Was Trash A Fluke?

[KeithGale]

I had a record shop during the time Trash came out in the UK, I was a chart return shop and this meant the sales of product through my shop helped make up the charts.
When the single Poison was released, it was treated as a priority release, the Reps from Epic had to push the record as hard as they could, this meant I would get pre priced stock of the single for free, my job was to encourage sales (there were many ways this could be achieved), the main one was to scan the bar code, this would count as a sale, even if I hadn't physically sold a copy, I was allowed to give the single away if I so wished.
The aim was to get the single in the top 40, once in, it would if the public liked it sell (and they did) , if the midweek chart position was positive the Reps would then start pushing the various formats, this would ensure the position would remain in the top 40.
Luckily for Poison, it sold well without that much of push once it charted, though that did not stop Epic pushing various single variations!!
Because Poison did so well, it meant the pre-sell for the album was easier, as most record shops pre-ordered plenty of stock!!!
I remember that Hey Stoopid (single and album) were pushed heavily, The Last Temptation did not gain the same attention, but was still given a reasonable amount of attention from Epic, but the rock scene had changed!!

[darkmenace]

There's a lot I don't like about Trash but many of the songs are catchy. If I just feel like rocking I'll listen to SITD, HOF, or BON. One of my favorite guilty pleasures is the ballad HILWYL.

I also like that he went without makeup for a change. This helped him appeal to casual fans who (many of which) had never heard of him before.

[Saint&Sinner]

I think allot of things helped make it a success.

The obvious is Desmond child who had a hand in allot of great albums, from ratt to bon jovi.
The production was top notch and although songs like poison had darker themes than for instance just a classic love song it still sounded clean and fresh.
The melodies and guitar lines were all top notch throughout the album with some very memorable tracks outside of poison (bed of nails, spark in the dark, house of fire, hell is living without you etc)

The cover for the album (and to a less degree poison single) was fantastic, alice looked his absolute best here, he manages to come across as sinister, sexy, dark, powerful all from the one photo. This is definitely my fave Alice album cover by far (i know you will all disagree but there you have it)

The video for poison (the censored version is far better) is fantastic, again, like the album cover it is dark, sinister, sexy, powerful etc. It looked great and sounded better. It is one of the best singles out there.
when i still frequented heavy metal clubs a couple of years ago Poison was the one song that would get all sides on the dance floor, (goths, emo, heavy metal fans, thrash metal fans, hair metal fans, extreme metal fans even! the list goes on)

This also helped get allot of the next generation into alice (as is evidenced by the HUGE reception poison gets every night) ie marilyn manson fans, then my chemical romance fans after that.

Its not his best album, we know that. But its great fun and always makes me happy whenever i listen to it.

[cooperrocks]

I am repeating and stating the obvious here, but people have to also remember that record labels still meant something back then. Epic made this album a priority within their label. That means investing a lot of money to promote the album. That really wasn't done with Constrictor or Raise Your Fist on Yell. In fact, both of those albums did fairly well considering the lack of promotion plus they were the highest charting albums Alice had in a while doing considerably better than the early 80's albums.

In addition, MTV was essential to an artist success. If you could get a lot of airplay on MTV, it almost always guaranteed a hit and radio would usually follow suit and play the song a lot as well. Hey Stoopid was the better album, but radio didn't show that album the same love. "Love's a Loaded Gun" was a really cool video in my opinion, but it didn't get much airplay either.

The bottom is back then if you got a lot of radio and MTV airplay, you had a hit. If you didn't, the masses (Especially teenagers) weren't going to buy your album.

[darkmenace]

In fact, both of those albums did fairly well considering the lack of promotion plus they were the highest charting albums Alice had in a while doing considerably better than the early 80's albums.

People keep lumping in FTF with early 80s albums with poor chart positions, but this is mistaken, at least based on U.S. sales. FTF charted at #44 with Constrictor (59) and RYFAY (73) both lower. In fact FTI was lower too (60). The poor selling early 80s albums were the three that followed FTF.

[pitkin88]

I had a record shop during the time Trash came out in the UK, I was a chart return shop and this meant the sales of product through my shop helped make up the charts.
When the single Poison was released, it was treated as a priority release, the Reps from Epic had to push the record as hard as they could, this meant I would get pre priced stock of the single for free, my job was to encourage sales (there were many ways this could be achieved), the main one was to scan the bar code, this would count as a sale, even if I hadn't physically sold a copy, I was allowed to give the single away if I so wished.
The aim was to get the single in the top 40, once in, it would if the public liked it sell (and they did) , if the midweek chart position was positive the Reps would then start pushing the various formats, this would ensure the position would remain in the top 40.
Luckily for Poison, it sold well without that much of push once it charted, though that did not stop Epic pushing various single variations!!
Because Poison did so well, it meant the pre-sell for the album was easier, as most record shops pre-ordered plenty of stock!!!
I remember that Hey Stoopid (single and album) were pushed heavily, The Last Temptation did not gain the same attention, but was still given a reasonable amount of attention from Epic, but the rock scene had changed!!

That is very interesting about the bar code Keith. Do you remember roughly how many free copies ypu got? Free money to you if you sold them. Also was this a standard practice with other labels and if so what was the biggest amount of these that you got?

[KeithGale]

I can't remember the amount of free copies I got, but it was the industry norm, if a single was priority the Reps would push as much free stock on you as they could (Though I would limit what I would receive from BMG distribution, who use to charge the VAT on what they supplied free of charge). Reps knew that the barcode reader supplied to indie record shops like mine, were not connected to the cash register, so this gave a lot of opportunities to manipulate the figures. I would add it would normally only be in the first or second release of the product, if the single being promoted hit the charts at 41, it was normally considered dead in the water and promotion would be withdrawn, I would add that once a single had got in the top 40, the price would revert to normal and I would get charged, there were exceptions, but not that many!!

[RemarkablyInsincere]

A bona fide hit song will sell an album. TRASH was a success because of "Poison", plain and simple.

Personally, I think TRASH is about half brilliant. "Poison", "Spark In The Dark", "House of Fire" and "Bed of Nails" are all brilliant and catchy fun songs. I enjoy them any time.

"This Maniac's In Love With You" and "Why Trust You?" are solid. After that, the album falls off a cliff though with some real dreck (pun intended).

It was Alice's biggest album since his heyday (still is) so it's truly mind boggling to me that although Desmond wanted to do the follow-up, they turned him down.

Maybe they (Alice and management) weren't entirely comfortable with the direction of the album, but I think history would suggest that it wasn't their best decision when HEY STOOPID failed to match the success of it's predecessor even though it's a an excellent album. It's missing the big hit song that POISON was and thus isn't viewed the same way and nor did it sell as much.

I'm guessing if they had to do it all over again, Desmond would have been brought back... unless there's something we don't know.

[mr.barlow]

A bona fide hit song will sell an album. TRASH was a success because of "Poison", plain and simple.

Personally, I think TRASH is about half brilliant. "Poison", "Spark In The Dark", "House of Fire" and "Bed of Nails" are all brilliant and catchy fun songs. I enjoy them any time.

"This Maniac's In Love With You" and "Why Trust You?" are solid. After that, the album falls off a cliff though with some real dreck (pun intended).

It was Alice's biggest album since his heyday (still is) so it's truly mind boggling to me that although Desmond wanted to do the follow-up, they turned him down.

Maybe they (Alice and management) weren't entirely comfortable with the direction of the album, but I think history would suggest that it wasn't their best decision when HEY STOOPID failed to match the success of it's predecessor even though it's a an excellent album. It's missing the big hit song that POISON was and thus isn't viewed the same way and nor did it sell as much.

I'm guessing if they had to do it all over again, Desmond would have been brought back... unless there's something we don't know.

Yes--Shep knew grunge was taking over and that hair metal had a quick death. Time to go in a different direction. I would make the argument that if Hey Stoopid were a carbon copy of Trash it would have sold even less.

Unless Alice was doing something like Nirvana. Pearl Jam, Soundgarden, etc, then he stood no chance of a hit record. It's why Alice collaborated with Chris Cornell for TLT.

I think Alice and Shep knew Hey Stoopid was going to be a transistion record. They would be thrilled if they somehow scored a hit but I think they went in with realistic expectations.

I remember MTV playing the video for Hey Stoopid and the Ozzy background vocals being hyped but by that time grunge was the new trend and people just didn't care. Also, the teenage record buying audience at the time lumped Alice and Ozzy in with the hair metal queens like Ratt and Quiet Riot.

Alice survived the demise of hair metal (as did Ozzy) as he was a true artist and just used hair metal as a means for a comeback and refill his bank account. He was really a true artist and was able to roll with it. He got all of his credibility back with TLT.

Hey Stoopid contains what I consider to be one of Alice's greatest songs in "Might As Well Be On Mars". The only problem is the overbloated production and the very dated guitar playing. He should have used Wagner on the track. I hope someday Alice gives that song the proper treatment and re-records it with Steve Hunter or some other player of that caliber on guitar. But I'm realistic and know it will never happen.

Maybe Steve Hunter could do a version--kind of a nod to Wagner and to give a great song the proper treatment.

Actually that song has pop diva written all over it. Someone with great pipes like Mariah Carey, Christina Aguilera, could have a HUGE hit with it. It's hidden gem!

Nirvana changed the rock scene almost overnight. They were The Beatles of the 1990s. They were the most influential band of that time and in the history of rock music. We all owe a great debt for them for killing hair metal and elbowing Alice back into becoming Alice again.

[recoop]

Very readable summary of the time Mr Barlow. I notice you credit Nirvana with being the most influential band of the time and in rock history. The rock history bit is a huge claim and I wonder how you come to that conclusion given the huge bands that came before? Thanks.

[SickThings]

Hey Stoopid contains what I consider to be one of Alice's greatest songs in "Might As Well Be On Mars". The only problem is the overbloated production and the very dated guitar playing. He should have used Wagner on the track. I hope someday Alice gives that song the proper treatment and re-records it with Steve Hunter or some other player of that caliber on guitar. But I'm realistic and know it will never happen.

Maybe Steve Hunter could do a version--kind of a nod to Wagner and to give a great song the proper treatment.

How about Dick Wagner doing it?

His version of the song appears on his Full Meltdown and Rock HitStory CDs, which can be purchased from his website.

http://www.wagnermusic.com/store.htm

They can also be found on Amazon.

Hunter

[pitkin88]

Very readable summary of the time Mr Barlow. I notice you credit Nirvana with being the most influential band of the time and in rock history. The rock history bit is a huge claim and I wonder how you come to that conclusion given the huge bands that came before? Thanks.

Yes a very bold claim. It is probably The Beatles and then The Ramones after that.

[recoop]

Haha Pitkin- it is all about opinions isn't it- the Beatles I could go along with- nothing wrong with the Ramones but don't see them as second in the influential stakes but each to their own. A Beatles and Ramones concert would have been good though.

[pitkin88]

Haha Pitkin- it is all about opinions isn't it- the Beatles I could go along with- nothing wrong with the Ramones but don't see them as second in the influential stakes but each to their own. A Beatles and Ramones concert would have been good though.

Countless bands just learning to play copied The Ramones. Think of the speed factor in the music.

[guttertrash]

Nirvana was not the biggest band of anything except corporate 90s radio drivel. They were just another media/label darling that marked the end of grunge and the start of the commercialized Seattle scene and everything we've had to live with commercially since then. Whereas Green River(then later Mudhoney), Skin Yard, early Screaming Trees, and early Soundgarden had a cohesive sound, the commercial Seattle scene has not actual music relation between most bands, and none of them were grunge.

It amazes me today how much credit Nirvana gets from indie rock to Nickelback. Underground bands can say that Nirvana was their biggest influence, but most people who say that also listen to the influences of Kurt Cobain such as The Pixies, Melvins, Mudhoney, Sonic Youth, etc, and when you listen to most bands, their main influences come from those bands more than the overproduced, simplistic Nirvana.

That being said, Alice could have tried to follow that trend, but nothing about that scene in my opinion would have worked for him. Many 80s musicians tried to make darker, Seattle influenced albums, but in the end, they were seen as copping the trend while the Alice In Chains and Soundgardens seemed legitimately honest...That also not being true, because when you listen to the first Alice In Chains demos, they were glam, and the early Soundgarden albums were completely different than Superunknown, and the real grunge bands never went anywhere...because they were not commercially appealing, rock drivel. They all copped trends, but the labels decided to move music in a new direction, and they found a batch of bands that were obscure enough to seem real.

As much as I dislike The Ramones, they are definitely number 2 in music influence. What they did created a scene which has basically led to everything since then be it musically, visually, or aesthetically.

[mr.barlow]

Nirvana laid waste to every rock band at the time. Ask any hair metal fluffer how their careers ended--rather abrubtly--as soon as they came on the scene. They changed the music scene overnight much like The Beatles in 1964.

They brought life back to rock n roll after hair metal and it's overblown (pun intended) nonsense was sucking the life and originality right out of it. They brought credibilty back to rock and roll along with Pearl Jam, Soundgarden etc. I'm sure these bands were influenced by other less known bands but the fact of the matter is it was Nirvana who had the impact--the rest followed in their wake.

It was also more than just the music. They had an immediate impact on the pop culture which impacted fashion, advertising and you name it. Again, the same as The Beatles did in 1964.

I also agree with Pitkin in that The Ramones were one of the most influential bands in the history of rock music. Everything written above can also be said about The Ramones. I will say that it's my opinion that The Ramones were more important than Nirvana as The Ramones gave birth to Nirvana. If there were never a Ramones there would have never been grunge.

The sad thing is that since Nirvana there has not been a band since that has had any sort of the same type of impact.

Once these old guard rock acts die out there is no one left to replace them.

[Mr.Bluelegs]

Back in the '70's, I thought The Police had the potential to be "the next Beatles" in regards to creating a new style of music and breaking new ground, musically. Sting's ego ruined that.

[recoop]

I wouldn't negate the influence of the Ramones or Nirvana and am old enough to have been very aware of both. I do think Alice Cooper had a massive impact and not always in a good way. I don't think there would have been any Kiss, Motley or anyone pretending to be evil without Alice Cooper but I am not saying he/they were the most influential.

It also depends how you define Rock Music. I could make a good argument for Chuck Berry being up there-at one time I was so niaive that I thought C Berry was a chief songwriter for the Stones. It's interesting that from discussing a transparently commercial product like Trash we have delved back to non Commercial influencers like the Ramones and Nirvana. Alice Cooper was very underground at one time too.

It is great to read how passionate folks are about their suggested influencers. It's a shame rock went corporate. Around 1974/5 was a bad time for me- Alice Cooper split, Bowie changed, The Faces split with Rod going corporate spandex and disco emerged. Punk in the UK and the Ramones/Television etc emerged in the US but still the corporate acts continued imo. Grunge was short lived as well but at least Punk and Grunge did pass something down the line that was raw and energetic. What next-it is time for another raw period of rock.

[Saint&Sinner]

Despite Grunge killing off good music, it thankfully was short lived only lasting 5 or 6 years before it died out (hopefully for good) and good music was allowed to come back again.
Thankfully "hair metal" is doing very well these days, especially with great bands like crashdiet and reckless love releasing fantastic albums.

[While Heaven Wept]

At-least there was some decent bands that came out of that period..... Alice in Chains, Pearl Jam, Soundgarden etc.

Never cared that much for Nirvana. Even as an impressionable 13 year old at the time, I thought it was all a bit immature.