Alice considering re-recording some early 80's material

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mr.barlow

Re: Alice considering re-recording some early 80's material

Post by mr.barlow » Mon May 04, 2015 3:03 am

pitkin88 wrote:I just noticed the title track is credited solely to Bob Ezrin. This is odd as I can can see Ezrin coming up with the music or the idea, but the spoken part!!
If I remember correctly is that Erzin came up with the initial concept for the album. It's was about a very lost and confused--and some would say insane person--and putting him into therapy.

The album is about confronting and coming to terms with certain events and issues in his life. At the end he commits suicide--or does he?

I remember Amuk having a possible explanation back when the album was released that it was an album that begins at the end. The reason he is on the psychiatrist's couch is that he tried to commit suicide and failed. So the gun shot at the end is actually the beginning that leads into the song "Dada". I agree with Amuk one hundred percent!

Again--if you read into the lyrics on most of the songs--there is SO MUCH THERE! It is a very personal album. Also, I think it was the most pivitol album in the career and life of Alice. It's the album that helped him turn the corner.

One more thing--in the video that started this thread Alice himslef described himself as being "insane" during those years. That's the first time I ever heard him say that. His comments in this clip further convinced me about the whole concept and idea of "DaDa".

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Re: Alice considering re-recording some early 80's material

Post by pitkin88 » Mon May 04, 2015 6:44 am

Interesting take though the words had to have been at the very least co written by Alice. It would be nice if Alice was forced to remember a bit like Alex in A Clockwork Orange.

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Re: Alice considering re-recording some early 80's material

Post by A_MichaelUK » Mon May 04, 2015 9:06 am

From mr.barlow:
"I agree with Amuk one hundred percent!"

It is a bit ambiguous. Is it the father (referred to in "Enough's Enough") or the son (referred to in most of the rest of the songs) who is having the therapy?

mr.barlow

Re: Alice considering re-recording some early 80's material

Post by mr.barlow » Mon May 04, 2015 5:47 pm

I will preface this by saying that no one knows for sure what the songs truly mean or what was intended other than asking the writers themselves.
I always think of what John Lennon once said about people looking for meaning in his songs and that sometimes--there is no meaning--it was just him having fun with words.
Dylan also speaks of how some of the now common perceptions about his lyrics and songs are far from what he intended.

One has to look at the mindset of the writer(s) at the time and also the circumstances at the time of the production and what is influencing / driving the writer at the time.

But here's a few of my thoughts on it.

To me, the common theme of most of the songs is that of being used by people for their own gain.
Enough's Enough, No Man's Land, Scarlet & Sheba, Fresh Blood all contain this theme.

I have always perceived it to be "Sonny" on the couch after a nervous breakdown. A person who is very confused about things. I also always believed that the "have a daughter' angle is in reference to Alice. The son/daughter "takes care of me" I have always thought to be a reference of how the character sustained the person.

I can write for hours about this album. When you understand Alice's mind set at the time--what he went through and was still going through it really opens it up.

I believe that the father in "Enough's Enough" was actually Warner Bros Records.

Enough for now--I gotta get back to work.

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Re: Alice considering re-recording some early 80's material

Post by Railwayman » Mon May 04, 2015 7:36 pm

As I said before, good ideas but such a plodding affair lacking in any energy or drive.
Some people love it, no problems with that, just not my favourite.
I would rather Alice got around to doing some new stuff than messing about with these 'blackout' albums.

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Re: Alice considering re-recording some early 80's material

Post by pitkin88 » Mon May 04, 2015 7:54 pm

Well he has done some new stuff which has been gathering dust for some time now.

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Re: Alice considering re-recording some early 80's material

Post by Railwayman » Mon May 04, 2015 8:22 pm

Yes that's a strange one. I cannot make my mind up if I am looking forward to the covers extravaganza or not. Alice has covered material before with some distinction, perhaps, for me, most notably Hello Hurray. Only when somebody gets around to actually releasing it will we know if it was worth waiting for.

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Re: Alice considering re-recording some early 80's material

Post by pitkin88 » Mon May 04, 2015 8:48 pm

I cant see him hitting it out the park with this especially if he chooses stone cold classics to cover.The covers that worked best were odd choices like Hello Hurray, Sun Arise and more recently Pretty Ballarina. All three of those are way better than the originals. I think it will be what we have come to expect of late about 4-5 good songs and the rest meh. I think the few new songs on the album are what most fans are looking forward to hearing,

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Re: Alice considering re-recording some early 80's material

Post by pitkin88 » Tue May 05, 2015 2:21 am

Back to Da Da: It is amazing to think that Former Lee Warmer ( one of the very best songs he has written ) has never been performed live and sadly never will be.

mr.barlow

Re: Alice considering re-recording some early 80's material

Post by mr.barlow » Tue May 05, 2015 4:41 am

pitkin88 wrote:Back to Da Da: It is amazing to think that Former Lee Warmer ( one of the very best songs he has written ) has never been performed live and sadly never will be.
I agree. It's a shame that none of those songs were ever performed live. I always felt that "Scarlet & Sheba" / "Go To Hell" / "Fresh Blood" would make for a killer trilogy in a live show.

It's also a shame that the people involved--especially Alice--won't open up about it. We owe a great debt to those guys who got Wagner to talk about it before his death as that is really the only in-depth look at the album ever offered. I know Wagner was quite proud of it and I believe he thought that it was even miles ahead of Welcome To My Nightmare. He was absolutely right. He too felt it was Alice's masterpiece.
I'm hoping as time passes and the album starts getting the respect and admiration it deserves (which is starting to happen) that we will hear more about it from those involved.

I also hope that Alice would include at least one song from it in his live shows before he retires.

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Re: Alice considering re-recording some early 80's material

Post by Steven Lee Cooper » Tue May 05, 2015 10:41 pm

Difficult to add anything to all the interesting points that darkmenace and mrbarlow have made.

A "budget album" ? With such a wealth of sonic landscapes throughout ? You wouldn't find such a richness of tone in a budget album. The whole album bathes in a very special sonic colour, that, in turn, is what gives (partly) its particular atmosphere to it - that's where I agree with what darkmenace put forward. A kind of dark-and-bright sound, wide and present through most of the songs, establishing some kind of solar and -of course- theatrical darkness. I'm now listening to it : has Alice done something more musical and sophisticated than Former Lee Warmer ? It's arrangements are just so brilliant ! Also, perfect and diverse vocal delivery, subtle in its theatricality.

I also happen to think that it is Alice's most refined solo album - filled with songs that are impossibe to describe or to put in a niche. No Man's Land also is great, the rythm has that kind of unstoppable pattern to it. The computer drums are much less noticeable on this album than on some tracks from Strangulator.... And the last lyrics, under the joyful music, stares straight at you, telling you so much about Alice's state of mind back then ! Dyslexia : I perfectly understand that some people can hate it, because of the gimmicky repetitive rythmn, but here again, it has a freshness in its melody, a light in its sound, that I like very much, and I like how Alice sings it.

Now let me change the side please, and I'll come back to you.... ;)


Ah, here we are. Scarlet and Sheba. I love it. Such luxurious music ! Theatrical, with a wide, large sonic landscape. Alice sings kind of high and clear in the verses, more in a gritty manner in the chorus.... This track is perhaps the point where that "dark, warm, sharp" sound is the most evident. That sound that is dark and blinding at the same time - coming to a climax in the last time the chorus is sung, while Dick Wagner makes the song going on like a sharpened march... and makes it explode it on I Love America, making yet another song appear like it was another world ! Here again, I hear nothing not to like. I like the 'slow' but on-going rythm it has - this seems to be the case with most of the songs on the LP. Listening to that song feels like biting on a juicy fruit on a beautiful day !

Fresh Blood - love every aspect of that song. Listen to that keyboard arrangements during the chorus, it sounds like musical rain glinding down your ears. The drumming work is great . The length of the song just builds its intensity all along, adding piece after piece in its inner construction.


Then.... Everytime I listen to the last song, I say to myself : "this is Alice Cooper's most beautiful song. Ever." That said, I say the same about "Second Coming' & "Ballad Of Dwight Fry". But yes indeed, I consider them his three greatest songs ever. Pass The Gun Around contains one of most beautiful guitar solos I've ever heard, a timeless and touching set of lyrics (brilliantly sung in the most affective and sincere voice) and is one of the most heartbreaking songs I've ever heard. Alice could have not hoped for a better last song for this album.

For years, I was angry that Alice never performed any track from DaDa. But now I also think something else : would I be happy if he included any of them, but in a heavy metal version ? God, I would be as disgusted as I was each time I heard an ACG classic in the hands of Kane Roberts. No, I certainly don't need to hear buchered versions of these gems.

And about new studio versions of these songs ? No; they have to be left alone, the way they are.

I remember reading on Rate Your Music a comment by a guy saying this was a "synth-pop album" (!!!), others complaining that it had synthesisers - as if the "Garbage" album wasn't just drowned in it !! :rotfl:


I also remember reading reviews saying that, in order to like this album, you would need to have an open-mind.... I mean, as if it was not preferable to have an open mind anyway when it comes to music !!!! So sad that some people don't see an open mind as a value. ::((:

I've already said that Dada, for sonic and stylistic reasons, belongs with albums by David Bowie, Kate Bush or Peter Gabriel.
And given a real promotion and support on its release, it would have gained Alice all the respect these performers have.

And when you think of what was next..... ::((:
Steven Lee Cooper peeks in the forums when he feels really brave....

mr.barlow

Re: Alice considering re-recording some early 80's material

Post by mr.barlow » Wed May 06, 2015 3:04 am

Dada has an atmosphere that just pulls you in. I've never heard anything like it before or since it's release. The production is simply amazing. The songwriting is by far the best in the careers of Alice and Dick Wagner.

Everything works. Everything is perfect. It should never be touched.

The lyrics---just incredible. This is what Alice Cooper is capable of. This album proves his talent and artistry. This is not a Top 40 album for teenagers, This is not an album of the stand-by horror movie nonsense. It's not trying to score a hit with a sappy ballad, or to cash in with the current trends like "Trash". This was an album of honest and very original music.

Like I said in previous posts--I could write for hours about this album. I will keep it brief and just say that the multiple layered lead vocal tracks on "Fresh Blood" is absolutely brilliant. It's one of the best vocal tracks of his career. It makes me want to wretch when I think of how he went from something like that to warbling "bayuuubee" on songs on "Trash".

The album has a certain sadness running through it. But in it's sadness there is so much warmth and humor. To me it's the ONLY album where Alice Cooper the person comes through. You can feel his pain. You can feel his melancholy. You can feel him trying to keep a smile on his face while his whole world is crashing down. You can feel his confusion and his despair, and his utter disgust with everything.

I understand that people have different opinions and musical tastes, but what I can't understand is how anybody who knows the history of Alice, especially of his personal and professional decline in that era, cannot feel something upon listening to that album.

It baffles me how a total piece of corporate crap like "Trash" gets more respect from a large segment of his fans than his most personal album that contains the best lyrics of his career. It sure shows the marked difference between the fan base of say David Bowie or Rush than that of Alice. They let their artists explore and grow. Alice's fans would deride a brilliantly original cutting edge song (at the time) like "Dyslexia" and rave about a spit shined turd like "Poison".

This explains all you need to know about why Alice chose the career path he did after Dada and why he continues to make the decisions he does to this day. Why go out of your way to create brilliance like "Dada" when all they want is the not-so-scary guy in make up singing about spiders, nightmares and a house of fire.

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Re: Alice considering re-recording some early 80's material

Post by A_MichaelUK » Wed May 06, 2015 9:22 am

From pitkin88:
"The covers that worked best were odd choices like Hello Hurray, Sun Arise and more recently Pretty Ballarina. All three of those are way better than the originals."

Do you not think that last one was very close to the original though? After all, in the past, you have criticized some of his other versions for being so close to the original versions.

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Re: Alice considering re-recording some early 80's material

Post by A_MichaelUK » Wed May 06, 2015 9:25 am

From mr.barlow:
"It baffles me how a total piece of corporate crap like "Trash" gets more respect from a large segment of his fans"

That is probably because, for a lot of those people, that's the point at which they become aware of Alice, so that era has more resonance.

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Re: Alice considering re-recording some early 80's material

Post by Maaki » Wed May 06, 2015 11:29 am

mr.barlow wrote:It baffles me how a total piece of corporate crap like "Trash" gets more respect from a large segment of his fans than his most personal album that contains the best lyrics of his career. It sure shows the marked difference between the fan base of say David Bowie or Rush than that of Alice. They let their artists explore and grow. Alice's fans would deride a brilliantly original cutting edge song (at the time) like "Dyslexia" and rave about a spit shined turd like "Poison
Thank you for another top quality post.

Regarding the lines I quoted, I would like to point out Let's Dance though. While completely different as a song, it is very much like like Poison in a way that it turned a corner in Bowie's career. It is certainly not an artistic high point for him, but it is an important piece nonetheless. I view Poison like that for Alice. Also there are the personal things that I wrote in the other thread, but regardless of those, I appreciate Poison because I think it is a big reason that there is still Alice. Every Bowie fan should appreciate Let's Dance for the same reason, in my opinion.

I think you are being too hard on many of the fans of Alice and in a way to the Man himself. Bowie and Alice are both artists but they are entertainers as well. I am not saying they are the same, but I am saying that they need audience to be relevant and quite likely to be happy.

So I agree with what you say, but I also think that maybe you would feel better if you didn't feel so strongly about all this :HEART: It's show biz after all and there's still enough space between us and the Beliebers :) (Tell me there is :P )

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Re: Alice considering re-recording some early 80's material

Post by pitkin88 » Wed May 06, 2015 4:59 pm

A_MichaelUK wrote:From mr.barlow:
"It baffles me how a total piece of corporate crap like "Trash" gets more respect from a large segment of his fans"

That is probably because, for a lot of those people, that's the point at which they become aware of Alice, so that era has more resonance.

That is true. A lot of fans like Constrictor as that is where they got on and they were probably metal freaks.

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Re: Alice considering re-recording some early 80's material

Post by pitkin88 » Wed May 06, 2015 5:03 pm

A_MichaelUK wrote:From pitkin88:
"The covers that worked best were odd choices like Hello Hurray, Sun Arise and more recently Pretty Ballarina. All three of those are way better than the originals."

Do you not think that last one was very close to the original though? After all, in the past, you have criticized some of his other versions for being so close to the original versions.

It is though the original is a bit weedy sounding. It is not something you would expect Alice to cover which throws you right away. His vocal is very different too. I played this at a record night and everyone liked though no one guessed it was Alice Cooper. Someone even said David Cassidy!! Stands out like a good sore thumb on an average album.

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Re: Alice considering re-recording some early 80's material

Post by A_MichaelUK » Wed May 06, 2015 5:47 pm

From pitkin88:
"It is though the original is a bit weedy sounding."

The arrangement is pretty similar though.

>His vocal is very different too.

I don't know about "very different" but, as with most singers singing a song that has already been sung, he did indeed make at least one change to the melody.

mr.barlow

Re: Alice considering re-recording some early 80's material

Post by mr.barlow » Thu May 07, 2015 12:52 am

A_MichaelUK wrote:From mr.barlow:
"It baffles me how a total piece of corporate crap like "Trash" gets more respect from a large segment of his fans"

That is probably because, for a lot of those people, that's the point at which they become aware of Alice, so that era has more resonance.
I agree. I came on board in 1981 and those albums resonate with me, but at the same time I was aware of and liked the classic stuff of the 1970s. As a little kid I knew of Alice becaue of School's Out and Welcome To My Nightmare--but it was the Special Forces look and sound that hooked me.

Howver, I immediately started buying all of his back catalog and came to love or at least appreciate nearly all of it.

I guess I'm lucky that I "discovered" Alice when I did as it was in the midst of the very diverse moment of his career. I looked foward to seeing what was next in both the character and the music. I LIKED the constant change.

The fact that Alice can keep getting new fans with different styles over his career is a testament as to why he is a legend.

On this board alone you have fans who discovered Alice with Easy Action and others with Dirty Diamonds, etc. That's pretty amazing!

Constrictor and more so Trash opened up Alice to a whole new generation of fans. That was the intended goal and they succeeded.

But again--with all my snobbish musical heart--I find "Trash" to be quite awful :)

But there are those who love it and love Alice because of it. I may not like it but I'm sure Alice doe$.

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Re: Alice considering re-recording some early 80's material

Post by darkmenace » Thu May 07, 2015 1:38 am

I agree with pretty much everything Mr. Barlow has said except Poison is a far better song, by any standard, than Dyslexia!

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