Is The Casual Fan Ruining Alice Cooper?

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Is The Casual Fan Ruining Alice Cooper?

Post by pitkin88 » Sun May 01, 2016 1:13 am

With almost everyone here crying in their beer about the set list ( there should be some major griping about how tired the rehash of the stage act is too. Remember how important that was at one time? ) it has to be asked " Is The Casual Fan Ruining Alice Cooper "?

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Re: Is The Casual Fan Ruining Alice Cooper?

Post by Nick » Sun May 01, 2016 1:45 am

No, the casuals are keeping the whole train rolling.
What is hurting the show right now is the notion that you have to try to "appeal" to them in a way that pretty much undermines the faith of the hardcore audience. Alice Cooper having a permanent covers section in his show (and I honestly worry it will be) at the expense of his own considerable material is just plain bizarre.
Last edited by Nick on Sun May 01, 2016 1:49 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Is The Casual Fan Ruining Alice Cooper?

Post by mr.barlow » Sun May 01, 2016 1:46 am

I thought that since he was touring with the HV that the cover songs would finally be left out of his live show. I guess I was wrong.

I was correct in believing that this tour would be extra heavy on the original band material as I'm sure something is going to happen with the original members during this tour.

This set list plays it too safe. Also, the inclusion of nonsense cover songs at the expense of great Alice material is beyond ridiculous. I would think that Alice fans --even casual ones--would prefer hearing Welcome To My Nightmare, Go To Hell or even House Of Fire instead of covers of Pinball Wizard and Fire! Alice has taken this cover song schtick a bit too far in my opinion. Especially since he is touring with the HV in which he could cover all of the tired classic rock he wants.

I'm sure Alice knows of the devotion of his life long fans. There are some on this board who have been there since 1968 and have been with him through all of the ups and downs. There are those of us who supported him during--and who revere--his "lost" period of 1980-1983. Then there are those who found him with TLT or Brutal Planet. What do we get in the set list?? Pinball Wizard!!?? Love Me Two Times?! What utter bullsh*t!

Hey Alice--how about throwing a few our way once in a while. Is it too much to ask??

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Re: Is The Casual Fan Ruining Alice Cooper?

Post by Somwhere In Auckland » Sun May 01, 2016 1:54 am

The set and stage show this tour looks quite boring and bland. Once a time you went to see an Alice show for a SHOW full of theatrics and shock rock. Now it's stripped right down and the sets are getting worse each tour. The covers section 2 tours in a row while ignoring so many rare classics is beyond a joke. Never thought I would say this current tour is one I won't be upset missing this year, but that's the feeling I have.

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Re: Is The Casual Fan Ruining Alice Cooper?

Post by nurserozetta » Sun May 01, 2016 4:12 am

Agreed , the casual fans are what keeps Alice touring but geeze like the others I'm getting tired of virtually the same setlist show after show . I have no problems with the Bowie cover and hell Id be happy if he threw in a few lines from a Prince song too , but this whole set is just getting repetitious , Pinball Wizard ??? WTF is that about ?
Living in Australia I've only seen Alice a dozen times live but if he was to come with this tour or setlist I'd be saving my money.

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Re: Is The Casual Fan Ruining Alice Cooper?

Post by pitkin88 » Sun May 01, 2016 7:50 am

Nick wrote:No, the casuals are keeping the whole train rolling.
What is hurting the show right now is the notion that you have to try to "appeal" to them in a way that pretty much undermines the faith of the hardcore audience. Alice Cooper having a permanent covers section in his show (and I honestly worry it will be) at the expense of his own considerable material is just plain bizarre.

That's a very good point. If he has to play the hits, as some here believe, why does he have to play the hits of others? What is a casual fan anyway? Is it someone who just goes to one show here and there? I'd say if they go to one show a year they are not a casual fan. They might not buy the recent albums to that is not where the money is to be made.

I'd say this playing to the casual fan has pretty much put a nail in his coffin creatively. It all seems about the money. The meet and fleece, the stupid teddy bears. What " Master " of horror hawks cuddly toys? The stage show and the choice of songs shows just how little thought is put in to an Alice Cooper show these days. Is it time to put out the character to pasture on the golf course rather than drag it through a painful death?

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Re: Is The Casual Fan Ruining Alice Cooper?

Post by Toronto Bob » Sun May 01, 2016 7:57 am

I think that may be the wrong question. Casual fans haven't ruined anything, cynical attitudes towards longtime loyal fans on the other hand, may be ruinous. Having terrible unofficial spokespeople doesn't help matters either.

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Re: Is The Casual Fan Ruining Alice Cooper?

Post by Si » Sun May 01, 2016 11:25 am

pitkin88 wrote: That's a very good point. If he has to play the hits, as some here believe, why does he have to play the hits of others? What is a casual fan anyway?
That is a reasonable question but there isn`t really a solid answer. But I think when we use the term we are referring to a couple or groups of people which between then take up a sizable percentage of the audience. What that percentage is could be argued forever.

Firstly you have the "oh look, Alice Cooper is playing tonight, lets go check it out' crowd. They know the name and some of what that entails (theatrics, snake etc) but don`t have any albums and possibly aren`t really music fans in the "follow music news/regularly buy music" way. They have just heard it's a good show so go to check it out. Next week they could be at a pop show, football match or down a club. Music isn`t a big thing in their life and they go because it's an event to go to that sounds like fun.

Next you have the "guests". All the people who know little to nothing about Alice beyond what their boyfriend/girlfriend/colleague etc has told them. They are the people you take to a show so you aren`t going on your own, and only really know what they have heard on the radio on in their "hosts" car. For example in the past I have taken friends to shows who have zero knowledge of Alice beyond the basics, or have juts heard I was going and said "that sounds fun, I'll come too'. I think there are a fair few of those in any given audience. We hear often on these forums how fans have taken a newbie to the show in the hope of converting them. More often then not I think these people enjoy the night out but the conversion rate to a big fan probably isn`t high.

Lastly you have the people who just like rock music in general, but that Alice may not be high on their list of favorites for what ever reason. You have the metalheads and the classic rock fans who may worship another artist but still like rock in general, and as Alice is in town they check him out maybe once every few years. We are ALL in this group when it comes to other artists.
When I was younger I would see any rock band that came through town (and being London that was a LOT). I enjoyed going to rock shows in general so went to see bands that I had never heard before just to see if they were any good. I owned nothing by these bands and was basically "checking them out". I used to do this sometimes multiple times a week and sometimes I saw a great band at the beginning of their career (GnR, Metallica etc), sometimes bands that didn`t do much for me but are still grinding away today (Styper, Manowar), and other times bands that you never saw again, plus of course bands I was a big fan of but maybe didn`t follow day to day happenings.
So really we are all casual fans of many other bands and this group is really the majority of the audience. The hardcore buy anything collectors are in the minority at any show.

I think the problem any artist has is balancing between all these audiences plus what they personally want to play. A perfect mix is very hard to get and it's extremely hard to please the hardcore fans without alienating a large percentage of the audience in one way or another. Hardcore would love a set full of really obscure songs, but most times that just won`t work.

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Re: Is The Casual Fan Ruining Alice Cooper?

Post by Robbie » Sun May 01, 2016 4:55 pm

After going to see the Raise the Dead show in Wolverhampton I was so disappointed I started a post basically asking whether the "Theatre of Death" tour would be seen as Alice's last great tour (it was the thread Shep responded to). Reading the setlist and seeing the cover songs once again my thread title looks like a rhetorical question. Sadly, Alice has been treading water for the last few years-something he could not have been accused of before. I for one will not go again until the cover songs are dropped from Alice Cooper shows. After all, if I want to see cover songs I will go and watch one of the dozens of cover bands who play songs like "Suffragette City" and "Pinball Wizard" in my local pub where I don't have to pay any admission fee.And to answer Pitkin's question "Is the casual fan ruining Alice Cooper?" the answer is NO -ALICE COOPER IS RUINING ALICE COOPER by his bizarre obsession with playing covers songs; not producing a fresh theatrical stage show with new props (or even the old ones used in different ways); having three guitarists instead of the more traditional two and a keyboard player which used to add texture to the sound and finally by not having a blend of all the classics with some rarer songs which would ensure the more casual fan enjoyed hearing familiar material and more long term fans hearing some rarely played songs too. Rant over!

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Re: Is The Casual Fan Ruining Alice Cooper?

Post by guttertrash » Sun May 01, 2016 7:14 pm

I agree on most of your points, Robbie, accept the three guitar line-up. I don't think that in any way ruins anything. They could tour with a keyboard player still, but the songs and the way they have them arranged (such as the truncated WTMN in the RTD show) really do not suffer from the lack of a live keyboard player. There are some keys tracked into the show at times, but you can get away with tracks on most of the songs. There is no need for a live player noodling on keys in any of the songs, and I love the depth of three guitars over two. I think he will go back to live keys if he decides to add songs back into the show that needs that texture added too it.

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Re: Is The Casual Fan Ruining Alice Cooper?

Post by pitkin88 » Sun May 01, 2016 7:54 pm

I think the three guitars is pointless. The songs might avtually benefit from less clutter. The piss poor rehash stage show is as bothering to me as the song selection. So much more could be done and without considerable cost. The wow factor has completely disappeared.

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Re: Is The Casual Fan Ruining Alice Cooper?

Post by Robbie » Sun May 01, 2016 8:27 pm

Fair points re:keyboard player Guttertrash in terms of the arrangements and I assume keyboards are pre-recorded or sequenced in some parts of the show, but I see the three guitar player thing as part of Alice's desire to be part of some kind of pub band par excellence (are they called bar bands in the USA?).Until recently,Alice concerts had great music along with a theatrical spectacle -what Pitkin refers to as a wow factor which is as good a way of putting it as any-which was always what drew me to an Alice show.To emphasize my point, even the relatively stripped back Special Forces stage set was more visually interesting than the recent ones let alone the stage sets for Nightmare Returns and the hydraulics used on Raise your Fist and Yell. Oh how the mighty have fallen!

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Re: Is The Casual Fan Ruining Alice Cooper?

Post by guttertrash » Sun May 01, 2016 8:38 pm

pitkin88 wrote:I think the three guitars is pointless. The songs might avtually benefit from less clutter. The piss poor rehash stage show is as bothering to me as the song selection. So much more could be done and without considerable cost. The wow factor has completely disappeared.

How the - do you know if three guitars is too cluttering at the shows? Many bands have guitar tracks without actually using a hired gun, do they sound too cluttered also? You should probably just stop listening to music in general, since most bands record WAY more than two guitar tracks to their albums, because they have to sound like a cluttered, meaningless mess.

Many shows you see have pre-recorded tracks for guitar, vocal, and keys. I have a friend who tour manages with a band that has one guitar player, but they have tracks for up to 4 guitar parts on some songs. It's absurd, but people have no idea that it's pre-recorded tracks, because they want the show to sound like the album as much as possible. Many bands do this, and most do it without anybody questioning how it was done.

Alice brings a rock n' roll show to you though. It isn't a ton of trickery except for a few minute things tracked. I agree that the "wow" factor as far as theatrics is gone, but Motley Crue and Marilyn Manson and everybody else has very little theatrical shit in their shows. most bands just stand around and play music. I don't see anybody putting on a show these days. Just a bunch of idiots standing around playing instruments or singing, so it is pretty awesome that Alice doesn't just go out and sing the songs like any other musician.
Last edited by guttertrash on Sun May 01, 2016 8:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Is The Casual Fan Ruining Alice Cooper?

Post by pitkin88 » Sun May 01, 2016 8:50 pm

guttertrash wrote:
pitkin88 wrote:I think the three guitars is pointless. The songs might avtually benefit from less clutter. The piss poor rehash stage show is as bothering to me as the song selection. So much more could be done and without considerable cost. The wow factor has completely disappeared.

How the **** do you know if three guitars is too cluttering at the shows? Many bands have guitar tracks without actually using a hired gun, do they sound too cluttered also? You should probably just stop listening to music in general, since most bands record WAY more than two guitar tracks to their albums, because they have to sound like a cluttered, meaningless mess.

Many shows you see have pre-recorded tracks for guitar, vocal, and keys. I have a friend who tour manages with a band that has one guitar player, but they have tracks for up to 4 guitar parts on some songs. It's absurd, but people have no idea that it's pre-recorded tracks, because they want the show to sound like the album.
How the expletive do you know it's not? It's called an opinion you dope. Im general most bands don't need three guitarists on stage. :clap:

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Re: Is The Casual Fan Ruining Alice Cooper?

Post by pitkin88 » Sun May 01, 2016 8:51 pm

Let’s play I’m A Boy

(No, no more covers man)

Then Jimi Hendrix’s Fire?

Another Brick In The Wall?

Just for the casual fan

(No Alice we’re plugging our ears now)

Isn’t that the golf course calling?

Alice Alice

Alice they moan.

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Re: Is The Casual Fan Ruining Alice Cooper?

Post by guttertrash » Sun May 01, 2016 8:54 pm

Have you been to a show since they added a third guitar?

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Re: Is The Casual Fan Ruining Alice Cooper?

Post by guttertrash » Sun May 01, 2016 8:57 pm

pitkin88 wrote:
guttertrash wrote:
pitkin88 wrote:I think the three guitars is pointless. The songs might avtually benefit from less clutter. The piss poor rehash stage show is as bothering to me as the song selection. So much more could be done and without considerable cost. The wow factor has completely disappeared.

How the **** do you know if three guitars is too cluttering at the shows? Many bands have guitar tracks without actually using a hired gun, do they sound too cluttered also? You should probably just stop listening to music in general, since most bands record WAY more than two guitar tracks to their albums, because they have to sound like a cluttered, meaningless mess.

Many shows you see have pre-recorded tracks for guitar, vocal, and keys. I have a friend who tour manages with a band that has one guitar player, but they have tracks for up to 4 guitar parts on some songs. It's absurd, but people have no idea that it's pre-recorded tracks, because they want the show to sound like the album.
How the expletive do you know it's not? It's called an opinion you dope. Im general most bands don't need three guitarists on stage. :clap:
Most bands just need three backing tracks instead...

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Re: Is The Casual Fan Ruining Alice Cooper?

Post by pitkin88 » Sun May 01, 2016 9:01 pm

guttertrash wrote:Have you been to a show since they added a third guitar?

Does not going to a show mean I can't have opinion? Please list all the great bands with three guitarists so I can compare them to those with two or even one.

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Re: Is The Casual Fan Ruining Alice Cooper?

Post by guttertrash » Sun May 01, 2016 9:06 pm

You can't really make an opinion about something that you haven't seen or heard in this case. Do all the albums you listen too sound cluttered, because that one or two guitar band definitely has more than one or two guitar tracks on their albums. Do you believe that just because there are only one or two guitarists on stage that they are playing every note coming from that stage? Yes, there are bands that do not use backing tracks, but you are mistaken if you think that what you see is all coming from just the musicians on the stage in most cases.

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Re: Is The Casual Fan Ruining Alice Cooper?

Post by guttertrash » Sun May 01, 2016 9:08 pm

You can't really make an opinion about something that you haven't seen or heard in this case. Do all the albums you listen too sound cluttered? Because that one or two guitar band definitely has more than one or two guitar tracks on their albums. Do you believe that just because there are only one or two guitarists on stage that they are playing every note coming from that stage? Yes, there are bands that do not use backing tracks, but you are mistaken if you think that what you see is all coming from just the musicians on the stage in most cases.

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