SickthingsUK

If Nita and Ryan were playing both the same parts... You'd have a point... but that's not the way it is

Pitkin, why do you say anything? You are just a forum troll who does little more than spout negative comments just to be heard and engaged. Until you go to a show to actually be able to defend your opinion on how the band sounds with three guitarists or how the band performs in any regard, anything you say about the band live is meaningless. By the way, there were three guitarists on the Bilion Dollar Babies tour was that too cluttered?

guttertrash wrote:Pitkin, why do you say anything? You are just a forum troll who does little more than spout negative comments just to be heard and engaged. Until you go to a show to actually be able to defend your opinion on how the band sounds with three guitarists or how the band performs in any regard, anything you say about the band live is meaningless. By the way, there were three guitarists on the Bilion Dollar Babies tour was that too cluttered?

I think you may want to ask that question on Bob's Shiny Dime Facebook page.

I know that he is more than a troll, but I find it irritating that somebody can be opinionated about something that they have not even experienced. I understand and have even agreed with him on things in the past, but I cannot understand why there is so much disdain for something when he doesn't even care enough to experience it. How can you draw a conclusion that something isn't worth your time or that the sound is cluttered if you haven't actually seen it to know what it sounds like? I can get behind people wanting two guitars and keys. That is a valid argument, but complaining about the sound of three guitars without experiencing them in person is just a contrarian statemement with no intent but to cause a stir. Three guitar lineups for bands are rather common here, and yes, some bands do not utilize it well and it can be cluttered, but Alice's band does it very well as do most of the three guitar bands that I know.

Some interesting points raised in this thread, but to blame the "casual" audience for "ruining" alice cooper is not right.
For a start, i adore brutal planet and welcome 2 my nightmare and both albums stand tall in the pantheon of great alice albums. So i dont think the casuals are ruining his album output (i think some of his recent albums have nearly been as bad as lace and whiskey - dirty diamonds especially - but i think that is more the collaborators at the time rather than the casual audience ruining the album)

in the live arena, again as many have mentioned the inclusion of covers was at first bizarre and has now (4+years later) stretched all boundaries of credibility. But i dont think its fair to blame "casual" fans - as Si very eloquently pointed out - they, in one form or other have come to see Alice cooper - NOT alice cooper performs covers!
I have spoken to many people who saw the raise the dead show and vowed not to go back until the cover songs had gone as whenever he played them the energy just dropped out of the band on stage and inside the crowd.
I am not sure why alice feels the need to do covers but it doesnt seem to be pleasing anyone that has actually seen the show.

The stage show has gradually declined since brutal planet/dragontown (with a brief uplift for the theatre of death shows) i have had many "casual" people who have seen him remark on how underwhelmed they were at the show (considering his reputation) so again this doesnt seem to be making the "casuals" happy.

Again as mentioned - Alice cooper is ruining Alice Cooper. remove the covers and include 3 or 4 more alice cooper songs - (preferably from his solo work, not the original group) revamp the show (or do stripped down shows in smaller venues) and start pushing your actual albums!!

Also the whole 3 guitar thing is a non issue. Tommy, tommy, tommy adds a good level of depth to the proceedings and not to mention does ALOT of the heavy lifting vocal wise these days. Not sure how you can get bothered by it, it sounds good and although missing some of the atmospheric touches (they add some backing tapes at like 2 or 3 bits in the show) it beefs up the sound and gives it more kick live. I think the first year they did it, it didn't sound that great but they have worked out better compositions these days.
(i would recommend you seeing them if it wasnt for the shocking setlist and covers! hahaha)

guttertrash wrote:Pitkin, why do you say anything? You are just a forum troll who does little more than spout negative comments just to be heard and engaged. Until you go to a show to actually be able to defend your opinion on how the band sounds with three guitarists or how the band performs in any regard, anything you say about the band live is meaningless. By the way, there were three guitarists on the Bilion Dollar Babies tour was that too cluttered?

Yes but one had his amp turned down as he didn't know the songs. Of course you know about Glen's illness and the reason for an additional guitarist so it's a stupid point you are making. If I am a troll why do you bother with your lame posts in response? How many threads have you started? Also quit crying. You do have the option to block my posts if they are too much for you to handle.

pitkin88 wrote:

guttertrash wrote:Pitkin, why do you say anything? You are just a forum troll who does little more than spout negative comments just to be heard and engaged. Until you go to a show to actually be able to defend your opinion on how the band sounds with three guitarists or how the band performs in any regard, anything you say about the band live is meaningless. By the way, there were three guitarists on the Bilion Dollar Babies tour was that too cluttered?

Yes but one had his amp turned down as he didn't know the songs.

That`s true to a degree, but wasn`t always the case. If I recall (I could be wrong) you can clearly hear all three guitars on the live material on the B$B deluxe album.

Does the inclusion of the covers add anything to the show for anyone?
And would the "casuals" enjoy the show any less without them?

To the first question, the answer WAS yes, it added something different and unexpected, even if we didn`t like it.

However now the answer is no. Now it's just repeating an idea that arguably never really worked in the first place let alone for the last four years. It perpetuates something the hardcore fans generally didn`t like or understand, and often it seems the "casuals" don`t get it either going from various comments.

So we are left with the only assumption they are in there because that is what Alice wants to do. That is a perfectly valid reason, but we don`t have to like it.

Si wrote:

pitkin88 wrote:

guttertrash wrote:Pitkin, why do you say anything? You are just a forum troll who does little more than spout negative comments just to be heard and engaged. Until you go to a show to actually be able to defend your opinion on how the band sounds with three guitarists or how the band performs in any regard, anything you say about the band live is meaningless. By the way, there were three guitarists on the Bilion Dollar Babies tour was that too cluttered?

Yes but one had his amp turned down as he didn't know the songs.

That`s true to a degree, but wasn`t always the case. If I recall (I could be wrong) you can clearly hear all three guitars on the live material on the B$B deluxe album.

There might have been some studio tinkering with that Si. Happens with a lot of live albums. In all likelyhood the biggest band on the planet could not take the chance on Glen for that tour. There would have been too much riding on it.

Saint&Sinner wrote: The stage show has gradually declined since brutal planet/dragontown (with a brief uplift for the theatre of death shows) i have had many "casual" people who have seen him remark on how underwhelmed they were at the show (considering his reputation) so again this doesnt seem to be making the "casuals" happy.

I'm going to offer a slightly dissenting opinion on the stage show, and this might be blasphemy for many of you guys who were around for some of the more extravagant stage shows (I've only seen Psychodrama, Theatre of Death, and NMMG tours): I'm ok with Alice stripping down the stage show. Certainly it is a big part of his character and what he does live, but the fact is, he's 68. Given how some of his contemporaries fared at such an age (Lemmy comes to mind), I don't mind him scaling back the theatrics a bit. For me, it's both the inclusion of the covers, and the lack of imagination in the setlist that make the current tour so frustrating. For me, the music always comes first, and the songs he's playing don't interest me too much after having seen him 6 times. This was my initial reason for skipping the Raise the Dead tour; I saw him 3 times on the NMMNG tour, and I think the only song he added later on in the tour was Hey Stoopid. In hindsight, I regret this because that tour had House of Fire and I think He's Back, which are two of my favourites.

The point that I'm getting at here is that it's somewhat excusable for him to tone it down a bit given the fact that Alice is getting up there, but it takes no more or less effort to pick obscure songs over cover songs.

pitkin88 wrote:

Si wrote:
That`s true to a degree, but wasn`t always the case. If I recall (I could be wrong) you can clearly hear all three guitars on the live material on the B$B deluxe album.

There might have been some studio tinkering with that Si. Happens with a lot of live albums.

That is possible yes. I don`t know. Yes, many classic live albums have tons of overdubs for all sorts of reasons.
However these were 30+ year old recordings. Some takes are from GTSYA,AC (and so could have been cleaned up for that at the time) but not all are from the film (different versions of songs from other recorded shows).
Is it likely that they would have gone back in all that time later to dub the previously unused songs just to get the three guitar effect?
As I say, I don't know the answer but it seems unlikely (but not impossible).

We also know that Glen had some good nights and some not so good nights. At the start of the tour I don`t think he was routinely turned down, and even if he was surely the recordings (for the film remember) recorded everything played on the stage, not just what was heard through the PA.

I'd like to say this in defense of Pitkin:

Every internet forum needs a Captain Hook!

He could have both three guitarists and keyboards.

Duane Hitchings played both on the Special Forces tour before he left, however I'm not sure if his replacement played both.

Paul Horowitz did it on both The Nightmare Returns and Live In The Flesh if I remember correctly.

In those years the use of synthesizers was prevalent in rock music. Most songs of the era featured them to some degree, thus I think they were there for that reason. They were the current trend.

Today, most of the stuff Alice performs live includes limited piano/keyboards which can be easily covered by backing tracks or samples.

The three guitar "attack" is also there for the visual of it all. Nothing screams hard rock more than three guitar players. Plus it does allow for versatility, a thicker sound and distinct styles and tone. Steve Hunter was brought back on board years ago just for that reason--his style and sound.

I think one of the reasons we are seeing Alice rehash the same old same old is that it takes time and effort--and MONEY---to bring to life a totally new stage show. As someone else said, Alice is approaching 70 years old and might just be comfortable going through the motions instead of investing 6 months or more into designing, preparing a rehearsing a whole new show.

That's fine--BUT--it's no excuse for giving us more cover songs!

mr.barlow wrote:I'd like to say this in defense of Pitkin:

Every internet forum needs a Captain Hook!

Shiver me timbers thankee lad.

guttertrash wrote:Pitkin, why do you say anything? You are just a forum troll who does little more than spout negative comments just to be heard and engaged.

so why do you, and others, pander to him? block him and ignore him.

Do we have to go through this negativity constantly on here? It's so very simple, if you don't like the covers or the show or whatever.... just don't go to the gig. Vote with your feet.

What good does it achieve to just whine and bitch on here every day? It's so boring.

Personally, I don't care for HV or the covers in the set, but that's just me. I'm sure there are lots of people who enjoy it. If Alice wants to do it then that's up to him, I just won't pay to see it.

While Heaven Wept wrote:Do we have to go through this negativity constantly on here? It's so very simple, if you don't like the covers or the show or whatever.... just don't go to the gig. Vote with your feet.

What good does it achieve to just whine and bitch on here every day? It's so boring.

Personally, I don't care for HV or the covers in the set, but that's just me. I'm sure there are lots of people who enjoy it. If Alice wants to do it then that's up to him, I just won't pay to see it.

I think the reason there is so much talk about is that people feel strongly about it. They don`t really get it, especially with the Vampires doing the same thing now.
It also gives feedback to the people who decide these things which, whether they make any changes or not, I think is valuable.

It also shows even the most staunch Alice defenders don`t simply support anything Alice does just because it's Alice. If they don`t like it, they say so.

While Heaven Wept wrote:Do we have to go through this negativity constantly on here? It's so very simple, if you don't like the covers or the show or whatever.... just don't go to the gig. Vote with your feet.

What good does it achieve to just whine and bitch on here every day? It's so boring.

Personally, I don't care for HV or the covers in the set, but that's just me. I'm sure there are lots of people who enjoy it. If Alice wants to do it then that's up to him, I just won't pay to see it.

This is the crux of the matter, who actually enjoys it? Very, very few appears to be the answer, so the continued inclusion of covers makes no sense.

jram wrote:

pitkin88 wrote:Please list all the great bands with three guitarists so I can compare them to those with two or even one.

Iron Maiden, live and in the studio since 2000.

The E Street Band.

The Tuesday night Mariachi Band at my local Mexican Restaurant.