Never Been Sold Before

[rtbuck]

I was just curious what everyone thinks about this tune.... As I posted before...I got into Alice Cooper with the release of the Alice Cooper Show. After this I became a fan and had to buy all of his albums(although I found Love it to Death in my house(thanks to my older sister)) Anyway... I thought I had all of his albums until I went to a used record shop and found Muscle of Love on cassette. It wasn't a normal case that you open it was like a shell that the tape slid into. I never knew about this album so I don't know if it was out of print during the late 70's but I really liked the album. Never Been Sold Before was my favourite tune and at that time it became one of my favorite Cooper tunes . I never see or hear too much about the tune and I don't think Alice Cooper ever performed it live so I just figured I'd bring the song up. I don't really care for the demo version on Old School but it was interesting

[Daggers & Contracts]

I was just curious what everyone thinks about this tune.... As I posted before...I got into Alice Cooper with the release of the Alice Cooper Show. After this I became a fan and had to buy all of his albums(although I found Love it to Death in my house(thanks to my older sister)) Anyway... I thought I had all of his albums until I went to a used record shop and found Muscle of Love on cassette. It wasn't a normal case that you open it was like a shell that the tape slid into. I never knew about this album so I don't know if it was out of print during the late 70's but I really liked the album. Never Been Sold Before was my favourite tune and at that time it became one of my favorite Cooper tunes . I never see or hear too much about the tune and I don't think Alice Cooper ever performed it live so I just figured I'd bring the song up. I don't really care for the demo version on Old School but it was interesting

Great tune! One of the best Rockers on the Lp. Yeah, that's my 1st vinyl ACG Lp, bought Teenage Lament '74 (Hard Hearted Alice B-Side) because of radio airplay. Then I went & found the rest!

[VinceRaven]

I like it, although the fadeout is far too long.

With regards to Muscle of Love, I always ponder what the songs are on this album that Alice professes to strongly disliking. The fact he's never done this live hints that it may be one of them. Then again, it's used in the opening credits of Good To See You Again Alice Cooper and it's not easy to think of a live set it would slip into, perhaps with the exception of the Trash tour.

[concolz]

Solid intro, Alice in fine voice, band are rocking, catchy melody. Outstays its welcome though. Instead of fading at the three minute mark, allowed to plod on pointlessly; ends with a whimper, not a bang.

[A_MichaelUK]

From VinceRaven?
"I always ponder what the songs are on this album that Alice professes to strongly disliking."

When did he say that?

[jacknifejohnny]

Love that song, love that album.

[VinceRaven]

From VinceRaven?
"I always ponder what the songs are on this album that Alice professes to strongly disliking."

When did he say that?

I've got a shocking memory so I'm struggling here, but I remember a video clip of him saying that (if I remember correctly) there were two or three songs on the album he really didn't like. For some reason I'm thinking it was on one of the Old School discs, but that would seem unlikely as you possibly had to watch that content quite a few times and so wouldn't have asked the question.

I'll give it a bit more thought. Despite being a long term fan, I don't have a massive archive of visual stuff, so hopefully I'll actually put my finger on it soon.

[mr.barlow]

Although I always liked the Muscle Of Love album, I always thought that it was a step backwards for the band. Welcome To My Nightmare sounded more like a natural progression after Billion Dollar Babies. You can definitely feel the lack of Ezrin in all aspects of the album--especially the songwriting. With the release of Welcome To My Nightmare it becomes very clear the amount of influence Ezrin had in the writing of Billion Dollar Babies. B$B took the band to a different level--when MOL came out you can see that it was a step down. Again--I love a lot of the songs on the album--my favorite being "Big Apple Dreamin" and I think that song benefits greatly from Dick Wagner.

In retropect it's now easy to see the different visions the different factions had for the band. I think the original band got their wish of their vision with the direction and style of Muscle Of Love. Alice saw the future and the possibilities with Ezrin.

The diffencees in the two are quite dramatic. Just listen to MOL and WTMN back to back and it's quite obvious who made the right choice of direction. Also, listen to B$B and WTMN back to back and you will hear how they nearly flawlessly blend together. A beautiful progression in sound and style. Then listen to MOL and it really sounds like a big step backward---not even treading water--but a step back. I never read or heard of Alice ever really speaking bad of the album or it's songs--but I can understand that it was probably not a very pleasant album for him to make. To me it was a half-assed effort--a good album--but half-assed. I always joked that they should have changed the one song title to "Half-Hearted Alice" as I truly believe his heart was not in making the album. He saw the bigger picture and wanted to move on to bigger things--and eventually did with Ezrin and Welcome To My Nightmare.

[pitkin88]

Although I always liked the Muscle Of Love album, I always thought that it was a step backwards for the band. Welcome To My Nightmare sounded more like a natural progression after Billion Dollar Babies. You can definitely feel the lack of Ezrin in all aspects of the album--especially the songwriting. With the release of Welcome To My Nightmare it becomes very clear the amount of influence Ezrin had in the writing of Billion Dollar Babies. B$B took the band to a different level--when MOL came out you can see that it was a step down. Again--I love a lot of the songs on the album--my favorite being "Big Apple Dreamin" and I think that song benefits greatly from Dick Wagner.

In retropect it's now easy to see the different visions the different factions had for the band. I think the original band got their wish of their vision with the direction and style of Muscle Of Love. Alice saw the future and the possibilities with Ezrin.

The diffencees in the two are quite dramatic. Just listen to MOL and WTMN back to back and it's quite obvious who made the right choice of direction. Also, listen to B$B and WTMN back to back and you will hear how they nearly flawlessly blend together. A beautiful progression in sound and style. Then listen to MOL and it really sounds like a big step backward---not even treading water--but a step back. I never read or heard of Alice ever really speaking bad of the album or it's songs--but I can understand that it was probably not a very pleasant album for him to make. To me it was a half-assed effort--a good album--but half-assed. I always joked that they should have changed the one song title to "Half-Hearted Alice" as I truly believe his heart was not in making the album. He saw the bigger picture and wanted to move on to bigger things--and eventually did with Ezrin and Welcome To My Nightmare.

I believe Ezrin only had a hand in writing two songs on Billion Dollar Babies and one of those he bought with Alice from Dick Wagner. Hardly a major influence. Michael was the main writer along with Alice not Bob. That's not to say Ezrin wasn't tremendously important but at that point he hadn't written any songs.

Are you saying that Alice was not involved with the vision of Muscle Of Love? It was a band concept as where all the albums.I don't believe Alice has ever said the album wasn't pleasurable to make either.

Again we see from you the over importance of Dick Wagner. He is a great player as was Hunter but they were just session men. Hired hands. They played NO part in the concept of any Alice Cooper albums but you seem to be implying that a song is somehow saved by Wagner.
The classic Cooper songs existed because of Cooper/Bruce/Buxton/Dunaway and Smith. Wagner and Hunter added to but did not create a song. It's a bit like this fake hysteria how wonderful the intro to Sweet Jane is. It's almost like it's better than the song itself which is complete nonsense.

I don't believe Muscle Of Love is a great album. It's a good album but disappointing after Billion Dollar Babies. A bit like Goes To Hell which is very disappointing after Welcome To My Nightmare. I also don't buy that the album is a half assed effort either. Alice's lyrics are top notch. Michael and Mick's solos on Hard Hearted Alice are terrific too. In truth they rushed into the studio too quick after the hectic schedule they had been on for years.

It's a good job Bob D is banned as you seem to be engineering another band v Alice debate which has been well and truly done to death.

[steven_crayn]

Bob had co written Under My Wheels, My Stars and Grand Finale prior to the Billion Dollar Babies album so for you to say he hadn't written anything at that point is factually inaccurate (no surprise there then!).

The way you dismiss record production as not being a major influence is a joke, even Alice who I know you original band sycophants dismiss as not being very important, has said it was Ezrin who reconstructed their sound taught them how to write and play in a more structured way. Listen to the progression from Easy Action to Love It To Death it's massive not that the likes of you and Bobby D would ever admit to how much the band needed Ezrin and would not have been what they became without him.

The only one engineering an Alice v original band debate is you as usual.

[patrick]

From VinceRaven?
"I always ponder what the songs are on this album that Alice professes to strongly disliking."

When did he say that?

Couldn't it be that Alice was talking about some of the Trash stuff, rather than Mol ?

[A_MichaelUK]

From VinceRaven:
"I've got a shocking memory so I'm struggling here, but I remember a video clip of him saying that (if I remember correctly) there were two or three songs on the album he really didn't like."

That is quite different from having a "strong disliking" though. There is no doubt he doesn't think it's a great album (he thinks it's fairly good but not great) and that it reflects some of the problems the band was going through at that time but again, that's quite different from your wording.

>I'm thinking it was on one of the Old School discs,

Yes, he does talk about it there.

[A_MichaelUK]

I believe Ezrin only had a hand in writing two songs on Billion Dollar Babies and one of those he bought with Alice from Dick Wagner. Hardly a major influence.

Unfortunately, you're making the mistake of believing everything the credits tell or don't tell you (which would not be your fault if it wasn't for the fact you're one of the older members here). Just because someone's name is not on the credits does not denote a lack of "influence" - that would be like saying Elvis Presley helped write all the songs his name appears on as a writer. By today's standards, a producer like Ezrin would have even more song - writing credits than he got during the making of those albums. It isn't that you're wrong - I'm just saying you can't assume the credits tell you everything.

>Michael was the main writer along with Alice

Maybe on about half of the songs.

>That's not to say Ezrin wasn't tremendously important but at that point he hadn't written any songs.

Obviously that's false as has been pointed out.

>Are you saying that Alice was not involved with the vision of Muscle Of Love?

Yes, I think he is and he's right. Alice did not want to make an album without Ezrin. I also think he wanted to continue with a more theatrical musical style (as "Welcome To My Nightmare" showed) whereas Michael Bruce certainly did not.

> It was a band concept as where all the albums.

Again, you see things as black or white and don't seem to understand the nuance in the situation. I am slightly surprised that you haven't quite grasped the shift in power that the album represented. It was an attempt by Michael (if not Dennis and Neal also) to wrest back control from Alice and Ezrin. This has been discussed many times before. Alice went along with it but I don't think it can be said that he did it with enthusiasm. Go back and watch "Behind The Music" or "Super Duper Alice Cooper" - it's all there.

>The classic Cooper songs existed because of Cooper/Bruce/Buxton/Dunaway and Smith.

Bob Ezrin as well.

>I don't believe Muscle Of Love is a great album. It's a good album but disappointing after Billion Dollar Babies.

I completely agree. I think Alice would too.

> I also don't buy that the album is a half assed effort either.

It depends on how you define that. Nobody is saying that nobody (apart from Glen) worked hard on it. The issue is whether it is considered one of the "great" albums. We agree that it is not.

> In truth they rushed into the studio too quick after the hectic schedule they had been on for years.

I definitely agree.

[concolz]

It's all down to personal taste/opinion of course, but, for me, the 'problem' with 'NBSB', and much of 'MOL' as a whole, is too much repetition of an idea, and/or not enough compositional development.

If the Coopers were tired, fractious and fed up, it doesn't really show on the surface. Alice's vocals sound fine, the band (and 'helpers') are rocking, plus the lyrics - with the exception of 'Woman Machine' - are pretty inventive. Yet it lacks the cohesive magic and sparkle of the previous quartet; a 'good' album instead of an 'excellent' one.

Hindsight's a wonderful thing, but Bob Ezrin might have made all the difference, by pruning away the flab on track endings like 'NBSB' and 'Teenage Lament', cajoling ACG into further developing ideas on 'Big Apple' and 'Hard Hearted Alice' - so that they became mini-epics - plus getting them to dump 'Woman Machine' and write another song! But then if some of the group weren't prepared to subjugate their egos for the 'greater good', then that wouldn't have worked out anyway. So, it is what it is, due to 'circumstances'.

[rtbuck]

I do definitely agree with everyone who says that the ending of NBSB drags on...but I really love the song

As I said earlier I don't know if Muscle of Love was Out of print for a while during the late 70's because I never seen it at any record stores in the Buffalo area and I went to many record stores back then. Probably around 1980 or so a flow of Muscle of Love appeared in the cutout bins for$2.99 so naturally I bought one and while the cardboard box was strange(it reminded me of the boxes that records came in from Columbia House record clubs) I thought the sleeve and the book cover were pretty cool and told kind of story. I read or seen somewhere recently that the band had been working on Woman Machine and had high hopes for it so I was wondering if there was a different mix because while I like the song I never seen anything special about it. I will say that the title track Muscle of Love really shocked me because I was listening to the cassette and reading the song titles and I figured Muscle of Love was going to be a ballad but wow I was blown away!

[pitkin88]

Bob had co written Under My Wheels, My Stars and Grand Finale prior to the Billion Dollar Babies album so for you to say he hadn't written anything at that point is factually inaccurate (no surprise there then!).

The way you dismiss record production as not being a major influence is a joke, even Alice who I know you original band sycophants dismiss as not being very important, has said it was Ezrin who reconstructed their sound taught them how to write and play in a more structured way. Listen to the progression from Easy Action to Love It To Death it's massive not that the likes of you and Bobby D would ever admit to how much the band needed Ezrin and would not have been what they became without him.

The only one engineering an Alice v original band debate is you as usual.

Co writing a song is a bit different to bringing a song to the table. Two co writes and an instrumental is hardly the new Michael Bruce. Where did I dismiss his production? Ezrin would never have been what he became without the band. Say hi to Kate Moss for me Mr Angry.

[A_MichaelUK]

From pitkin88:
"Co writing a song is a bit different to bringing a song to the table."

Really? In that case, the songs on the first few albums by The Beatles must be worthless then. What an extraordinary statement you made and how odd that someone so passionate about music as you are would be so wrong about something so fundamental. What if the song that was brought "to the table" wasn't very good?! If you think Michael always brought finished songs "to the table" then you really haven't learned anything about the collaborative nature of the band. Again, credits don't always tell the whole story.

>Two co writes and an instrumental is hardly the new Michael Bruce. Where did I dismiss his production?

Again, you're completely missing the point. If you think all Ezrin did was record the songs, you're completely under - estimating his contributions in relation to arrangements and compositions in the same way that Dennis Dunaway didn't get all the credit he deserved either. Again, you're basing your statements on the credits as they appear rather than judging it on the way the band (and many others) actually worked.

>Ezrin would never have been what he became without the band.

I disagree. I think eventually he would have had some artistic success with other artists. I would argue that back then, there were more artists looking for producers than producers looking for someone to produce.

[recoop]

Well I like Never BSB- nice n sleazy- In fact the only MOL tracks that I am not keen on are Woman Machine and especially Man with the Golden Gun (something unfinished about it for me)- Album stands up well over 40 years later

[mr.barlow]

Well I like Never BSB- nice n sleazy- In fact the only MOL tracks that I am not keen on are Woman Machine and especially Man with the Golden Gun (something unfinished about it for me)- Album stands up well over 40 years later

I often wondered if the reason "The Man With The Golden Gun" was not selected as the James Bond movie theme had more to do with the situation with the state of the band than the reasons stated by Alice.

Even if the public was not aware of the severity of the rancor within the band, it would have been very well known inside the industry.

I'm sure the producers and the studio had to take this into consideration when choosing the song for the theme. The song, if it was chosen, would have generated a lot of interest and would have been pushed heavily as a single and quite likely it would have been a hit. I'm thinking that the producers of the Bond film may not have wanted to have their theme song from an immensley popular band that was in the midst of a bitter break up. It was easier for them just to stay away and pick another song and not have to deal with the negativity of it all.

The song has all the elements of perfect James Bond theme and was a perfect fit for that film. It's a shame they passed on it.

[mr.barlow]

Although I always liked the Muscle Of Love album, I always thought that it was a step backwards for the band. Welcome To My Nightmare sounded more like a natural progression after Billion Dollar Babies. You can definitely feel the lack of Ezrin in all aspects of the album--especially the songwriting. With the release of Welcome To My Nightmare it becomes very clear the amount of influence Ezrin had in the writing of Billion Dollar Babies. B$B took the band to a different level--when MOL came out you can see that it was a step down. Again--I love a lot of the songs on the album--my favorite being "Big Apple Dreamin" and I think that song benefits greatly from Dick Wagner.

In retropect it's now easy to see the different visions the different factions had for the band. I think the original band got their wish of their vision with the direction and style of Muscle Of Love. Alice saw the future and the possibilities with Ezrin.

The diffencees in the two are quite dramatic. Just listen to MOL and WTMN back to back and it's quite obvious who made the right choice of direction. Also, listen to B$B and WTMN back to back and you will hear how they nearly flawlessly blend together. A beautiful progression in sound and style. Then listen to MOL and it really sounds like a big step backward---not even treading water--but a step back. I never read or heard of Alice ever really speaking bad of the album or it's songs--but I can understand that it was probably not a very pleasant album for him to make. To me it was a half-assed effort--a good album--but half-assed. I always joked that they should have changed the one song title to "Half-Hearted Alice" as I truly believe his heart was not in making the album. He saw the bigger picture and wanted to move on to bigger things--and eventually did with Ezrin and Welcome To My Nightmare.

I believe Ezrin only had a hand in writing two songs on Billion Dollar Babies and one of those he bought with Alice from Dick Wagner. Hardly a major influence. Michael was the main writer along with Alice not Bob. That's not to say Ezrin wasn't tremendously important but at that point he hadn't written any songs.

Are you saying that Alice was not involved with the vision of Muscle Of Love? It was a band concept as where all the albums.I don't believe Alice has ever said the album wasn't pleasurable to make either.

Again we see from you the over importance of Dick Wagner. He is a great player as was Hunter but they were just session men. Hired hands. They played NO part in the concept of any Alice Cooper albums but you seem to be implying that a song is somehow saved by Wagner.
The classic Cooper songs existed because of Cooper/Bruce/Buxton/Dunaway and Smith. Wagner and Hunter added to but did not create a song. It's a bit like this fake hysteria how wonderful the intro to Sweet Jane is. It's almost like it's better than the song itself which is complete nonsense.

I don't believe Muscle Of Love is a great album. It's a good album but disappointing after Billion Dollar Babies. A bit like Goes To Hell which is very disappointing after Welcome To My Nightmare. I also don't buy that the album is a half assed effort either. Alice's lyrics are top notch. Michael and Mick's solos on Hard Hearted Alice are terrific too. In truth they rushed into the studio too quick after the hectic schedule they had been on for years.

It's a good job Bob D is banned as you seem to be engineering another band v Alice debate which has been well and truly done to death.

The fact alone that Hunter and Wagner were brought in as "hired guns" is proof enough to show the influence that Ezrin had over the development of the songs. The reason these guys were hired were so that Ezrin was able to achive the sound that HE wanted for the songs/albums.

I can see that you are knowledgable when it comes to music so I'm sure you understand that the arrangement of a song is just as imporatant as the song itself. In the days of the great jazz bands the arrangers were as imporatant and in some cases more well known that the songwriters. AND--were always given credit. The arrangements that Ezrin gave the songs were what made the band. What you hear, for the most part, was what EZRIN wanted---thus this led to the eventual problems within the band.

A good example of a great arrangement of a mediocre song would be Alice's version of "Seven & Seven Is" on SF. I'm not sure if Richard Podolor did the arrangement or someone in the band--maybe Duane Hitchings or Erik Scott--but it is light years superior to the original. The same could be said of "Talk Talk" on FTF.

At the very least, the styles of Wagner and Hunter heavily influenced the structure of the songs. They would not have been arranged the same way had it been Glen or anybody else playing the guitar parts. Writing songs is the easy part, making them into a #1 hit record is quite another.

My bet is that instead of taking song writing credit, Ezrin either got paid a hefty salary for producing those albums or worked another deal that was most likely more profitble than if he were to get a cut of the songwriting royalties.

I'm in no way trying to diminish Michael, Dennis, Neil or Glen's songwriting contributions--but without Ezrin it would have been a different story. This is very evident on Muscle Of Love. Also, just listen to the drastic difference between the first two albums and LITD. Also, from MOL to WTMN--the difference was Ezrin.

As far as Alice lyrics are concerned, it seems no matter what the situation he is always capable of turning in some top notch stuff. Dada was his ultimate low point personally and his career was near non-existent and yet it contains his best ever lyrics. The only time I ever felt let down by Alice's lyrics was with Constrictor and Trash but I think in those cases they were "dumbed down" on purpose.

As far as Alice and MOL, you're right in saying that Alice never said it was not pleasureable to make the album. In fact I've never heard Alice ever bad mouth any of his albums. But knowing the situation that was unfolding at the time and the bitterness and rancor that was going on it would be safe to say that it was not a happy time for Alice---or the band. You are also right in saying they were rushed into the studio and rushed the album (I think this was to fulfill the requirements of the WB contract) and who knows--if they took a few months off maybe things would have turned out differently.

Contrary to what you may think, the last thing in the world I want to do is to again bring up the dead horse of the break-up. I'm simply stating my opinions on MOL, which happens to be the album where it all fell apart.