When will there be a Paranormal album review

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Re: When will there be a Paranormal album review

Post by A_MichaelUK » Tue Jul 18, 2017 9:28 am

From guttertrash:
I am at a loss. Was Alice so hated that a label decided to try to kill his career even though he supposedly just exceeded expectstions?

Who said he was "hated" and where did I state anything even remotely close to that? I actually checked yesterday with Toby Mamis and he confirmed everything I stated. If you prefer to believe what you read on the internet that's your business, but if it was a case of just exaggerating figures to make Alice look good, then that could just as easily be done for the albums that didn't do as well. Also, you are citing a source which did not start counting until 1991 which was two years after the album was releaed but you still haven't addressed that. If you want to continue this, there is a thread on these figures from 2013 which you might find informative.

> If Trash went double platinum after just a year, it would seem like Epic/Sony would have had a field day.

Well, like I already stated, they took out a full - page advertisement in "Billboard" to anounce it (although I'm willing to be corrected on the actual contents of it).

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Re: When will there be a Paranormal album review

Post by Si » Tue Jul 18, 2017 9:59 am

A_MichaelUK wrote:
Well, like I already stated, they took out a full - page advertisement in "Billboard" to anounce it (although I'm willing to be corrected on the actual contents of it).
http://www.americanradiohistory.com/Arc ... -07-29.pdf
Page 11


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Re: When will there be a Paranormal album review

Post by A_MichaelUK » Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:02 am

From Si:
"http://www.americanradiohistory.com/Arc ... -07-29.pdf
Page 11"

That isn't the one I'm referring to.

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Re: When will there be a Paranormal album review

Post by Si » Tue Jul 18, 2017 12:36 pm

A_MichaelUK wrote:From Si:
"http://www.americanradiohistory.com/Arc ... -07-29.pdf
Page 11"

That isn't the one I'm referring to.
Damn. I looked a month before and a month after the release but that is the only one I found before giving up

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Re: When will there be a Paranormal album review

Post by A_MichaelUK » Tue Jul 18, 2017 12:43 pm

From Si:
"Damn. I looked a month before and a month after the release but that is the only one I found before giving up"

The one I'm referring to was from 1990, about a year after the album was released.

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Re: When will there be a Paranormal album review

Post by Si » Tue Jul 18, 2017 2:08 pm

A_MichaelUK wrote:From Si:
"Damn. I looked a month before and a month after the release but that is the only one I found before giving up"

The one I'm referring to was from 1990, about a year after the album was released.

If it helps
As of 6th Jan issue it's noted on the chart listing that the album is already over 500,000 copies in the US.
By Feb. 17th it is signified as over 1 million.

7th July has a full page ad, page 82, but doesn`t mention Double platinum, just platinum. Is this the one? It is interesting in that it's an advert that doesn`t really advertise anything.
http://www.americanradiohistory.com/Arc ... -07-07.pdf

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Re: When will there be a Paranormal album review

Post by guttertrash » Tue Jul 18, 2017 2:24 pm

The totals that I have seen were the soundscan sales since 1991 which were around 300,000 added to the RIAA shipment totals which were 1.2 million. The total would be around 1.5 million.

My comment about " who hated Alice" was facetious. I understand that wasn't the issue. I'm just not getting how they had lost hope in him enough in six months to not update his record certification which had already been updated early that year, but yet went along with him going back into the studio to record another album that basically followed the Trash prototype of pop/metal with a starstudded cast.

Grunge is not the answer either. Alice In Chains had released Facelift, but it was only gold in September of 1991 (after Hey Stoopid came
Out). Nirvana, Soundgarden, and Pearl Jam didn't have hit albums or singles released until August and September of 1991. Which meant that Hey Stoopid probably had 500,000 ship, but it mostly stalled about two months later when grunge hit. Nobody however knew the tidal wave was coming in 1990 though, and this is why it makes sense that Epic assumed Hey Stoopid would be a fine follow-up and leaves me dumbfounded about the label not caring enough about Alice in July 1990 to get his certification if it was deserved. Are we also positive that the add was for the U.S. and not worldwide if there was one for 2 million albums sales? That would be a great feat all the same, even though, it doesn't put him in the upper echelon of hair/pop metal sales.

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Re: When will there be a Paranormal album review

Post by Daggers & Contracts » Tue Jul 18, 2017 5:26 pm

guttertrash wrote:The totals that I have seen were the soundscan sales since 1991 which were around 300,000 added to the RIAA shipment totals which were 1.2 million. The total would be around 1.5 million.

My comment about " who hated Alice" was facetious. I understand that wasn't the issue. I'm just not getting how they had lost hope in him enough in six months to not update his record certification which had already been updated early that year, but yet went along with him going back into the studio to record another album that basically followed the Trash prototype of pop/metal with a starstudded cast.

Grunge is not the answer either. Alice In Chains had released Facelift, but it was only gold in September of 1991 (after Hey Stoopid came
Out). Nirvana, Soundgarden, and Pearl Jam didn't have hit albums or singles released until August and September of 1991. Which meant that Hey Stoopid probably had 500,000 ship, but it mostly stalled about two months later when grunge hit. Nobody however knew the tidal wave was coming in 1990 though, and this is why it makes sense that Epic assumed Hey Stoopid would be a fine follow-up and leaves me dumbfounded about the label not caring enough about Alice in July 1990 to get his certification if it was deserved. Are we also positive that the add was for the U.S. and not worldwide if there was one for 2 million albums sales? That would be a great feat all the same, even though, it doesn't put him in the upper echelon of hair/pop metal sales.
Anyone here know how well the "Operation Rock 'n' Roll" tour did/or didn't do? I know that Motorhead dropped out just before the end of the tour. Alice was definitely promoting "Hey Stoopid."
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Re: When will there be a Paranormal album review

Post by Si » Tue Jul 18, 2017 5:40 pm

Daggers & Contracts wrote: Anyone here know how well the "Operation Rock 'n' Roll" tour did/or didn't do? I know that Motorhead dropped out just before the end of the tour. Alice was definitely promoting "Hey Stoopid."
As I remember it, it wasn`t the biggest success, and certainly not the success everyone expected it.
Apart from Priest and Alice, the support acts seemed to be a little hit and miss with the whole bill playing some shows, only some at others, and even stand ins at a few shows (see the 1991 timeline to see what I mean).
I can`t remember the details (I'm sure Andy does) but wasn`t there also some sort of fuel crisis or something that effected it as well?

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Re: When will there be a Paranormal album review

Post by A_MichaelUK » Tue Jul 18, 2017 6:03 pm

From Si:
7th July has a full page ad, page 82, but doesn`t mention Double platinum, just platinum. Is this the one?

Yes and as you say, it doesn't back up my claim although it isn't referring just to America though). However, I can only go by what I understood at the time and what I had confirmed to me yesterday and as we know, the kind of information we can all find on the internet doesn't mean it is going to be correct. The same people who will tell you a particular album sold well (and better than guttertrash thinks) will be the same people who will tell you that that certain albums were not particularly commercially successful. There is no agenda.

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Re: When will there be a Paranormal album review

Post by A_MichaelUK » Tue Jul 18, 2017 6:17 pm

From guttertrash:
"The totals that I have seen were the soundscan sales since 1991 which were around 300,000 added to the RIAA shipment totals which were 1.2 million. The total would be around 1.5 million."

The shipment totals would be figures given to them by Epic or the distributors and there's no way of knowing if those are accurate either. The record business is pretty notorious for shoddy accounting in all areas, as you probably know.

> I'm just not getting how they had lost hope in him enough in six months to not update his record certification which had already been updated early that year,

All you are doing is just speculating without knowing anything about what was going or the people involved. It was the eighties which was a very excessive time, if you know what I mean.

>but yet went along with him going back into the studio to record another album that basically followed the Trash prototype of pop/metal with a starstudded cast.

Actually, Epic were totally supportive of that album and it's relative failure (although it still did quite well) wasn't particularly down to any failing of theirs or anything like that.

Grunge is not the answer either. Alice In Chains had released Facelift, but it was only gold in September of 1991 (after Hey Stoopid came Out).

Actually that had a lot to do with it (as did the fact that the mainstream audience especially in America didn't connect with "Hey Stoopid" in the same way). The example you give doesn't quite make sense as the album you refer to was certified that way a couple of months after Alice's album so "Grunge" was definitely at the very least part of "the answer".

>Which meant that Hey Stoopid probably had 500,000 ship, but it mostly stalled about two months later when grunge hit.

Nobody is disagreeing with that. You seem to be arguing against yourself as to what was the reason.

> leaves me dumbfounded about the label not caring enough about Alice in July 1990 to get his certification if it was deserved.

You are starting to sound a bit obsessed. Everyone was drinking and on drugs at the record companies so they weren't necessarily concerned with that stuff as much they might have been. Who cares?! Why does it matter?

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Re: When will there be a Paranormal album review

Post by A_MichaelUK » Tue Jul 18, 2017 6:27 pm

From Si:
"As I remember it, it wasn`t the biggest success, and certainly not the success everyone expected it."

Yes, that's pretty accurate. I think some shows were very well attended but many others were not. One theory was that Judas Priest (who closed all or most of the shows) had only quite recently completed a major tour in America so there may have been slightly less demand to see a show with them on the bill. I also vaguely remember Brian Nelson saying people would leave after Alice's set. Also, it's possible the ticket price was relatively high given the number of bands on the bill. Either way, I don't doubt that whoever was promoting those shows lost a lot of money but that's part of that business.

>Apart from Priest and Alice, the support acts seemed to be a little hit and miss with the whole bill playing some shows, only some at others, and even stand ins at a few shows (see the 1991 timeline to see what I mean).

I think they were all meant to be on Epic which was the whole point.

>I can`t remember the details (I'm sure Andy does) but wasn`t there also some sort of fuel crisis or something that effected it as well?

That doesn't sound familiar.

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Re: When will there be a Paranormal album review

Post by guttertrash » Tue Jul 18, 2017 6:51 pm

You said that not long after Trash the main supporter of Alice was out at Epic, so he fail through the cracks basically. This however is logically untrue. He was pushed to the side in 1991 when grunge hit which effected Hey Stoopid and not Trash. I find it highly unlikely that Trash sold another million between early 1990 until mid 1990 with just Only My Heart Talkin' released as a single. When seeking certification in early 1990, it was platinum, and logically it seems highly unlikely that changed. Believe what you choose, but any evidence points to a big initial push in sales with Poison which went gold as a single as well, and then a pretty steady decline once the next two singles fizzled out, and the ballad which during that era generally brought a spike to sales of many albums did nothing.

I like to debate. Why else come to a forum if it is going to be a bunch of people always making each other happy. It gets boring and everything slows down when there is no back and forth. If that goes along with unraveling legends and trying to find where the myth meets a logical reality, why not take the time to see where the rabbit trail takes us?

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Re: When will there be a Paranormal album review

Post by A_MichaelUK » Tue Jul 18, 2017 8:18 pm

From guttertrash:
"You said that not long after Trash the main supporter of Alice was out at Epic, so he fail through the cracks basically."

No I did not. You wrote: ""Epic took the time to get Firehouse, Living Colour, and Europe their albums certified double platinum on November 9th, 1994 (yes, all at the same time)." I replied: "Actually that's more or less what happened because within a year of that date, Alice's biggest supporter had left the company.
That person was there from the beginning until after "The Last Temptation was released. When that person left the label, Alice left as well. There were no "cracks" to fall into.

>This however is logically untrue. He was pushed to the side in 1991 when grunge hit which effected Hey Stoopid and not Trash.

That has nothing to with album certifications.

>I find it highly unlikely that Trash sold another million between early 1990 until mid 1990 with just Only My Heart Talkin' released as a single.

You are forgetting the extensive tour of America in the early part of that year though.

> Believe what you choose,

Thanks. I will put my faith in the people that were there rather than something you dug up on the internet. That doesn't mean one has to believe what one is told even by people that were there, but their story as told me since 1990 has been consistent since 1990 with no benefit accrued by any exaggeration.

>I like to debate.

Me too but I try to do it without an agenda.

> If that goes along with unraveling legends and trying to find where the myth meets a logical reality, why not take the time to see where the rabbit trail takes us?

I can tell you are wasting your time on a very unimportant issue but if you want to carry on debating a half a million copies that were or were not sold of an album, when neither of us has a financial interest in it, feel free to contact me privately.

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Re: When will there be a Paranormal album review

Post by SickThings » Tue Jul 18, 2017 9:51 pm

A_MichaelUK wrote:I also vaguely remember Brian Nelson saying people would leave after Alice's set.
My friends and I did in Nashville. We arrived just in time to see Motorhead do "Ace Of Spades," then they left the stage. Alice played, and we left three songs into the Judas Priest set, which was so polished that it was boring.

Hunter

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Re: When will there be a Paranormal album review

Post by Daggers & Contracts » Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:51 pm

SickThings wrote:
A_MichaelUK wrote:I also vaguely remember Brian Nelson saying people would leave after Alice's set.
My friends and I did in Nashville. We arrived just in time to see Motorhead do "Ace Of Spades," then they left the stage. Alice played, and we left three songs into the Judas Priest set, which was so polished that it was boring.

Hunter
Thanks for all of your answers!! :clap:
It was my 2nd time seeing AC & yes as far as I was concerned AC was the best on the stage that night. Dangerous Toys -OK, Metal Church - good enough that I was impressed, Motorhead - a no show. Hunter, leaving 3 songs into the Priest set you missed the Sing-a-Long! Yes, the 1st part of their set was slick & Rob was in great form but about halfway through Rob seemed to be going through the motions & encouraging the audience to participate. This was at a time when he was having throat issues & he left the band shortly thereafter.
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Re: When will there be a Paranormal album review

Post by pitkin88 » Wed Jul 19, 2017 1:11 am

Anymore reviews?

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Re: When will there be a Paranormal album review

Post by mestreech » Wed Jul 19, 2017 3:01 am

Yes, back to the original topic please.

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Re: When will there be a Paranormal album review

Post by padre_sliprat » Wed Jul 19, 2017 3:45 am

pitkin88 wrote:Anymore reviews?
:drink:
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