Bob Ezrin - Still worthy?

[A_MichaelUK]

From darkmenace:
"I think some of the non-rock songs on the album are very good,"

Again, another contradiction. I don't want you to think I'm picking on you because I'm not but I've noticed a certain lack of rigour over the last few weeks in a lot of posts in different threads, to the point where I'm starting to wonder if some people actually understand what their point is and if they do, if they actually believe it.

[recoop]

If we are discussing ACGTH, sales expectations would have changed when it was decided not to tour the album (ill health I believe). I think the idea ( if I remember correctly) of having a double level stage with Alice descending into Hell would have resulted in a great show. In addition, such a show and tour would have surely supported sales of the album.

We do not know how Welcome would have fared without the large tour that supported it in 1975. Alice may have been relieved by the final sales figures for ACGTH considering his state of health and the lack of a tour to support the album.

I was aware that some of L and W came from ACGTH sessions (previous correspondance with you Andy) and I would have loved It's Hot Tonight to have been on ACGTH. Presuming this was one of the left over tracks from ACGTH sessions, what were the others again?

[Si]

From Mr.Bluelegs:
"My point about "Face Off" is that the song had such a great Stones vibe and hook to it that the macabre humor & title diminished the song ( for me)."

I think that looking at something like a title in such an unneccesarily microscopic degree of detail and allowing that to take something away from your enjoyment is really is not worth the effort. If anyone else (never mind Alice Cooper), had released a song called "I'll Bite Your Face Off", I would definitely want to hear it.

For what it's worth I also think it's a dreadful title for a cool song.
Maybe it's partially that it's an American term, and doesn`t translate that well elsewhere?
To me it sounds like a werewolf/horror thing, not just a generally used turn of phrase. In fact I had never thought of the title in those terms at all.

[Babysquid]

What I meant is that I think with GTH and L&W, Ezrin's role diminished more and more. Yes musically, GTH sounds amazing, but there is more to production than engineering and overseeing the recordings. I think he did a great job with that end and even with helping with album arrangements. I do not think he took the time or pushed Alice hard enough to make a great album, and coaching being hands-on with the artist and the album's direction is important parts of being a producer also.

I think GTH is a good album. I just don't think it is as focused as WTMN, and I don't think it had to be. I think they realized it would not be as big as WTMN no matter what they did, so Alice pursued a less rock direction that could possibly spawn another hit and maybe draw in a different crowd. They played it safe enough by keeping the Steven concept and theme in tact to sell it to his rock fans though. I think everybody saw it as a time to take chances, and Ezrin wasn't as iron-fist as he had been in the past and knew that he could focus on his other profjects. Just my opinion.

Lace & Whiskey to me comes off like Ezrin did little more than engineer the album.

I cannot agree with this. If anything Bob Ezrin's role seems to have increased. Both GTH and L&W are well overproduced and suffer for it. If anything I'd imagine it was Alice taking a back seat. And how can someone "play it safe" and "take chances"?
If anything this lp needed to be a hit to capitalize on the success of WTMN. You're only as good as your last record in the music biz.

[A_MichaelUK]

From recoop:
"Presuming this was one of the left over tracks from ACGTH sessions, what were the others again?"

I don't know for sure.

[A_MichaelUK]

From Si:
"To me it sounds like a werewolf/horror thing,"

Yes (a vampire, actually).

>not just a generally used turn of phrase.

I think over here it would be "bite your head off."

[recoop]

From recoop:
"Presuming this was one of the left over tracks from ACGTH sessions, what were the others again?"

I don't know for sure.

Thanks anyway- would you think "It's hot tonight" was a good bet to have been a leftover?

[Si]

From Si:
"To me it sounds like a werewolf/horror thing,"

Yes (a vampire, actually).

>not just a generally used turn of phrase.

I think over here it would be "bite your head off."

Right. Which sounds a little better to me, as it makes sense. Never knew about the US phrase. It was just a bad title haha

[guttertrash]

What I meant is that I think with GTH and L&W, Ezrin's role diminished more and more. Yes musically, GTH sounds amazing, but there is more to production than engineering and overseeing the recordings. I think he did a great job with that end and even with helping with album arrangements. I do not think he took the time or pushed Alice hard enough to make a great album, and coaching being hands-on with the artist and the album's direction is important parts of being a producer also.

I think GTH is a good album. I just don't think it is as focused as WTMN, and I don't think it had to be. I think they realized it would not be as big as WTMN no matter what they did, so Alice pursued a less rock direction that could possibly spawn another hit and maybe draw in a different crowd. They played it safe enough by keeping the Steven concept and theme in tact to sell it to his rock fans though. I think everybody saw it as a time to take chances, and Ezrin wasn't as iron-fist as he had been in the past and knew that he could focus on his other profjects. Just my opinion.

Lace & Whiskey to me comes off like Ezrin did little more than engineer the album.

I cannot agree with this. If anything Bob Ezrin's role seems to have increased. Both GTH and L&W are well overproduced and suffer for it. If anything I'd imagine it was Alice taking a back seat. And how can someone "play it safe" and "take chances"?
If anything this lp needed to be a hit to capitalize on the success of WTMN. You're only as good as your last record in the music biz.

Goes to Hell has very little that sounds like what Alice had done before. The rock songs don't even fall into what most people expected from Alice, so yes, they did take a chance on this album. All the while, they did play it safe by continuing the Steven concept. It gave them the chance to try new things and take a more pop approach and start a new direction that lasted until FTI, but by promoting it as a follow-up to WTMN, they could still hopefully push it to the people who bought WTMN and coax them into the new direction.

I still do not buy into the idea that these albums were "overproduced." As far as for a rock audience, yes, there is definitely a bigger, more glossed over approach, but these albums found Alice stretching into a more pop-oriented realm which benefits from that production. Sure, there were some rock songs, but these albums were trying to cross over to a larger audience that a rock n' roll album and typical rock production could not have done. Just because there is a bigger, glossier sound, it does not mean Ezrin put more time or focus into the overall production.

[Mr.Bluelegs]

From Mr.Bluelegs:
"My point about "Face Off" is that the song had such a great Stones vibe and hook to it that the macabre humor & title diminished the song ( for me)."

I think that looking at something like a title in such an unneccesarily microscopic degree of detail and allowing that to take something away from your enjoyment is really is not worth the effort. If anyone else (never mind Alice Cooper), had released a song called "I'll Bite Your Face Off", I would definitely want to hear it.

For what it's worth I also think it's a dreadful title for a cool song.
Maybe it's partially that it's an American term, and doesn`t translate that well elsewhere?
To me it sounds like a werewolf/horror thing, not just a generally used turn of phrase. In fact I had never thought of the title in those terms at all.

Being here in America, I think the phrase is actually "I'll rip your face off" which basically means the same thing. That's the old saying I'm used to. Not that all this really matters one way or another!

[guttertrash]

From guttertrsh:
"What I meant is that I think with GTH and L&W, Ezrin's role diminished more and more."

"Seriously and for better or worse, the evidence suggests that is a totally false statement. In fact, given the way "Lace And Whiskey" turned out, a lot of people would have hoped that what you was true, but I don't think it was."

I did make it known that this is an opinion by implying that "I think..."

"that end and even with helping with album arrangements. I do not think he took the time or pushed Alice hard enough to make a great album,

"Maybe Alice didn't want to be, or was not capable of being, "pushed"? As has been already mentioned I think, all the main participants in those albums (and for some reason, nobody has mentioned Dick Wagner) were, to the say least, impaired. If you go through each song on the album, Ezrin had a writing credit on almost all of them (I think), so I'm not sure what more you were expecting him to do."

You are correct. Ezrin did have a writing credit for pretty much every song, and I agree maybe they were all impaired, but we do not know how much input Ezrin put into each song even though he did have a writing credit. You are also correct that maybe Bob was not capable of pushing/coaching Alice or maybe Alice refused to be pushed or maybe he was too impaired to be. Yet again, we are dealing with egos and impairment, but nonetheless, I see Alice as the driving force behind the albums, and Ezrin giving minor input, but not being the force that he had been for WTMN nor the ACG albums. Yet again, this is my opinion. But if you look at GTH, W&L, and FTI, the themes changed, but Alice's musical approach was still more pop and ballad-oriented even without Ezrin on FTI.


> I think they realized it would not be as big as WTMN no matter what they did, so Alice pursued a less rock direction that could possibly spawn another hit and maybe draw in a different crowd.

"What is your evidence for that? Given that "Alice Cooper Goes To Hell" follows the same basic formula as "Welcome To My Nightmare" albeit with some added elements and that all the main participants are the same, the expectation would have been that it would do as well."

I do not see these two albums being the same formula except for carrying on a theme based around the Steven character. Musically, it moved away from a rock n' roll dominant approach to a pop-oriented approach to album making. Yes, there are rock songs to not completely stray from his past, but the overall feel was not that of a rock n' roll album anymore, instead we find a bigger, glossier production to accentuate the ballads and poppier pieces to crossover to a larger audience.

>Lace & Whiskey to me comes off like Ezrin did little more than engineer the album.

"Well, what you don't know is that quite a few of the songs on that album were left over from the sessions for "Alice Cooper Goes To Hell" and just like that album, Ezrin contributed to the composing of those songs as well."

Yes, I do know that quite a few of those songs were left over from Goes To Hell, but yet again, my opinion is that Ezrin's input had minimized. Minimal input on a song still gains you credit, so we can only wonder if he put in the same amount of input or had the same amount of influence on songs as he had on prior co-writes or not? I'm not saying I'm right, but I feel like Alice wanted to try to crossover to a larger audience, and Bob's input became less influential.

[mr.barlow]

From Mr.Bluelegs:
"My point about "Face Off" is that the song had such a great Stones vibe and hook to it that the macabre humor & title diminished the song ( for me)."

I think that looking at something like a title in such an unneccesarily microscopic degree of detail and allowing that to take something away from your enjoyment is really is not worth the effort. If anyone else (never mind Alice Cooper), had released a song called "I'll Bite Your Face Off", I would definitely want to hear it.

For what it's worth I also think it's a dreadful title for a cool song.
Maybe it's partially that it's an American term, and doesn`t translate that well elsewhere?
To me it sounds like a werewolf/horror thing, not just a generally used turn of phrase. In fact I had never thought of the title in those terms at all.

Being here in America, I think the phrase is actually "I'll rip your face off" which basically means the same thing. That's the old saying I'm used to. Not that all this really matters one way or another!

Ive been in the USA my whole life and have both heard and used the phrase "bite your face off" quite a bit over the years. As soon as I saw the title and heard the song I knew that Alice was playing off that phrase.

There are many variations such as "bite your head off", "rip your head off", "rip your face off", "take your head off" and so on. It comes down to where you live in the USA as a lot of slang words and phrases are regional and sometimes even local. I'm sure this is the same in countries around the world. I live near New York City and Philadelphia it is common in use in our area.

At any rate--another varation is "she'll bite your dick off". Maybe Alice should have used that as the title.

[mr.barlow]

From recoop:
"Presuming this was one of the left over tracks from ACGTH sessions, what were the others again?"

I don't know for sure.

Dick Wagner, in his book states that "Road Rats" was written for the crew of the WTMN tour which leads me to believe it was intended for Goes To Hell.

Also in the book he mentions writing "You & Me" for L&W and how it grew out of the original version of "No More Love At Your Convenience".

I once heard years ago (I can't remember from who--was it you Andy?) that the original album title was "King Of The Silver Screen" as they were trying to build around that theme since it was being incorporated into the upcoming tour.

I think the creativity and songwriting suffered due to the various substance abuse problems that everybody was dealing with. Alice, Ezrin, Wagner were all in various states of disrepair. This is likely why they used the ACGTH leftovers, Ubangi Stomp and what seem to be some inferior songs. I'm sure the overall production also suffered as they were running out of time and had to meet WB contractual release date.

This same problem happened with Special Forces as a good portion of that album are leftovers from FTF.

[pitkin88]

ACGTH suffers from a lack of balls as well as some very poor songs. You have a solid opener followed by two of the worst songs in his cannon. It hasn't aged well either. Just like MOL was a let down after BDB's this was a toothless follow up to WTMN.

[A_MichaelUK]

From guttercrash:
"Just because there is a bigger, glossier sound, it does not mean Ezrin put more time or focus into the overall production."

You have no way of knowing either way though. In fact, the evidence would suggest otherwise (both the evidence of your own ears and the number of people involved in the making of the album as opposed to, say, the number of people involved in the making of "Love It To Death" for example).

[A_MichaelUK]

From guttercrash:
"I see Alice as the driving force behind the albums, and Ezrin giving minor input,"

I can only tell you that you're totally wrong. Those albums were collaborations between Alice, Ezrin and Dick Wagner with the latter two all but taking over the latter album due to Alice's incapacity (not that the other two were much better).

I do not see these two albums being the same formula except for carrying on a theme based around the Steven character.

Really? Rock, ballads, Broadway, jazz with some doo - wop and disco thrown in as well, so not really that different.

> instead we find a bigger, glossier production to accentuate the ballads and poppier pieces to crossover to a larger audience.

That doesn't really make it especially different though. It isn't like you're comparing "Love It To Death" to "Brutal Planet" or something.

>Lace & Whiskey to me comes off like Ezrin did little more than engineer the album.

"Well, what you don't know is that quite a few of the songs on that album were left over from the sessions for "Alice Cooper Goes To Hell" and just like that album, Ezrin contributed to the composing of those songs as well."

>I'm not saying I'm right, but I feel like Alice wanted to try to crossover to a larger audience, and Bob's input became less influential.

This is really funny. In all the years (decades, actually) that I've been reading about Alice Cooper, this is the first time anyone is of the opinion that Ezrin had become "less influential" when in fact the accusation that's often made is the opposite. Even Alice (and he would know) made this point when he was discussing the "Hey Stoopid" album.

[A_MichaelUK]

From recoop:
"Thanks anyway- would you think "It's hot tonight" was a good bet to have been a leftover?"

I don't know.

[A_MichaelUK]

From mr.barlow:
"I once heard years ago (I can't remember from who--was it you Andy?) that the original album title was "King Of The Silver Screen" as they were trying to build around that theme since it was being incorporated into the upcoming tour."

I don't remember, but it sounds plausible.

>This same problem happened with Special Forces as a good portion of that album are leftovers from FTF.

Some of the songs were but I'm not sure about the actual recordings.

[mr.barlow]

ACGTH suffers from a lack of balls as well as some very poor songs. You have a solid opener followed by two of the worst songs in his cannon. It hasn't aged well either. Just like MOL was a let down after BDB's this was a toothless follow up to WTMN.

At the time Alice was trying to move away from the all rock formula. The album turned out the way they wanted it---for better or worse. They all took for granted that the fans would grow with Alice and accept that he was trying to move forward as an artist and try new things. We all know how that worked out.

I think the album has aged just fine. Also, "I'm The Coolest" is one of my favorite Alice songs. ACGTH is one of my favorite Alice albums--namely for the overrall sound and feel of the album.

I will say that the weakest track is "You Gotta Dance" and what makes it worse was having it follow the classic "Go To Hell". I think right there is where it lost a lot of fans--probably pissed them off--upon the first listen. If that song appeared elsewhere on the album--or better yet--never made it on the album--it would have made it much better.


I think ACGTH would have been a classic had "Go To Hell" have been followed by "It's Hot Tonight". Also, to have "Road Rats' open side two and exclude "Im Always Chasing Rainbows".

I think that the "I'm Always Chasing Rainbows" idea would have fit perfectly with the "King Of The Silver Screen" theme which they were developing for the next album (ended up being L&W) and tour.

Somewhere there is an interview with Alice regarding the upcoming "King Of The Silver Screen" tour where he name drops all sorts of Hollywood legends that were kings and queens of the silver screen and slips in the name Maurice Escargot. I often wonder if the Escargot character started out as being a movie star rather than a private investigator.

Also I'm pretty sure that "Give The Kid A Break" was written mainly for the stage show of the aborted GTH tour. It was going to be a main number and set piece in the stage show. It's a very theatrical piece both musically and lyrically and I think it was going to be one of the pivitol moments of the show.

[Mr.Bluelegs]

I always liked "I'm the Coolest", too. Remember that Henry Winkler ( Fonzie) was approached to appear on the song but declined. Winkler didn't want to be "typecast" so he turned Alice down. Met the guy once in the '70's (around the time of the album) and he was, pretty much, an egotistical jerk. Glad the song wasn't cheapened by his appearance.