What they should have done.

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PFOLGORE
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What they should have done.

Post by PFOLGORE » Sun Oct 18, 2015 9:00 pm

The first mistake that the Billion Dollar Babies made was not replacing Alice with a frontman. While many argue that Alice and others may have underestimated the contributions of Michael, Glen, Dennis and Bruce. Those who regrouped may have overestimated their contribution and minimized the role that Alice played. Had they brought someone like Iggy Pop aboard who was probably unemployed at the time their band would have had a longer and successful career. Michael is not a front man; just like Alice Cooper is not an actor. Stick to what you do well.

Second mistake was bringing in the keyboardist Bob Dolin and synths. Their sound worked with an organ or piano; not so much with a synth that could not evoke a mood the like piano in the Second Coming, or the organ work in Black Juju, Dwight Fry and Killer. Synths are for bands that can't afford strings and don't have a good rhythm guitarist.

Third mistake was the guitarist Mike Marconi. Was not a good fit. Mick Ronson was under-employed about that time. I think both Mick and Glen were very good a making a statement with just a few notes. Mick could have helped help out with the production too.

Fourth, the concept of a stage show should have been a non-starter. Anybody who knew who Michael, Dennis and Neal were, were already hooked on the music. And if they had brought a dynamic front man like Iggy--he would have made the show like Alice did--does. They were not capitalized enough to put on a stage show so why bother. Alice did it right--but he had the gwap. I was at the opening of his show at South Lake Tahoe--it was a major production that worked. 99% of bands (that is rock bands) don't bother because the crowd gets off on the music and energy of the performers.

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Re: What they should have done.

Post by recoop » Sun Oct 18, 2015 9:12 pm

Perhaps the first mistake the 3 original Coopers made(pre BDB's) was not fighting to keep the name Alice Cooper-no?

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Re: What they should have done.

Post by PFOLGORE » Sun Oct 18, 2015 10:20 pm

Exactly, I agree 100%. If I were them I would be fighting it. Dennis and the others stress throughout the years that it was the Alice Cooper Band--and yet to my knowledge they have never fought for the right to use the name. Seems like some lawyer would be glad to help them pro bono.

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Re: What they should have done.

Post by Si » Sun Oct 18, 2015 10:50 pm

PFOLGORE wrote:Exactly, I agree 100%. If I were them I would be fighting it. Dennis and the others stress throughout the years that it was the Alice Cooper Band--and yet to my knowledge they have never fought for the right to use the name. Seems like some lawyer would be glad to help them pro bono.
It's not like they didn`t think about it, be they decided that such a legal case would destroy their friendships, and so declined to go in that direction.

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Re: What they should have done.

Post by darkmenace » Sun Oct 18, 2015 11:17 pm

PFOLGORE wrote:Exactly, I agree 100%. If I were them I would be fighting it. Dennis and the others stress throughout the years that it was the Alice Cooper Band--and yet to my knowledge they have never fought for the right to use the name.
I also agree. Alice had tossed friendship aside when he went off without them, so that shouldn't have mattered. Perhaps they felt that getting some monetary compensation that was apparently negotiated was enough.

I have also argued that the band (mainly Dennis, based on what he said in his book) should be fighting for greater royalties based on the idea that the Alice character is an intellectual property that they co-created. At the very least Dennis, Neal, and Michael they should be cited as co-creators on all uses of the Alice character, from albums to comic books, to Halloween costumes, etc.

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Re: What they should have done.

Post by mr.barlow » Sun Oct 18, 2015 11:53 pm

While I agree that the concept of having Alice play a character was an idea that was decided by more than just Alice, it also has to be noted that it was Alice who deleveloped the character into the incarnation that became the quintessential character.

The character has become to be heavily associated with the whole horror genre. Although the development of the character during his time with the original band included some dark aspects, the character was more of a glam/androgynous creation and was used more as an "in-you-face" shock element. Also, in the early years it was also used to bring a surrealistic edge to the band.


It was with Welcome To My Nightmare that Alice--and Shep---decided to take it it into the horror realm. I don't think that they thought that this would end up becoming the face of Alice for the rest of his career. It was a blessing and a curse.

That image and persona of the character became so strong that everytime Alice tried to break away or deviate from it he was met with less than spectacular results.

Once 1986 came along he decided to go with the safe bet and resurrect the classic "horror" Alice and has continued with it since, with the brief make-up less Trash (Alice Bon Jovi) foray. Horror Alice is his brand and they built it into a cash machine.

The original members should share in the credit of deciding that Alice should play a character, however, it is Alice that created his character and brand and made it into what is commonly now known as Alice Cooper.

It would make for an interesting legal case and maybe the others have looked into it in the past. I would think however, that Alice could simply present the fact that he was with the original band for seven years, five of which saw commercial success. The character in those days was fluid and changed from album to album. The tone of the character was also much different. Alice could argue( and I would think successfully) that he has been a solo artist working and developing the character for 40 years and that today's character and iconic brand bears no resemblance to the original character idea that was hatched in 1968.

Alice the character has come a long way since 1968. It has come a long way since 1974. No one associates the Alice character being a horny sailor like was portrayed on Muscle Of Love, but rather the horror infused loveable villain which stated with Welcome To My Nightmare.

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Re: What they should have done.

Post by mestreech » Mon Oct 19, 2015 3:03 am

Can you explain what horror there was on Welcome to my nightmare??
For me the only horror on that album was SOME FOLKS.

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Re: What they should have done.

Post by mr.barlow » Mon Oct 19, 2015 3:11 am

The kind that sold over a million units and made Alice millions of dollars.

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Re: What they should have done.

Post by Toronto Bob » Mon Oct 19, 2015 4:50 am

mestreech wrote:Can you explain what horror there was on Welcome to my nightmare??
For me the only horror on that album was SOME FOLKS.
Now now mestreech, it's all cartoonish now but back then that Steven harpsichord thing and Alice sounding like he belonged in an institution was kinda spooky. Him murdering his wife and the whole necrophilia thing was creepy too.

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Re: What they should have done.

Post by Toronto Bob » Mon Oct 19, 2015 5:19 am

I thought Mick Mashbir would have been a natural fit.

Iggy was touring in 1977 March/April with Bowie and then in the fall again. He wasn't in need of a job.

Fact is the band was greater than the sum of its' parts, and filling the missing components to make BDB/Battle Axe a success would have taken a minor miracle not just a dynamic front man. Your thinking dynamic front man that already had a career and reputation - so that's more in the area of Super Group, not merely a frontman

It just wasn't that great of a record, now combined with no distinctive vocals, no strong management team, it being 1977, the guys had been out of the limelight for over 3 years now and the big name the band is associated with just released a steaming pile of a record, all spelled epic fail. This project was doomed from the get go.

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Re: What they should have done.

Post by Babysquid » Mon Oct 19, 2015 9:34 am

PFOLGORE wrote:Second mistake was bringing in the keyboardist Bob Dolin and synths. Their sound worked with an organ or piano; not so much with a synth that could not evoke a mood the like piano in the Second Coming, or the organ work in Black Juju, Dwight Fry and Killer. Synths are for bands that can't afford strings and don't have a good rhythm guitarist..
I'm guessing you're not a fan of Dada then?

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Re: What they should have done.

Post by Mr. Skull » Mon Oct 19, 2015 11:33 am

BoB Dolin did also play on MoL and toured with the old Alice Cooper group on the BdB and BdBHT tours..

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Re: What they should have done.

Post by rtbuck » Mon Oct 19, 2015 3:56 pm

If they did get Iggy they wouldn't have been called the Billion Dollar Babies...it would've been called Iggy Pop. Sure the band would still be writing the songs with Iggy but they would have been his back up band. It actually may have worked out great for Iggy had he hooked up with them but he also would have had to clean himself up but it makes me wonder if after the Stooges if Iggy would have went the rockstar route with a band such as BDB & played arenas rather than clubs. He was jamming a bit w/ the Doors but nothing became of that except for rumors. Bowie was great for Iggy's career especially later when Bowie covered a few songs. I think Ronson was working with Ian Hunter during that time. In a Fantasy world though that could be a good thing but Iggy would not have taken a backseat to the band... he would have been in charge in my opinion.

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Re: What they should have done.

Post by mestreech » Mon Oct 19, 2015 4:39 pm

Iggy Pop has an excellent career and i don't see him match with the guys.

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Re: What they should have done.

Post by Babysquid » Mon Oct 19, 2015 5:25 pm

mestreech wrote:Iggy Pop has an excellent career and i don't see him match with the guys.
He was also in the middle of his first comeback with lust for life that year. And if I remember rightly he was living a reasonably clean life riding his bike around Berlin .

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Re: What they should have done.

Post by A_MichaelUK » Mon Oct 19, 2015 6:44 pm

From Toronto Bob:
"Now now mestreech, it's all cartoonish now but back then that Steven harpsichord thing and Alice sounding like he belonged in an institution was kinda spooky. Him murdering his wife and the whole necrophilia thing was creepy too."

There was the presence of Vincent Price as well.

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Re: What they should have done.

Post by wind_up_toy » Mon Oct 19, 2015 7:06 pm

mestreech wrote:Can you explain what horror there was on Welcome to my nightmare??
For me the only horror on that album was SOME FOLKS.
I've always thought that 'the trilogy' of songs (Years Ago, Steven and The Awakening) to be superbly scary.
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Re: What they should have done.

Post by Cindy Lang » Mon Oct 19, 2015 7:23 pm

I remember when Battle Axe was released and I listened to it the first time, it sounded more Alice Cooper to me than Lace & Whiskey. Many great songs on Battle Axe but the production lacks...
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Re: What they should have done.

Post by recoop » Mon Oct 19, 2015 7:56 pm

A_MichaelUK wrote:From Toronto Bob:
"Now now mestreech, it's all cartoonish now but back then that Steven harpsichord thing and Alice sounding like he belonged in an institution was kinda spooky. Him murdering his wife and the whole necrophilia thing was creepy too."

There was the presence of Vincent Price as well.
In the 70s it was fairly common for youths to listen to creepy music in small groups in a darkened room to accentuate the creepiness. I remember this listening to an early Sabbath album and Love it to Death. Nowadays the available media including videos actually make the sonic experience less creepy in my opinion. In 1975, Cold Ethyl, Devil's Food, the Black Widow, Steven and the Awakening were considered as creepy listening in my locale.
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Re: What they should have done.

Post by pitkin88 » Tue Oct 20, 2015 4:35 am

Si wrote:
PFOLGORE wrote:Exactly, I agree 100%. If I were them I would be fighting it. Dennis and the others stress throughout the years that it was the Alice Cooper Band--and yet to my knowledge they have never fought for the right to use the name. Seems like some lawyer would be glad to help them pro bono.
It's not like they didn`t think about it, be they decided that such a legal case would destroy their friendships, and so declined to go in that direction.

Also it would have nixed any possible re-union.

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