New Alice Album in 2 or 3 months

[Ted Sallis]

Without doubt the AC group's material has stood the test of time, arguably better than the solo stuff IMO.

...You replace them (Alice's touring band) with the originals and IMO you'll lose a lot of that chemistry straight away.
Whilst I respect and love the music that was written back in the 70's I would argue that they couldn't add much more musically to what the touring band currently present. (Not to say that I wouldn't pay to see the original group in a one off show).

For people to dismiss Alice's solo stuff is very naive. He's a very clever lyricist and songwriter and if all you are listening to is the original bands music then there is a lot of work (some good, some bad) being overlooked.
I am slightly concerned that what we are going to get another rock n roll album. I was hoping a slight change of direction. Someone mentioned a country album. That would be awesome.

I agree with the 1st point in your comment above. Re. your 2nd point about loosing a lot of the chemistry by replacing Alice's touring band with the ACG, you may be right.

As for the ACG not being able to add much more musically to what Alice's touring band currently presents, I definitely disagree. MB, NS and DD co-wrote 1 song each for W2MN and they have collaborated on several songs which may be included on Alice's next album.

As far as dismissing Alice's solo stuff as being very naive, I don't agree. Alice may be a good/clever lyricist but in the ACG days it was the band (mainly MB) that wrote the music. I've listened to quite a bit of Alice's solo material and while some of it isn't bad, there's also a fair bit of mediocre stuff (i.e. Years Ago, Model Citizen). Plus look at the sales figures. The ACG had 6 gold records in a row and I believe most of them have long since gone platinum. When has Alice solo had similar success?

You think that if Alice does a country album that that would be awesome? I'd definitely want to reserve judgement until I heard the album!

Ted

[bigbradwolf]

Without doubt the AC group's material has stood the test of time, arguably better than the solo stuff IMO.

...You replace them (Alice's touring band) with the originals and IMO you'll lose a lot of that chemistry straight away.
Whilst I respect and love the music that was written back in the 70's I would argue that they couldn't add much more musically to what the touring band currently present. (Not to say that I wouldn't pay to see the original group in a one off show).

For people to dismiss Alice's solo stuff is very naive. He's a very clever lyricist and songwriter and if all you are listening to is the original bands music then there is a lot of work (some good, some bad) being overlooked.
I am slightly concerned that what we are going to get another rock n roll album. I was hoping a slight change of direction. Someone mentioned a country album. That would be awesome.

I agree with the 1st point in your comment above. Re. your 2nd point about loosing a lot of the chemistry by replacing Alice's touring band with the ACG, you may be right.

As for the ACG not being able to add much more musically to what Alice's touring band currently presents, I definitely disagree. MB, NS and DD co-wrote 1 song each for W2MN and they have collaborated on several songs which may be included on Alice's next album.

As far as dismissing Alice's solo stuff as being very naive, I don't agree. Alice may be a good/clever lyricist but in the ACG days it was the band (mainly MB) that wrote the music. I've listened to quite a bit of Alice's solo material and while some of it isn't bad, there's also a fair bit of mediocre stuff (i.e. Years Ago, Model Citizen). Plus look at the sales figures. The ACG had 6 gold records in a row and I believe most of them have long since gone platinum. When has Alice solo had similar success?

You think that if Alice does a country album that that would be awesome? I'd definitely want to reserve judgement until I heard the album!

Ted

I'm taking nothing away from the original band because some of the music they collaborated together with Alice as a band was nothing short of epic at times. Alice has always been one to push boundaries (which is why the band made it big in the first place). My understanding is (correct me if I'm wrong) that the band wanted to be more music and less about the theatrics. I would say there are some very good solo albums that are up there with the band. I'd list WTMN, FTI, Last Temptation and Brutal Planet as some absolute classics.
The other point I wanted to make was the MOL album in my opinion was weak as ACG albums go and who's to say that the band weren't going to live up to the classics that they had already released further down the line.

[Ted Sallis]

I'm taking nothing away from the original band because some of the music they collaborated together with Alice as a band was nothing short of epic at times. Alice has always been one to push boundaries (which is why the band made it big in the first place). My understanding is (correct me if I'm wrong) that the band wanted to be more music and less about the theatrics. I would say there are some very good solo albums that are up there with the band. I'd list WTMN, FTI, Last Temptation and Brutal Planet as some absolute classics.
The other point I wanted to make was the MOL album in my opinion was weak as ACG albums go and who's to say that the band weren't going to live up to the classics that they had already released further down the line.

IMHO a lot of the music the ACG made was epic: Black Juju, Ballad of Dwight Fry, Halo of Flies, Dead Babies, Killer, My Stars, etc. I also believe the hit single I'm Eighteen really started the ACG's rise to the top which in turned owed a great deal to Jack Richardson and Bob Ezrin's involvement.

Regarding the rest of the ACG wanting to be more music and less about the theatrics, this of course has been debated so much here and elsewhere. My take on it: Alice is the one who has stated that. Dennis stated in his book that the band did consider dropping the theatrics for awhile at one point. It's not impossible - which has also been mentioned here - that Alice may have been referring to that when he has mentioned the rest of the Group wanting to drop the theatrics.

I don't think WTMN and what I've heard from FTI can begin to match the ACG's classic albums. I haven't heard much (if anything) from The Last Temptation so I can't compare. As for Brutal Planet, I have a copy of the CD and the title track has its moments/some catchiness. The rest of the album I found mediocre.

Re. MOL, I believe it has some of the ACG's best songs on it: Big Apple Dreamin', Hard Hearted Alice and Man with the Golden Gun. I'm not sure what you're referring to when you state who's to say that the band weren't going to live up to the classics that they had already released further down the line.

Ted

[bigbradwolf]

I'm taking nothing away from the original band because some of the music they collaborated together with Alice as a band was nothing short of epic at times. Alice has always been one to push boundaries (which is why the band made it big in the first place). My understanding is (correct me if I'm wrong) that the band wanted to be more music and less about the theatrics. I would say there are some very good solo albums that are up there with the band. I'd list WTMN, FTI, Last Temptation and Brutal Planet as some absolute classics.
The other point I wanted to make was the MOL album in my opinion was weak as ACG albums go and who's to say that the band weren't going to live up to the classics that they had already released further down the line.

IMHO a lot of the music the ACG made was epic: Black Juju, Ballad of Dwight Fry, Halo of Flies, Dead Babies, Killer, My Stars, etc. I also believe the hit single I'm Eighteen really started the ACG's rise to the top which in turned owed a great deal to Jack Richardson and Bob Ezrin's involvement.

Regarding the rest of the ACG wanting to be more music and less about the theatrics, this of course has been debated so much here and elsewhere. My take on it: Alice is the one who has stated that. Dennis stated in his book that the band did consider dropping the theatrics for awhile at one point. It's not impossible - which has also been mentioned here - that Alice may have been referring to that when he has mentioned the rest of the Group wanting to drop the theatrics.

I don't think WTMN and what I've heard from FTI can begin to match the ACG's classic albums. I haven't heard much (if anything) from The Last Temptation so I can't compare. As for Brutal Planet, I have a copy of the CD and the title track has its moments/some catchiness. The rest of the album I found mediocre.

Re. MOL, I believe it has some of the ACG's best songs on it: Big Apple Dreamin', Hard Hearted Alice and Man with the Golden Gun. I'm not sure what you're referring to when you state who's to say that the band weren't going to live up to the classics that they had already released further down the line.

Ted

What I will say is that I believe the rawness of albums such LITD compliments the original group and you can hear and appreciate the talent and desire in the band,particularly in this album. Naturally the newer albums are too polished off and it loses an edge.
Eighteen and Dwight Frye are two of the most simplistic songs guitar wise to play and are absolutely without doubt two of the greatest tracks written. They are captured perfectly live and really bring the live shows to life.

Just out of interest what is it that turns you off solo artist Alice? Is it the differing styles in general?

MOL has some good tracks on it. Never Been Sold Before/Teenage Lament are my favourites off there.

[Ted Sallis]

What I will say is that I believe the rawness of albums such LITD compliments the original group and you can hear and appreciate the talent and desire in the band,particularly in this album. Naturally the newer albums are too polished off and it loses an edge.
Eighteen and Dwight Frye are two of the most simplistic songs guitar wise to play and are absolutely without doubt two of the greatest tracks written. They are captured perfectly live and really bring the live shows to life.

Just out of interest what is it that turns you off solo artist Alice? Is it the differing styles in general?

MOL has some good tracks on it. Never Been Sold Before/Teenage Lament are my favourites off there.

I agree about LITD - it laid the foundation and musical direction for the next few albums and I also agree that those same few albums are more polished/produced and therefore lack the same hard edge. Yes, I'm Eighteen and BODF are generally quite simplistic guitar-wise and I agree that Dwight Fry is one of the best ACG songs.

Generally I'm turned off by solo Alice due to the songs in my view being nowhere near as good and often lacking the cohesive style of the ACG songs on their classic albums. I guess the differing styles in general could be another reason or another way to explain my dislike of solo Alice.

NBSB is another song I really like on MOL. I even like CLC quite a bit although quite a few others here do not.

Ted

[guttertrash]

At the end of the day, Alice Cooper's solo albums have always chased trends of the moment. He always made a great song or two and some listenable material, but it never stood out from the pack of the era whereas the ACG who may have been ragged and raw and simplistic (all traits of the best rock n' roll bands) were timeless and don't sound dated. There is a swagger and groove that the band had that made those songs magical, and I'm so happy that Alice said the new album has a swagger like Killer.

The situation is a double-edged sword, because many bands of the time moved into new directions as the 70s faded into the 80s, but none of those bands made songs as great as their 70s output, and they all sounded like followers and not innovators. This also kept many of them from becoming forgotten, and I understand it, because the music world was completely different at that point. The ACG, Aerosmith, David Bowie, etc. were not in a time period where they could stay the same without repercussions in contrast to The Hellacopters who imo are the greatest rock band ever and changed over time but kept the basic concept and premise of who they were. They also never played the same level as Alice, but they took their influences and built upon it just like the ACG did, and they never strayed from the path, and they also never made a bad album.

Anyway, I hope the album has that swagger and groove of ACG era as has been said.

[Si]

Without getting into the same old ACG/Solo debate again, I've always thought that if the original band had stayed together, say until the early 80s, those latter albums were unlikely to be as great as the earlier ones.

Just look at the evidence of so many other bands from the period.
For some it was quicker then others, but many went through a late 70s/early 80s where, whether due to drugs/alcohol/general excess or ego, ended up releasing albums that just weren`t up to the level of their earlier work, if not changing style dramatically often to be more commercial. In doing so they lost the magic that made then great in the first place, and rarely really it recovered again. Sure there were great albums around but most never really caught that 'lightning in a bottle' of their earlier work.
Examples of the top of my head:
Kiss went pop(ish) (Dynasty/Unmasked etc)
Genesis went pop (starting around Duke)
Sabbath just lost it (Technical Ecstasy/Never Say Die)
The Tubes went pop (TCBP)
Bowie went disco (Lets Dance etc)
There are many more examples

Could the original band have bucked the trend? I tend to think they wouldn`t have. Even Battle Axe (which I kinda like, and was material prepared for a new band album) wasn`t up to the level of any of the band albums. Of course we'll never know.

[Ted Sallis]

^^ I would agree that if the original band had stayed together the albums they would have made were unlikely to be as great as the earlier ones; Dennis however stated in his book that if the ACG had taken the year off that they discussed and then regrouped, they could have gotten Alice and Glen cleaned up in the interim and then produced what Dennis thought would have been their best album ever.

Re. bands releasing albums that weren't up to the level of their earlier work, I agree with that sentiment concerning the following:

Kiss went pop(ish) (Dynasty/Unmasked etc)
Sabbath just lost it (Technical Ecstasy/Never Say Die)

I too tend to think that it was less likely that the ACG would have bucked the trend, but I believe that the Battle Axe album came quite close to the quality of the classic ACG albums.

Ted

[Lucius Morthem]

I think there is an important point you might been missing due to your age (no offense)

Some of the albums you're trying to compare to ACG are impossible to compare, especially when you bring Brutal Planet into the dance. Just remember that Brutal Planet was some kind of response to Columbine, Wars, and the state of humanity as a whole...

Many of the themes that were covered (or at least attempted to be covered) in Alice's solo career are realities away of what the ACG did or intended to do in the near future.

That's only an opinion of a relatively young fan. Do not kill me!

[pitkin88]

The album should be Side one Alice solo and Side two ACG.

[Si]

The album should be Side one Alice solo and Side two ACG.

Kinda hard to pull off properly on a CD

[A_MichaelUK]

From guttertrash:
"At the end of the day, Alice Cooper's solo albums have always chased trends of the moment."

That really is an exaggeration.

[jacknifejohnny]

I like that idea Pitkin, please the oldies and the newbies

[Ted Sallis]

The album should be Side one Alice solo and Side two ACG.

Kinda hard to pull off properly on a CD

Correct, Si. So since we've had Alice solo albums since 1975, I think it would have been great if the next album could have been all ACG and save the next Alice solo album for the one after that. But too late, I'm afraid.

Ted

[mr.barlow]

I'm sure everyone understands that the only reason Alice has had a career for nearly fifty years was his willingness and ability to change with the times. If you don't progess forward in the music industry (or anything in life for that matter) you become stale and forgotten. Alice always looked ahead.

You can hear the splintering of the musical direction of the original band from B$B to MOL. Ezrin crafted a slick album with B$B to take the band in a more commercial direction. Something that was started with School's Out. B$B went to #1! He wanted to take it to the next step and cement the band in the pop market with the next release. Most involved had other ideas and we got MOL which was a major step backwards. It's in my opinion a decent album but it was not a step forward which is what they needed at the time.

WTMN was that forward stepping album envisioned by Alice, Shep and Ezrin album and the rest is history.

Now as to Alice's solo career. To me his solo career is simply amazing and one of the most underrated stories in rock n roll history. Alice has basically been going constantly since 1975! The reason he has been able to do this? Change and adaptability and understanding music and cultural trends.

Let's put it this way, if the original group stayed together after MOL and continued to record the same old type of material they would have been over and done with by 1978. Looking back at songs that grew into the public conscience and became rock n roll staples after 40 years of airplay is easy. But at the time the songs were just stale Top 40 hits and the public--and more importantly the label-- wanted more Top 40 hits. It's always the next new thing in music. Alice understood this and still understands it to this day.

Alice's solo career had it's ups and downs. That's how it goes--but he ALWAYS tried to stay fresh and relevant and for the most part he succeeded. His ability to change is the number one reason he became a legend. Alice's solo career is a testament to his talent. He could write and sing in every genre. That's why his solo career is so special. At some point or another, everyone likes/liked an Alice Cooper song. Also, this had a lot to do with Alice becoming a universally loved person. He was able to connect on a lot of levels with a diverse audience. My 85 years old father who hates rock music loves "You & Me" and Alice's version of "I'm Always Chasing Rainbows". My dearly departed sainted mother loved "King Of The Silver Screen" and she loved Alice's sense of humor. My Dad to this day is amazed at Alice's staying power and thinks he is a business genius! An old girlfriend of mine who hates classic rock loves Alice because of FTF and SF. High school friends of mine came to love Alice with Constrictor and Trash. And it goes on and on.

Here is something to think about.
Alice went solo in 1975. We all know that his stardom at the time was due to his work and the work and output of the original band. The endless recording, touring, and working led the original band to number one and gave Alice the ability to launch from there.

His solo career from 1975 to 1983 had it's moments of great success but crashed and burned by 1983 for various reasons that we are all familiar with. It has to be understood that by 1984 Alice had lost the majority of his fan base and his public profile was greatly diminished to the point of being nearly forgotten. Within the course of 6 years he was back on the very top. "Trash" sold as many or more units than any of the ACG releases.

So my point is this--I would agree that the original band had a effect on Alice's early solo success and for arguments sake let's say it effected the entirety from 1975-1983--a period of 8 years.

For the last 31 years, I would say the original band had zero effect on the success of his solo career. I will agree that he plays the original songs live, but regrettably nearly 99% of the audience has no idea there was an original ACG. Also, I will go so far as to say that it's now Alice performing these songs that benefits and helps the original band members--at least financially. The turnaround, the rebuilding and the maintaining of his career is all Alice and Shep, along with everyone else from writers, musicians, management, etc who helped and who still make it possible.

I'm hoping the new album is fresh and original. I'm hoping the contributions are not rehashed throwback jaunts into nostalgia. If it has the feel of "Killer" as Alice has stated I'm hoping it's a 2017 original feel. We shall see.

[Ted Sallis]

You can hear the splintering of the musical direction of the original band from B$B to MOL. Ezrin crafted a slick album with B$B to take the band in a more commercial direction. Something that was started with School's Out. B$B went to #1! He wanted to take it to the next step and cement the band in the pop market with the next release. Most involved had other ideas and we got MOL which was a major step backwards. It's in my opinion a decent album but it was not a step forward which is what they needed at the time.

Let's put it this way, if the original group stayed together after MOL and continued to record the same old type of material they would have been over and done with by 1978.

Alice's solo career had it's ups and downs. That's how it goes--but he ALWAYS tried to stay fresh and relevant and for the most part he succeeded. His ability to change is the number one reason he became a legend. Alice's solo career is a testament to his talent. He could write and sing in every genre. That's why his solo career is so special.

Here is something to think about.
Alice went solo in 1975. We all know that his stardom at the time was due to his work and the work and output of the original band. The endless recording, touring, and working led the original band to number one and gave Alice the ability to launch from there.

His solo career from 1975 to 1983 had it's moments of great success but crashed and burned by 1983 for various reasons that we are all familiar with. It has to be understood that by 1984 Alice had lost the majority of his fan base and his public profile was greatly diminished to the point of being nearly forgotten. Within the course of 6 years he was back on the very top. "Trash" sold as many or more units than any of the ACG releases.

So my point is this--I would agree that the original band had a effect on Alice's early solo success and for arguments sake let's say it effected the entirety from 1975-1983--a period of 8 years.

For the last 31 years, I would say the original band had zero effect on the success of his solo career. I will agree that he plays the original songs live, but regrettably nearly 99% of the audience has no idea there was an original ACG. Also, I will go so far as to say that it's now Alice performing these songs that benefits and helps the original band members--at least financially. The turnaround, the rebuilding and the maintaining of his career is all Alice and Shep, along with everyone else from writers, musicians, management, etc who helped and who still make it possible.

1st of all I don't agree that MOL was a major step backwards. One of the reasons it didn't do as well sales-wise as BDB is because there wasn't a lengthy tour to support it. For BDB the band toured for 3 months. For MOL they toured for a little over 3 weeks. Big difference.

Re. your comment that the ACG would have been over and done with by 1978 if they stayed together and continued to record 'the same old type of material', who knows what 'type of material' they might have come up with? And your definition of 'same old type of material' could be different than other people's.

Regarding Alice solo having always tried to stay fresh and relevant, I would argue that Alice at times (not sure about always) tried to stay what HE thought was fresh and relevant.

As for his solo career from 1975 to 1983 having had it's moments of great success, I would state that the 1st 2 of those years ('75 and '76) were the greatly successful times and after then his successes were considerably fewer and further in between. Then, as you stated above, it took him 6 years (from 1983) to get back on top with Trash.

Re. your statement that for the last 31 years you would say the original band had zero effect on the success of his solo career, I ask you, if this is true then why does he play so many ACG songs live?

Ted

[pitkin88]

Zero effect? Try taking the ACG songs out of set list and the whole thing would collapse like a house of cards. Or would it.....

[mr.barlow]

Actually, there were many reasons MOL was not as successful as B$B. First off, making a follow up to such a classic album is always a near impossible task especially when the producer of that album is not involved. The discontentment within the band is another as there were differing opinions on the musical direction. The packaging was a disaster, the sailor suits, burn out, exhaustion and much more played a part in it.

As far as being over by 1978, the output, or lack thereof from the original band members basically gives credence to my statement. In 1975 Alice gave us WTMN, 1976 brought Goes To Hell, 1977 Lace & Whiskey, and 1978 From The Inside. Each of these albums were very different from each other, with Alice trying on new styles, rolling with musical trends and staying relevent. Remember, even on his downside he was still booked on "The Tonight Show" for the "Lace & Whiskey" album and had a huge hit with "You & Me". Anyone on here of a certain age knows what a huge deal it was to be on Carson back in the day! Could you list examples of the output of the original band members durng those years that would give us a reason to wish that Alice stayed with them. How did they progress and was it better than Alice's releases of that time?

I think Alice's biggest problem during that time had more to do with substance abuse and a total lack of support from WB. If WB properly backed FTF, had Alice been in better shape, and if they had a little better timing, it's my opinion FTF would have been a huge album and Alice would have coasted through the early 1980s as a new wave artist. Clones could have been a number 1 hit. It could have been huge. Wb didn't give the push the album needed and Alice was in quick decline with his addiction.

The albums from 1975 to 1980 all had hit singles. Most being in the Billboard Top 20. He charted with each of them. How is having Top 40 single every year being "fewer and farther between"? The albums from 1981-1983 were unsuccessfu, however the Special Forces tour was a success. WB gave zero support for any of those albums.

He hit rock bottom prior to recording Dada. he started picking up the pieces shortly after the Dada sessions and planning his comeback. That was 1984. Fast forward a mere two years and Alice gave us one of the most successful tours of his career and one of the most successful tours of anyboy that year. So--it did not take him 6 years to resurrect his career as you state. It was the success of the 1986 & 1987 tours that enabled Alice to garner the major label support to record Trash. Trust me--there is a huge difference being on Epic as opposed to MCA.

As far as the last 31 years are concerned,the original band had nothing to do with Alice's success or failure. If not for Alice writing the lyrics to those songs there would be no songs. He had an equal share in their success so why shouldn't he play them --he was the voice of those songs. The other members of the original ACG had and still have the opportunity to also take advantage of using those songs to their advantage. Can you explain why they chose not to?

I personally would be fine with a tour where Alice plays nothing but his solo material. I'm also hoping that no matter what degree of the original band's particpation in the new album that the album is fresh and original for 2017. Not a nostalgia trip to 1972.

[mr.barlow]

Zero effect? Try taking the ACG songs out of set list and the whole thing would collapse like a house of cards. Or would it.....

Alice wrote the lyrics to those songs and they are as much his as they are the others. I would agree that they were recorded with the original band with the exception of those songs from B$B and MOL in which only 4/5ths of the original band being involved in the writing and recording.

My point was that the original band members had no effect in rebuilding and maintaining his career. I'm sure that behind the scenes they offered friendship and support and in the case of NS his helping out with the Kane and Alice demos for Constrictor. It was Alice and Shep that rebuilt his career out of the ruins. Also, Kane Roberts deserves a lot of credit for helping get Alice back on track and for assembling the Nightmare Returns touring band. That touring band was a main reason that the comeback succeeded and a vital part of Alice history.

The were three bands that were vital to Alice's career. They are the orginal ACG, Dick Wagner and the WTMN touring band, and The Nightmare Returns touring band. I'm hoping as time goes on that the Nightmare Returns band gets the credit they deserve for Alice's comeback. It's well deserved.

[Maaki]

Zero effect? Try taking the ACG songs out of set list and the whole thing would collapse like a house of cards. Or would it.....

Take Trash out of history and Poison out of setlist..

Can you see how this goes both ways?

The same applies to "you don't know what kind of material" Ted Sallis wrote. Yes, we do not know. Some people seem to assume that it would be brilliant. History tells us that very few bands managed that. History also tells us that those bands adapted - as solo Alice did.

History also tells us that get together records are 99,9% crap.

It is true that we do not know. But let's not pretend it is not true when it is about what ifs regarding the original band. Let's not also pretend that bands getting back together are most of the time terrible let downs for people that have been waiting for it.