What they should have done.

[pitkin88]

Can you explain what horror there was on Welcome to my nightmare??
For me the only horror on that album was SOME FOLKS.

Now now mestreech, it's all cartoonish now but back then that Steven harpsichord thing and Alice sounding like he belonged in an institution was kinda spooky. Him murdering his wife and the whole necrophilia thing was creepy too.

I know where Mestreech is coming from. I remember reading a review where they likened the live show to pantomine. It certainly wasn't sick and subversive like previous shows.

On the flipside, my cousins kids got seriously freaked out when he played Years Ago. It was very creepy at the time.

Cold Ethyl was a lot more tongue in dead cheek than I love the dead. I doubt anyone being creeped out by that. I Love The Dead on the other hand with it's orgasmic sounds and rotting flesh was much more subversive.

[pitkin88]

Perhaps the first mistake the 3 original Coopers made(pre BDB's) was not fighting to keep the name Alice Cooper-no?

What does PFOLGORE stand for?

I often wonder if Alice's career would have stalled if he had lost the name. I really think the band 4-1 would have won if it had gone to court. Rightly so too.

[Daggers & Contracts]

[

I often wonder if Alice's career would have stalled if he had lost the name. I really think the band 4-1 would have won if it had gone to court. Rightly so too.

They ALL would have lost, the guys didn't have a proper frontman to replace Vince & Vince w/o the AC character would have had to try to invent something else. Would have relegated ACG to a footnote in rock history instead of an on going saga.

[patrick]

I often wonder if Alice's career would have stalled if he had lost the name. I really think the band 4-1 would have won if it had gone to court. Rightly so too.[/quote]

and to what purpose ? without the name Alice woould'nt have made it, and without a frontman that good, the band wouldn't have made it neither, imo. After Queen lost Freddy it wasn't the same anymore. ( one exception : on Live Aid George Michael sang , if I remember well, Somebody to Love in such a good way, that he might have been a good replacement...imo, of course.. )
Anyway, I doubt if we would have been here talking about all this

[pitkin88]

I often wonder if Alice's career would have stalled if he had lost the name. I really think the band 4-1 would have won if it had gone to court. Rightly so too.

and to what purpose ? without the name Alice woould'nt have made it, and without a frontman that good, the band wouldn't have made it neither, imo. After Queen lost Freddy it wasn't the same anymore. ( one exception : on Live Aid George Michael sang , if I remember well, Somebody to Love in such a good way, that he might have been a good replacement...imo, of course.. )
Anyway, I doubt if we would have been here talking about all this [/quote]


Well if he had to be billed as Vince who knows?

[Mr. Skull]

I often wonder if Alice's career would have stalled if he had lost the name. I really think the band 4-1 would have won if it had gone to court. Rightly so too.

Why stop there ?
How Alice's career would have stalled should he have been a solo artist from the very beginning ?

...so many questions ..........

[patrick]

I often wonder if Alice's career would have stalled if he had lost the name. I really think the band 4-1 would have won if it had gone to court. Rightly so too.

and to what purpose ? without the name Alice woould'nt have made it, and without a frontman that good, the band wouldn't have made it neither, imo. After Queen lost Freddy it wasn't the same anymore. ( one exception : on Live Aid George Michael sang , if I remember well, Somebody to Love in such a good way, that he might have been a good replacement...imo, of course.. )
Anyway, I doubt if we would have been here talking about all this

Well if he had to be billed as Vince who knows?

wouldn't be to sure about that :-)
" Alice " was the character, "that" make-up ...

[pitkin88]

Make up was Dennis and snake was Neal. The bands name was Alice Cooper and that was before Alice was being referred to as Alice.

[Toronto Bob]

Perhaps the first mistake the 3 original Coopers made(pre BDB's) was not fighting to keep the name Alice Cooper-no?

What does PFOLGORE stand for?

I often wonder if Alice's career would have stalled if he had lost the name. I really think the band 4-1 would have won if it had gone to court. Rightly so too.

If the others pressed the issue and the courts sided with GDNM, my guess is Alice would have reconciled and they would have carried on, Shep and Bob would have been the one out in the cold.

[A_MichaelUK]

From pitkin88:
"Make up was Dennis"

I think he had the idea for the 'spider eyes' design but the 'demented clown' idea came from Alice apparently.

>and snake was Neal.

He owned it but I'm not sure who's idea it was to use it in the show(it was Dennis who suggested it I think).

>The bands name was Alice Cooper and that was before Alice was being referred to as Alice.

The gap was pretty short according to press reports of the time though. As much as the others had input into the character, you cannot underestimate the way Alice inhabited and embodied the character and the persona.

[A_MichaelUK]

From Toronto Bob:
"If the others pressed the issue and the courts sided with GDNM, my guess is Alice would have reconciled and they would have carried on,"

There seems to be a bit of confusion which is a shame as this has been discussed here before I think. What we need here is some kind of expert on American business law. For one thing, we don't know for sure if the name was under any trademark protection (according to Brian Nelson and he told me he had really looked into it, it was not and we had many discussions about this) and so if it wasn't, then there was nothing to stop Alice changing his name (for all the reasons that have been endlessly discussed here) but even if it was protected, then if the law was the same as in Britain, there was still nothing to stop him from changing his name unless there was an intention to deceive the public (which would have been almost impossible to prove). There is no way of knowing what would have happened if there had been any litigation (apart from the lawyers being the only real winners in this situation). As for reconciling with the others, that would imply Alice would want to go back to dealing with the divisions that had arisen and also go back to a band without Glen Buxton in it and I'm not so sure Alice wanted to do that.

>Shep and Bob would have been the one out in the cold.

That would have been very unlikely.

[Toronto Bob]

yeah - that's why I said "my guess". We are all speculating - even you. There is nothing to correct. Cool your jets and either play along or .

[A_MichaelUK]

From Toronto Bob:
"yeah - that's why I said "my guess"."

I know. I didn't say you did not.

>We are all speculating - even you.

Well, maybe so but my speculation if it is that, is based on over thirty years of discussion and research which includes talking to people close to the members of the band, some of the band themselves and also having seen various legal documents. I also used the word "if" just as you did. What is your speculation based on?

>There is nothing to correct.

So you're saying an alternative point of view is not allowed.

>Cool your jets and either play along or.

Are you that uptight? Did I say write anything that attacked you or your post?

[Toronto Bob]

Well I responded to you, quite reasonably I thought, but the board took your side surprise surprise. So in the interest of fairness perhaps you could leave my opinions alone, as I don't have the ability to respond back. I won't mention you and you leave me alone - deal?

[A_MichaelUK]

From Toronto Bob:
"Well I responded to you, quite reasonably I thought"

What was reasonable about "Cool your jets and either play along or ." which included some kind of expletive which the moderator removed?

>but the board took your side surprise surprise.

Stop it with the martyrdom.

>So in the interest of fairness perhaps you could leave my opinions alone, as I don't have the ability to respond back.

I don't understand. Who is stopping you from replying? Also, no, I will not ignore your comments. If there is something worth respionding to, I will respond and I would expect you to do so as well, if you wanted to.

> I won't mention you and you leave me alone - deal?

I don't think you're in a position to be making offers. After all, I don't think you ever responded to mine from a while ago (although your recent behaviour before the post in question suggested you agreed and you were doing so well too).

[pitkin88]

From Toronto Bob:
"Well I responded to you, quite reasonably I thought"

What was reasonable about "Cool your jets and either play along or ." which included some kind of expletive which the moderator removed?

>but the board took your side surprise surprise.

Stop it with the martyrdom.

>So in the interest of fairness perhaps you could leave my opinions alone, as I don't have the ability to respond back.

I don't understand. Who is stopping you from replying? Also, no, I will not ignore your comments. If there is something worth respionding to, I will respond and I would expect you to do so as well, if you wanted to.

> I won't mention you and you leave me alone - deal?

I don't think you're in a position to be making offers. After all, I don't think you ever responded to mine from a while ago (although your recent behaviour before the post in question suggested you agreed and you were doing so well too).

So he is not in the position to make offers but you are? He cancelled a suggested agreement? Priceless as usual Amuck.

[A_MichaelUK]

From pitkin88:
"So he is not in the position to make offers but you are?"

He didn't acknowledge mine so I don't need to accept his - I think that's fair.

> He cancelled a suggested agreement? Priceless as usual Amuck.

He didn't cancel anything. He just didn't acknowledge it.

[Si]

None of this has ANYTHING to do with the topic....

[evil syd]

Should of, would of, could of, we are all are guilty of that. The best thing is that we learn from it and move on.

[steven_crayn]

The first mistake that the Billion Dollar Babies made was not replacing Alice with a frontman. While many argue that Alice and others may have underestimated the contributions of Michael, Glen, Dennis and Bruce.

Who's Bruce?

Those who regrouped may have overestimated their contribution and minimized the role that Alice played. Had they brought someone like Iggy Pop aboard who was probably unemployed at the time their band would have had a longer and successful career. Michael is not a front man; just like Alice Cooper is not an actor. Stick to what you do well.

Second mistake was bringing in the keyboardist Bob Dolin and synths. Their sound worked with an organ or piano; not so much with a synth that could not evoke a mood the like piano in the Second Coming, or the organ work in Black Juju, Dwight Fry and Killer. Synths are for bands that can't afford strings and don't have a good rhythm guitarist.

Edgar Winter used a synth and he had Ronnie Montrose on guitar, you saying Ronnie couldn't play rhythm?

Third mistake was the guitarist Mike Marconi. Was not a good fit. Mick Ronson was under-employed about that time. I think both Mick and Glen were very good a making a statement with just a few notes. Mick could have helped help out with the production too.

Mick Ronson was recording with Roger Daltrey in 1977.

Fourth, the concept of a stage show should have been a non-starter. Anybody who knew who Michael, Dennis and Neal were, were already hooked on the music. And if they had brought a dynamic front man like Iggy--he would have made the show like Alice did--does. They were not capitalized enough to put on a stage show so why bother. Alice did it right--but he had the gwap. I was at the opening of his show at South Lake Tahoe--it was a major production that worked. 99% of bands (that is rock bands) don't bother because the crowd gets off on the music and energy of the performers.

Iggy signed with RCA in 1977 and was working with Bowie.

You've not thought this through have you?!