Wish Alice Would Do This!

[RemarkablyInsincere]

It's hard for me to disagree that it's getting stale. Three years of touring the same show (or a shortened version of it) is just too much.

Right now my excitement for the upcoming year is at its lowest ebb than at any time since before 2000.

The Hollywood Vampires project actually seems exciting in comparison at this point.

[MrD Returns]

"Hey fans, we've got a brand new show this time around. Yeah this year I'm wearing red and black stripes!!!!"

[A_MichaelUK]

From darkmenace:
"I don't count playing greatest hits as the same concept."

Exactly and probably was not what concolz was referring to in his or her post.

[A_MichaelUK]

From pitkin88:
"It is the same concept as the album was played in full."

I don't think that's what concolz was referring to though.

[A_MichaelUK]

From concolz:
"an insistence that has-been metal acts are 'still where it's at', whilst ignoring many great new bands."

You do seem slightly obsessed with this. Alice isn't "ignoring" anybody - it's just that, like most people of his age, his life doesn't revolve around discovering "new band" and since he doesn't use the internet or listen to the radio unless he's in one of his cars or go to clubs, he has limited exposure to any of that stuff, unless it enters his orbit by some other method. As for "has-been heavy metal acts", it isn't down to him who promoters put on any bill he's appearing on.

>Generating that 'grab 'em by the throat' greatness of his best work won't be easy from here.

With respect, that is one of the silliest things I've ever read. When you consider he has been an artist for almost fifty years and is nearly seventy years old, I don't understand why you would expect anything he may do from now on to have that "'grab 'em by the throat' greatness of his best work".

[concolz]

From concolz:
>Generating that 'grab 'em by the throat' greatness of his best work won't be easy from here.

With respect, that is one of the silliest things I've ever read. When you consider he has been an artist for almost fifty years and is nearly seventy years old, I don't understand why you would expect anything he may do from now on to have that "'grab 'em by the throat' greatness of his best work".

I don't think it's silly at all. Glen Campbell recorded his best ever album, 'Ghost On The Canvas', when he was 75 and in the initial throes of Alzheimers. Johnny Cash's 'American Recordings' albums, made at the end of his life, are universally lauded as the best thing he ever did. Patti Smith, at 69, is still releasing albums that are every bit as 'throat grabbing' as her brilliant 1970s records. Ian Hunter (76), Leonard Cohen (80) and Dolly Parton (69) have all recently released albums that are just as creative as their earlier stuff.

Age and longevity don't determine (lack of) creativity and innovation, more attitude and motivation.

[mr.barlow]

From concolz:
>Generating that 'grab 'em by the throat' greatness of his best work won't be easy from here.

With respect, that is one of the silliest things I've ever read. When you consider he has been an artist for almost fifty years and is nearly seventy years old, I don't understand why you would expect anything he may do from now on to have that "'grab 'em by the throat' greatness of his best work".

I don't think it's silly at all. Glen Campbell recorded his best ever album, 'Ghost On The Canvas', when he was 75 and in the initial throes of Alzheimers. Johnny Cash's 'American Recordings' albums, made at the end of his life, are universally lauded as the best thing he ever did. Patti Smith, at 69, is still releasing albums that are every bit as 'throat grabbing' as her brilliant 1970s records. Ian Hunter (76), Leonard Cohen (80) and Dolly Parton (69) have all recently released albums that are just as creative as their earlier stuff.

Age and longevity don't determine (lack of) creativity and innovation, more attitude and motivation.

To compare Alice to all of the above artists mentioned is laughable. Their audience and marketing is VASTLY different than Alice.

Alice has always and will always be a hard rock artists with a stage show. He has always been perceived as more of an "entertainer" or "showman" than as a "serious artist". Alice himself never played the "serious artist" card and never distanced himself from being a "showman".
I am quite certain that anyone under the age of 30 is not clamoring for Alice to "grab them by the throat". I'm sure Alice is not clamoring to "grab them buy the throat". I think ALice is quite content with what he is doing. The fans may not like it--but that's the way that it is.
it's amazing that Alice still has the touring schedule he does--the guy is nearing 70 years old and still lives on the road and puts on a great show. While othe rockers his age around him are dropping dead on a daily basis he is still going strong.

Alice's days of being a "ground breaking artist" are long gone. He is now a nostalgia act for a graying crowd. I'm not saying he doesn't have another great album in him, but even if he does--expect it to go nowhere with today's music buying crowd.

My personal opnion is that if Alice stayed with the direction of "Dada" he may have been able to transition into a more "mature" direction. The problem with that is that no one wanted to hear Alice mature. They wanted to hear the same old schlock "horror" hard rock Alice. Everytime he tried to change--from Escargot to the rapid changes in the early 1980s--to the incredible sound of Dada--the FANS wouldn't let him change. They wanted "horror" Alice--so Alice gave them what they wanted and became very rich --and pigeon holed--doing so.

At any rate---a guy who at 67 years old slaps on make-up and sticks his head in a guillotine will never be taken seriously as a "grab em by the throat" artist by today's music audience. That shock ended in 1973! He is the modern day equivalent of Grandpa Munster. A beloved character who is a very nice guy and does not take himself too seriously. And he gives the audience a great show every night!

[A_MichaelUK]

From concolz:
“Patti Smith, at 69, is still releasing albums that are every bit as 'throat grabbing' as her brilliant 1970s records. Ian Hunter (76), Leonard Cohen (80) and Dolly Parton (69) have all recently released albums that are just as creative as their earlier stuff.”

Who says so? Just because you think so doesn’t make it true, just as me saying “Welcome 2 My nightmare” was his best album in years doesn’t make it true either. It is all subjective. Also, with the exception of one of the artists, you mentioned, Alice has an iconic status which surpasses those of the others you mentioned and that is also something none (and I do mean none) of any of the trendy or 'hip' artists you want him to listen to will ever achieve. Maybe that isn't 'cool' as far as your concerned but most people grow out of that way of thinking.

>Age and longevity don't determine (lack of) creativity and innovation, more attitude and motivation.

Make up your mind what the problem is. Your previous post contained a whole litany of what you think is wrong with the way things are in Alice's career and few of those, if any, have anything to do with “innovation” or “attitude”. If Alice's next album was the greatest thing you have ever heard, would you still be complaining about cruises?

[cooperrocks]

I have several thoughts on this. The thing everyone needs to remember is most of this is business. We don't like to think about music as a business but it is, just like sports, television or anything else. An artist, while hopefully enjoying their craft, is also trying to make a living, sell as many albums as possible, etc. Case and point, a lot of people on this board are very critical of albums such as the Trash album. I personally like that album, but then again I am a fan of many of the hair bands. I can see why a fan who only likes 70's sounding rock would hate an album like that, while a fan of 80's style rock would love it. It is all subjective. But ultimately Alice made an album in that style because that is what was popular at the time. He was trying to maintain the Alice sound, but also sound current as well. That's the business aspect of it.

The truth is any artist, actor, athlete, etc is going to make business decisions sometimes that long-time, diehard fans are going to disagree with. We as fans can do one of two things. We can try and support it or we can choose not to go to the shows or buy a new album. Does a cover album particularly thrill me? Not at all because I generally don't care for cover albums in general. Will I buy it? Yes because I am willing to give it a chance, but I can respect those not willing to shell out money for something they don't like. However, let's avoid being overly critical about something we haven't heard yet.

The same also applies to touring. I think most of us would agree we would rather see Alice as the headliner but Alice is getting far more exposure and probably a lot more money opening up for Motley Crue. A decision like that is obviously going to leave the diehard fan cold, but most music fans aren't diehards like we are. That's why setlists are done the way they are as well. Personally I have seen Alice live many times and I could honestly go without hearing "Eighteen" or "School's Out" because I have seen and heard those songs time after time. Several of you feel the same way, but the casual fan only knows the hits. Considering the majority of the audience are "casual fans" then the setlist has to play more to that audience. That's all part of the music business.

The question simply becomes how much of the "business" are you willing to take or not take? I used to be a big fan of Ozzy and a casual fan of KISS. Some of the business decisions Ozzy and company have made in recent years, turned me off as a fan and now I am no longer interested. KISS, I was never crazy about to begin with (liked a few songs) but some of their business decisions completely ran me off as well. You just have to ask yourself what you can take.

Finally (And thanks to everyone for reading this long post), in regards to recording a great album, I don't think it is unrealistic as a fan to want your favorite artist(s) to put out great albums even at an older age. The problem though is you have several issues. One, in the case of Alice, some fans can't get past the work he did with the original band or early in his solo career. That was over 40 years ago, so you are never going to get that again. Two, it is all subjective anyway. Three, part of perception unfortunately has to do with how well an album is marketed, its success, etc. Consider the Welcome To My Nightmare album. When it first came out, a lot of diehards thought it was a sell-out. Now it is considered a classic. Consider an album like "Dada." I don't think many accused it of being a great album back in 1983 and the casual fan probably doesn't even know about that album to this day. But in recent years, it is now considered one of Alice's best albums by diehard fans. Personally I think The Last Temptation and Brutal Planet are as good as anything Alice has ever done, yet outside of the diehard fans, not many are going to mention those albums as "classics." My point? There just isn't much Alice can do in regards to a new recording, that's going to please the masses.

[pitkin88]

It's hard for me to disagree that it's getting stale. Three years of touring the same show (or a shortened version of it) is just too much.

Right now my excitement for the upcoming year is at its lowest ebb than at any time since before 2000.

The Hollywood Vampires project actually seems exciting in comparison at this point.

Is anyone really excited about this? There is some curiousity but that's about it.

[mr.barlow]

I have several thoughts on this. The thing everyone needs to remember is most of this is business. We don't like to think about music as a business but it is, just like sports, television or anything else. An artist, while hopefully enjoying their craft, is also trying to make a living, sell as many albums as possible, etc. Case and point, a lot of people on this board are very critical of albums such as the Trash album. I personally like that album, but then again I am a fan of many of the hair bands. I can see why a fan who only likes 70's sounding rock would hate an album like that, while a fan of 80's style rock would love it. It is all subjective. But ultimately Alice made an album in that style because that is what was popular at the time. He was trying to maintain the Alice sound, but also sound current as well. That's the business aspect of it.

The truth is any artist, actor, athlete, etc is going to make business decisions sometimes that long-time, diehard fans are going to disagree with. We as fans can do one of two things. We can try and support it or we can choose not to go to the shows or buy a new album. Does a cover album particularly thrill me? Not at all because I generally don't care for cover albums in general. Will I buy it? Yes because I am willing to give it a chance, but I can respect those not willing to shell out money for something they don't like. However, let's avoid being overly critical about something we haven't heard yet.

The same also applies to touring. I think most of us would agree we would rather see Alice as the headliner but Alice is getting far more exposure and probably a lot more money opening up for Motley Crue. A decision like that is obviously going to leave the diehard fan cold, but most music fans aren't diehards like we are. That's why setlists are done the way they are as well. Personally I have seen Alice live many times and I could honestly go without hearing "Eighteen" or "School's Out" because I have seen and heard those songs time after time. Several of you feel the same way, but the casual fan only knows the hits. Considering the majority of the audience are "casual fans" then the setlist has to play more to that audience. That's all part of the music business.

The question simply becomes how much of the "business" are you willing to take or not take? I used to be a big fan of Ozzy and a casual fan of KISS. Some of the business decisions Ozzy and company have made in recent years, turned me off as a fan and now I am no longer interested. KISS, I was never crazy about to begin with (liked a few songs) but some of their business decisions completely ran me off as well. You just have to ask yourself what you can take.

Finally (And thanks to everyone for reading this long post), in regards to recording a great album, I don't think it is unrealistic as a fan to want your favorite artist(s) to put out great albums even at an older age. The problem though is you have several issues. One, in the case of Alice, some fans can't get past the work he did with the original band or early in his solo career. That was over 40 years ago, so you are never going to get that again. Two, it is all subjective anyway. Three, part of perception unfortunately has to do with how well an album is marketed, its success, etc. Consider the Welcome To My Nightmare album. When it first came out, a lot of diehards thought it was a sell-out. Now it is considered a classic. Consider an album like "Dada." I don't think many accused it of being a great album back in 1983 and the casual fan probably doesn't even know about that album to this day. But in recent years, it is now considered one of Alice's best albums by diehard fans. Personally I think The Last Temptation and Brutal Planet are as good as anything Alice has ever done, yet outside of the diehard fans, not many are going to mention those albums as "classics." My point? There just isn't much Alice can do in regards to a new recording, that's going to please the masses.

One of the best posts I've read on here in a while. Right on the mark and very well written!

[A_MichaelUK]

From cooperrocks:
"We don't like to think about music as a business but it is, just like sports, television or anything else."

Exactly and as I've pointed out before, there seem to be a few people around here (by which I mean people who are old enough to know better) that think the music business is like an episode of "The Monkees" or something. Obviously it isn't just about the business realities but they are pretty much paramount (unless you're happy to flush money down the toilet just so that you can look 'cool') and it's incredibly naive to think otherwise.

>I can see why a fan who only likes 70's sounding rock would hate an album like that, while a fan of 80's style rock would love it.

Equally, that person can set his prejudice aside and discover that he or she likes both of those equally but no - some people think that isn't 'cool' for some reason. It really is ridiculous.

>He was trying to maintain the Alice sound, but also sound current as well. That's the business aspect of it.

Also, he actually did like some of that stuff. What was he supposed to do? Was he supposed to worry that it wouldn't be 'cool' as far as some people were concerned? I guess if he started saying he liked Skrillex or The Aphex Twin, some people would think he was 'cool' all of a sudden, whereas previously he was not. Again, it's ridiculous.

>You just have to ask yourself what you can take.

Exactly - as I keep saying, it's impossible to tailor everything to everyone's individual requirements and it's somewhat astonishing that the point even has to be made.

> I don't think it is unrealistic as a fan to want your favorite artist(s) to put out great albums even at an older age.

I agree but the point I was making in an earlier post is that for some reason, some people seem to insist and demand that Alice do something as brilliant as what he did in the past and while it isn't impossible, at this point in his career it shouldn't be assumed that it will happen. The world has changed and people change.

>There just isn't much Alice can do in regards to a new recording, that's going to please the masses.

Although almost all these points have been made before many times, this post was a really good summary.

[MrD Returns]

I have several thoughts on this. The thing everyone needs to remember is most of this is business. We don't like to think about music as a business but it is, just like sports, television or anything else. An artist, while hopefully enjoying their craft, is also trying to make a living, sell as many albums as possible, etc. Case and point, a lot of people on this board are very critical of albums such as the Trash album. I personally like that album, but then again I am a fan of many of the hair bands. I can see why a fan who only likes 70's sounding rock would hate an album like that, while a fan of 80's style rock would love it. It is all subjective. But ultimately Alice made an album in that style because that is what was popular at the time. He was trying to maintain the Alice sound, but also sound current as well. That's the business aspect of it.

The truth is any artist, actor, athlete, etc is going to make business decisions sometimes that long-time, diehard fans are going to disagree with. We as fans can do one of two things. We can try and support it or we can choose not to go to the shows or buy a new album. Does a cover album particularly thrill me? Not at all because I generally don't care for cover albums in general. Will I buy it? Yes because I am willing to give it a chance, but I can respect those not willing to shell out money for something they don't like. However, let's avoid being overly critical about something we haven't heard yet.

The same also applies to touring. I think most of us would agree we would rather see Alice as the headliner but Alice is getting far more exposure and probably a lot more money opening up for Motley Crue. A decision like that is obviously going to leave the diehard fan cold, but most music fans aren't diehards like we are. That's why setlists are done the way they are as well. Personally I have seen Alice live many times and I could honestly go without hearing "Eighteen" or "School's Out" because I have seen and heard those songs time after time. Several of you feel the same way, but the casual fan only knows the hits. Considering the majority of the audience are "casual fans" then the setlist has to play more to that audience. That's all part of the music business.

The question simply becomes how much of the "business" are you willing to take or not take? I used to be a big fan of Ozzy and a casual fan of KISS. Some of the business decisions Ozzy and company have made in recent years, turned me off as a fan and now I am no longer interested. KISS, I was never crazy about to begin with (liked a few songs) but some of their business decisions completely ran me off as well. You just have to ask yourself what you can take.

Finally (And thanks to everyone for reading this long post), in regards to recording a great album, I don't think it is unrealistic as a fan to want your favorite artist(s) to put out great albums even at an older age. The problem though is you have several issues. One, in the case of Alice, some fans can't get past the work he did with the original band or early in his solo career. That was over 40 years ago, so you are never going to get that again. Two, it is all subjective anyway. Three, part of perception unfortunately has to do with how well an album is marketed, its success, etc. Consider the Welcome To My Nightmare album. When it first came out, a lot of diehards thought it was a sell-out. Now it is considered a classic. Consider an album like "Dada." I don't think many accused it of being a great album back in 1983 and the casual fan probably doesn't even know about that album to this day. But in recent years, it is now considered one of Alice's best albums by diehard fans. Personally I think The Last Temptation and Brutal Planet are as good as anything Alice has ever done, yet outside of the diehard fans, not many are going to mention those albums as "classics." My point? There just isn't much Alice can do in regards to a new recording, that's going to please the masses.

Yep good post. Lot's of good points. I agree that Brutal Planet was Alice's best work in years and was hoping to see more of that caliber but so far nothing has come close, in my humble opinion.
As far as Dada goes...I still use that CD as a coaster.

[concolz]

Just consulted my trusty crystal ball, and can exclusively reveal that, come September, the Hollywood Vampires disband after just one gig (too much bad blood), plus the covers album is scrapped! How sad. Not.

Alice decides to form another group, called, er, Alice Cooper, featuring, er, himself, MB, DD, NS and, of course, Mr Depp. They set out on a world tour (theatres/civic halls only) titled, 'Brat Out Of Hell', supported by The Strypes, and newly-formed SupaDupa (comprising Alice's old touring band, plus Orianthi - Chuck/Ori share lead vocals).

Setlist:- 'Billion Dollar Babies' in full, followed by 'Killer' in full; 'Eighteen', 'Bite Your Face Off' and 'School's Out' as the encores. Support bands then join for grand rendition of 'Poison'. (SupaDupa, alongside their own material, feature a few of solo Alice's more obscure tracks.)

Live album recorded on tour; to be released as a double, alongside new studio effort. Sorted. Lol. I wish!

[Toronto Bob]

Finally (And thanks to everyone for reading this long post), in regards to recording a great album, I don't think it is unrealistic as a fan to want your favorite artist(s) to put out great albums even at an older age. The problem though is you have several issues. One, in the case of Alice, some fans can't get past the work he did with the original band or early in his solo career. That was over 40 years ago, so you are never going to get that again. Two, it is all subjective anyway. Three, part of perception unfortunately has to do with how well an album is marketed, its success, etc. Consider the Welcome To My Nightmare album. When it first came out, a lot of diehards thought it was a sell-out. Now it is considered a classic. Consider an album like "Dada." I don't think many accused it of being a great album back in 1983 and the casual fan probably doesn't even know about that album to this day. But in recent years, it is now considered one of Alice's best albums by diehard fans. Personally I think The Last Temptation and Brutal Planet are as good as anything Alice has ever done, yet outside of the diehard fans, not many are going to mention those albums as "classics." My point? There just isn't much Alice can do in regards to a new recording, that's going to please the masses.

Since you have come to the conclusion that Alice is no longer a viable recording artist commercially, then why should he bother artistically, to try and make a great record? Odd logic but perhaps one that AC has actually embraced.


So between not bothering to make great new music and concerts performed by rote, what exactly is the interest in Alice Cooper these days? And what exactly are you defending? Some circus performer? I know your lengthy post was meant as some sort of laying to rest any and all criticisms of Alice but it actually goes a long way to proving the discerning Alice fan correct.

[Toronto Bob]

sorry double post

[A_MichaelUK]

From Toronto Bob:
"Since you have come to the conclusion that Alice is no longer a viable recording artist commercially, then why should he bother artistically, to try and make a great record? Odd logic but perhaps one that AC has actually embraced.

Yes, it is "odd logic" but leaving that aside, if that were the case, surely he would stop making albums altogether. If there was no commercial or artistic reason, there would be no point. In fact, one of those was pretty much the reason he stopped recording after "The Last Temptation". He didn't want to make an album that he didn't want to make just because he had to.

>So between not bothering to make great new music

Hopefully (and following on from your first paragraph), you're just making a suggesting that rather than stating it as a fact. Also, are you sure you read what cooperrocks wrote? He said (as did I before him) that's it's all "subjective".

> and concerts performed by rote,

I would defy you to stand a few feet from him while he's performing "The Ballad Of Dwight Fry" or "Caffeine" and still come to that conclusion.

>what exactly is the interest in Alice Cooper these days?

Ask the two or three hundred thousand people that, every year, go and see him perform.

>I know your lengthy post was meant as some sort of laying to rest any and all criticisms of Alice but it actually goes a long way to proving the discerning Alice fan correct.

That is a huge assumption on your part. Is that really what he wrote? It was actually a good summary of the current situation and the reason for that is because what cooperrocks wrote was based on the reality at this stage of Alice's career. I don't understand why anyone would think we live in a world where someone can be the same artist in 2015 that they were in 1973 - it's nonsense.

[mr.barlow]

There are many who have a hard to coming to terms with the changes that come with time and aging.

They want it forever to be 1972, 1986, or 2000. The problem is it's not. Not only has the world changed but so have the people.

The reason Alice has been able to succeed for nearly 50 years is that he knew that things change constantly. He never looks back and is always looking ahead. He is very adept at transitioning into current trends. I think however at this point in his career and his advancing age and the drastic changes in the music industry he cares not to try and fit in anymore.


It's time for young artists to have their chance and to give their generations their voice. Trust me--Alice Cooper could release the best album of his career next year and he would not become relevant to today's music buying public. He is an old man in a young man's game. Does anyone on here really think that Alice could connect with the 16-25 years old of today? He knows this, embraces it and enjoys it. He is content. He IS a music legend. Now it's time for some new artists to hopefully step up and become a legend to their generation.

[Swinger]

It's time for young artists to have their chance and to give their generations their voice. Trust me--Alice Cooper could release the best album of his career next year and he would not become relevant to today's music buying public. He is an old man in a young man's game. Does anyone on here really think that Alice could connect with the 16-25 years old of today? He knows this, embraces it and enjoys it. He is content. He IS a music legend. Now it's time for some new artists to hopefully step up and become a legend to their generation.

In a way I would actually argue that being content with being a music legend is precisely why 16-25 year olds today could connect to Alice. I'm not saying that he is exactly relevant to the general record buying public or that he could ever have a major hit again but if you're young and want to check out a music legend he is kind of a perfect example. He does his own thing, good I might add, and seems to enjoy doing it.

I'm 24 and I got into Alice somewhere between Eyes and Dirty Diamonds (at age 14-15) and one of the main reasons was simply that I was into classic rock (the first band I saw in concert was Deep Purple in 2003). I had some friends who liked Brutal Planet and Dragontown for the nu-metal sound but didn't care for the rest of Alices albums while I ended up loving all it. I've seen him live four times over the years ('05,'09,'10,'11. I'll also see him this summer hopefully) and I've never been bored or disappointed at a show. And while some might, perhaps rightfully so, think the show's got a bit stale or too content over the years I'll take it because I came into the fandom late and I want to see him live a few times more before it's over.

[Daggers & Contracts]

I'm not saying that he is exactly relevant to the general record buying public or that he could ever have a major hit again but if you're young and want to check out a music legend he is kind of a perfect example. He does his own thing, good I might add, and seems to enjoy doing it.

To a point I agree, in the mid-80's I had already experienced the Special Forces tour and I had embraced a local Blues band (The Nighthawks) & was exploring & loving that genre. About that time SRV came upon the scene and I had the opportunity to see B.B. King in a small club in D.C. that SRV had also played in. I felt sure that this "old" large Bluesman wouldn't be around much longer. Thankfully, I was wrong & it was one of the most intimate shows I have ever seen. That's what a legend can provide to an audience of people that really don't know a lot of their material. When you leave a B.B. King show you've got "Da Blues!" In a good way I might add.