the analogue sound of the glory days of the band.

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Re: Vinyl rip vs. 24-bit Studio Masters

Post by homerx » Sun Jul 30, 2017 1:31 am

Yeah I will likely do a rip of the vinyl to lossless FLAC. The Dynamic Range Data base puts the CD album at a 6. I made a copy of Dynamite Road. It was at 11.
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Re: Vinyl rip vs. 24-bit Studio Masters

Post by mr.barlow » Sun Jul 30, 2017 1:34 am

I like to listen to mine on AM radio!

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Re: Vinyl rip vs. 24-bit Studio Masters

Post by Toronto Bob » Sun Jul 30, 2017 2:06 am

I plan on doing a vinyl rip as well. Exactly for the reason you demonstrated. I don't think of myself as a vinyl snob but wav forms looking like 2x4's makes me glad I purchased the vinyl discs.

I'm perpetually digitizing my vinyl collection and am dismayed at the amount of surface noise on some records I have, records that did not get over played and were well taken care of. They are usually pressings of back catalogue from the mid-eighties when cds were starting to take over and maybe quality control was starting to slip. So I'm not one to say vinyl always or even mostly sound better than cds, just that digital music took a step back when the loudness wars started, coinciding with the proliferation of the ipod.

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Re: Vinyl rip vs. 24-bit Studio Masters

Post by Si » Sun Jul 30, 2017 9:26 am

Another example of the issue. Here's a Spectral of 'Fireball' I did last night. First half is vinyl, the second half is direct from CD.
http://www.sickthingsuk.co.uk/images/fireball.jpg

For the uninitiated who know even less than me about "brickwalling"), while it might look like the first vinyl half should be louder, in fact it is significantly quieter then the second half. The 'brickwalling' causes all the sound frequencies above a certain point to simply be lost completely never to return.

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Re: Vinyl rip vs. 24-bit Studio Masters

Post by TeresofBlood » Sun Jul 30, 2017 11:55 am

I would be interested in sharing our results to compare what we've all captured, as this is really my first attempt at recording vinyl. I've had the equipment to do 24/96 recording but my turntable has been boxed up for the last 3 years. I very meticulously set the levels and recorded each side. Every time a hair got stuck on the needle, I'd restart the song or the side to get the cleanest recording possible. In listening to it a couple times last night, there are one or two songs I'd like to try to rerecord. I also didn't remove any clicks, pops, or needle sounds in between the songs. I wanted to preserve as much of the captured sound and ambiance as possible.

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Re: Vinyl rip vs. 24-bit Studio Masters

Post by Saint&Sinner » Sun Jul 30, 2017 3:41 pm

Yes, this is an ongoing trend unfortunately. If anyone is interested, the loudness wars have been well documented around the web.
I think the rationale is that people buying vinyl are more likely to be audiophiles (or at the least a bit more picky) so they do a quieter mix
They see the CD/MP3 as more "commercial" so they mix it louder (brickwalling)it. In most cases the loss of sound frequencies are not noticeable to the human ear but in some cases they can come off as "harsh"

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Re: Vinyl rip vs. 24-bit Studio Masters

Post by guttertrash » Sun Jul 30, 2017 4:31 pm

Most albums now are recorded with the loudness wars in mind, so you end up with heavier compression used which tends to screw up instrument tones and smooths them out to the point that they are limp and have no bite, and in some instances, guitars get lost in the mix or lose their shape and become just a wall of noise. Bass and kick drum have come to the point that they overpower everything on digital recordings, and I hate it.

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Re: Vinyl rip vs. 24-bit Studio Masters

Post by pitkin88 » Sun Jul 30, 2017 5:20 pm

Si wrote:Another example of the issue. Here's a Spectral of 'Fireball' I did last night. First half is vinyl, the second half is direct from CD.
http://www.sickthingsuk.co.uk/images/fireball.jpg

For the uninitiated who know even less than me about "brickwalling"), while it might look like the first vinyl half should be louder, in fact it is significantly quieter then the second half. The 'brickwalling' causes all the sound frequencies above a certain point to simply be lost completely never to return.

Be nice if you could post some samples Si to see if people here get it. The first Alice CD I noticed brickwalling to a really bad extent was the BDB double cd. It is near impossible to listen to with headphones on. I think TEOAC suffers pretty badly too but I haven't played that one in a long time.

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Re: Vinyl rip vs. 24-bit Studio Masters

Post by Babysquid » Sun Jul 30, 2017 7:23 pm

guttertrash wrote:Most albums now are recorded with the loudness wars in mind, so you end up with heavier compression used which tends to screw up instrument tones and smooths them out to the point that they are limp and have no bite, and in some instances, guitars get lost in the mix or lose their shape and become just a wall of noise. Bass and kick drum have come to the point that they overpower everything on digital recordings, and I hate it.
These loudness wars have been going on for ages now! i wouldn't point the finger directly at the artists or producer though. I might even let the mastering engineer off (sometimes). i wouldn't be surprised if the record companies hadn't and still push for this sort of thing.

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Re: Vinyl rip vs. 24-bit Studio Masters

Post by TeresofBlood » Sun Jul 30, 2017 7:39 pm

pitkin88 wrote:
Si wrote:Another example of the issue. Here's a Spectral of 'Fireball' I did last night. First half is vinyl, the second half is direct from CD.
http://www.sickthingsuk.co.uk/images/fireball.jpg

For the uninitiated who know even less than me about "brickwalling"), while it might look like the first vinyl half should be louder, in fact it is significantly quieter then the second half. The 'brickwalling' causes all the sound frequencies above a certain point to simply be lost completely never to return.

Be nice if you could post some samples Si to see if people here get it. The first Alice CD I noticed brickwalling to a really bad extent was the BDB double cd. It is near impossible to listen to with headphones on. I think TEOAC suffers pretty badly too but I haven't played that one in a long time.
Eyes is insanely brick walled. I recall it being one of the worst. I'd be willing to create some samples, though I'm not sure what the rules are about posting. Anybody curious to make up their own mind about it can PM me.

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Re: Vinyl rip vs. 24-bit Studio Masters

Post by dadascot » Sun Jul 30, 2017 8:19 pm

I'm very tempted to buy the vinyl but my record player, while ok, isn't great and I play through a soundbar so I'm not sure the quality would be better. Anyone got any advice
Last edited by dadascot on Sun Jul 30, 2017 8:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Vinyl rip vs. 24-bit Studio Masters

Post by guttertrash » Sun Jul 30, 2017 8:26 pm

Babysquid wrote:
guttertrash wrote:Most albums now are recorded with the loudness wars in mind, so you end up with heavier compression used which tends to screw up instrument tones and smooths them out to the point that they are limp and have no bite, and in some instances, guitars get lost in the mix or lose their shape and become just a wall of noise. Bass and kick drum have come to the point that they overpower everything on digital recordings, and I hate it.
These loudness wars have been going on for ages now! i wouldn't point the finger directly at the artists or producer though. I might even let the mastering engineer off (sometimes). i wouldn't be surprised if the record companies hadn't and still push for this sort of thing.
The mindset is that louder is better. It is more noticeable and stands out among something softer. Labels and producers both had a huge say in it. Rick Rubin is one of the worst about it. Californication and Death Magnetic were railed for it, but most of his albums in the last two decades suffer from it, and it has been put squarely on him and not the master engineer. I'd definitely let the master engineer off the hook in most cases, because he is either dealing with an already ragged production or he is having to take a production and make it loud to please those at the label.

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Re: Vinyl rip vs. 24-bit Studio Masters

Post by Si » Sun Jul 30, 2017 9:17 pm

Babysquid wrote:
guttertrash wrote:Most albums now are recorded with the loudness wars in mind, so you end up with heavier compression used which tends to screw up instrument tones and smooths them out to the point that they are limp and have no bite, and in some instances, guitars get lost in the mix or lose their shape and become just a wall of noise. Bass and kick drum have come to the point that they overpower everything on digital recordings, and I hate it.
These loudness wars have been going on for ages now! i wouldn't point the finger directly at the artists or producer though. I might even let the mastering engineer off (sometimes). i wouldn't be surprised if the record companies hadn't and still push for this sort of thing.
There's a good video on youtube featuring various well known (in the business) producers and mastering techs and they all hate it and say they are told to do it by the record companies. They don`t have a choice if they want to work.
No decent producer would want his work presented in that way if he had the choice.

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Re: Vinyl rip vs. 24-bit Studio Masters

Post by TeresofBlood » Sun Jul 30, 2017 9:35 pm

dadascot wrote:I'm very tempted to buy the vinyl but my record player, while ok, isn't great and I play through a soundbar so I'm not sure the quality would be better. Anyone got any advice
Can you plug headphones into your turntable/amplifier? A decent pair of headphones is all you need. Even on a not so great record player, vinyl will still sound less harsh to your ears, especially during the louder parts of songs.

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Re: Vinyl rip vs. 24-bit Studio Masters

Post by dadascot » Sun Jul 30, 2017 10:09 pm

TeresofBlood wrote:
dadascot wrote:I'm very tempted to buy the vinyl but my record player, while ok, isn't great and I play through a soundbar so I'm not sure the quality would be better. Anyone got any advice
Can you plug headphones into your turntable/amplifier? A decent pair of headphones is all you need. Even on a not so great record player, vinyl will still sound less harsh to your ears, especially during the louder parts of songs.
Good shout

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Re: Vinyl rip vs. 24-bit Studio Masters

Post by homerx » Sun Jul 30, 2017 10:28 pm

A good website is The Dynamic Range Database. In the past it was done so the song would stand out while on the radio. Today I'd blame cellphones being the primary playback device. Poor built in speakers and headphones being used.Sadly this also seems to apply to remasters of older albums as well.

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Re: Vinyl rip vs. 24-bit Studio Masters

Post by Daggers & Contracts » Mon Jul 31, 2017 1:00 am

mr.barlow wrote:I like to listen to mine on AM radio!
Top post of the topic! :clap:
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Re: Vinyl rip vs. 24-bit Studio Masters

Post by While Heaven Wept » Mon Jul 31, 2017 11:23 am

I may have to get myself a copy. The digital versions are ear bleeders.

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Re: Vinyl rip vs. 24-bit Studio Masters

Post by Saint&Sinner » Mon Jul 31, 2017 10:16 pm

i wouldn't be surprised if the record companies hadn't and still push for this sort of thing
I believe it all went back to early 90's -something else the 90s did wrong ;) -And it came down to radio play, the thinking was that if the songs were louder they would stand out on the radio and be more likely to make an impression. So this then escalated until the point they are all brick walled.
A good pair of headphones will definitely show it up. One of the most notable "fights" against it was Chinese democracy - regardless of whether you like it or not (I do) it is an audiophiles wet dream .
There are albums it bothers me on, but unless i'm putting it through my good headphones and properly "listening" to it, most sound good going through my amp and speaker set up (and they are both good systems)
I think sometimes it can help, I think this latest alice album it actually gives it a little bite....a little punch on the back end, which I think helps it stand proud.

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