Never Been Sold Before

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Re: Never Been Sold Before

Post by Toronto Bob » Thu Nov 06, 2014 11:35 pm

I agree with some of the points brought up about NBSB. Good tune that could of used some editing, too repetitive. Not wild about the sweetener either.

As far as the MoL album goes, again I agree, good album, I enjoy it but not a great album. It was my second ACG album, BDB being my first, and yes it came off as a weak sister next to the mega BDB. Since I'm old and think of albums as Side 1 and Side 2 with song sequencing almost an art, I thought MoL works better with the sides reversed. Open up with the high energy songs WUAS and MoL, go into the 2 single oriented songs and finish the side with the heavy, lazy riff of WM. Open side 2 with the epic like BAD (similar to opening Side 2 of SO with My Stars) next the sleazy NBSB, the mini-epic HHA and finishing with the quirky CLC with that final hi-hat hit that would close the album.

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Re: Never Been Sold Before

Post by Mr.Bluelegs » Thu Nov 06, 2014 11:46 pm

Love the MOL album, but the production was a bit weak In spots. Title track, although a killer tune, would have been heavier under Ezrin. The amazing playing by Neal is diminished by the weak-sounding drum sound. Compare BDB (song) to MOL (song) and you'll notice a huge difference in the drum levels & sounds. Lift the faders on it! Many felt the BDB album was overproduced or slick, but actually, it was perfect for its time. Right balance of shock and commercialism which put them at the top of the charts. Back to MOL, Teenage Lament sounded great (maybe the best production on the LP). As mentioned, they should've taken a break before MOL, but the business was different back then. If you were away too long, someone else would come along and steal your thunder. 5 albums and numerous tours from '71-'73, yes, they needed a break.

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Re: Never Been Sold Before

Post by mr.barlow » Thu Nov 06, 2014 11:51 pm

Toronto Bob wrote:I agree with some of the points brought up about NBSB. Good tune that could of used some editing, too repetitive. Not wild about the sweetener either.

As far as the MoL album goes, again I agree, good album, I enjoy it but not a great album. It was my second ACG album, BDB being my first, and yes it came off as a weak sister next to the mega BDB. Since I'm old and think of albums as Side 1 and Side 2 with song sequencing almost an art, I thought MoL works better with the sides reversed. Open up with the high energy songs WUAS and MoL, go into the 2 single oriented songs and finish the side with the heavy, lazy riff of WM. Open side 2 with the epic like BAD (similar to opening Side 2 of SO with My Stars) next the sleazy NBSB, the mini-epic HHA and finishing with the quirky CLC with that final hi-hat hit that would close the album.
I agree completley with your song sequencing for Muscle Of Love. I too, being around before the birth of the cd still look at albums as Side 1 & Side 2, and agree about the importance of the sequence of the song. I would put that in the "arranging" department. This is a great point hat also adds to the brilliance of Ezrin. The song sequencing on ALL of the albums he produced for Alice both the band and solo was nearly flawless.

I think that MOL turned out the way it did for quite a few reasons--namely the absence of Ezrin, but in the end it is a pretty good album.

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Re: Never Been Sold Before

Post by ThePainAddict » Fri Nov 07, 2014 1:02 am

I am probably the only one, but I prefer MoL over WtMN, although I definitely feel like the production on WtMN was far superior and it is a much more epic lp. Of course, I also think SO is better than B$B in the same way.
I view MoL very much like Battle Axe, in both of which I hear so much potential, but missed opportunity. Nevertheless, I like the core of many of the songs on both lps. Of course, the production on MoL is majestic compared to the dismal quality of BA.

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Re: Never Been Sold Before

Post by VinceRaven » Fri Nov 07, 2014 10:33 am

Toronto Bob wrote:I agree with some of the points brought up about NBSB. Good tune that could of used some editing, too repetitive. Not wild about the sweetener either.

As far as the MoL album goes, again I agree, good album, I enjoy it but not a great album. It was my second ACG album, BDB being my first, and yes it came off as a weak sister next to the mega BDB. Since I'm old and think of albums as Side 1 and Side 2 with song sequencing almost an art, I thought MoL works better with the sides reversed. Open up with the high energy songs WUAS and MoL, go into the 2 single oriented songs and finish the side with the heavy, lazy riff of WM. Open side 2 with the epic like BAD (similar to opening Side 2 of SO with My Stars) next the sleazy NBSB, the mini-epic HHA and finishing with the quirky CLC with that final hi-hat hit that would close the album.
Fascinating idea to swap the sides around and I think you're right. Would've sequenced the whole thing far better.

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Re: Never Been Sold Before

Post by Mr. Skull » Fri Nov 07, 2014 2:47 pm

ThePainAddict wrote:I am probably the only one, but I prefer MoL over WtMN, although I definitely feel like the production on WtMN was far superior and it is a much more epic lp. Of course, I also think SO is better than B$B in the same way.
I view MoL very much like Battle Axe, in both of which I hear so much potential, but missed opportunity. Nevertheless, I like the core of many of the songs on both lps. Of course, the production on MoL is majestic compared to the dismal quality of BA.
The production of WTMN was far more in line with BDB then with MOL. But I give more spins to MOL also.

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Re: Never Been Sold Before

Post by patrick » Fri Nov 07, 2014 8:20 pm

Never been sold before is also one of my favourite tunes. And although I know WTMNM is generaly aknowledged to be a great album- and I like it a lot- I also listen more frequently to MOL .
Big apple dreaming is a great opener for this album, imho to be compared with the opener for BDB (HH) .
you really wouldn't understand..

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Re: Never Been Sold Before

Post by tuneylune » Sat Nov 08, 2014 10:57 am

rtbuck wrote:I do definitely agree with everyone who says that the ending of NBSB drags on...but I really love the song

As I said earlier I don't know if Muscle of Love was Out of print for a while during the late 70's because I never seen it at any record stores in the Buffalo area and I went to many record stores back then. Probably around 1980 or so a flow of Muscle of Love appeared in the cutout bins for$2.99 so naturally I bought one and while the cardboard box was strange(it reminded me of the boxes that records came in from Columbia House record clubs) I thought the sleeve and the book cover were pretty cool and told kind of story. I read or seen somewhere recently that the band had been working on Woman Machine and had high hopes for it so I was wondering if there was a different mix because while I like the song I never seen anything special about it. I will say that the title track Muscle of Love really shocked me because I was listening to the cassette and reading the song titles and I figured Muscle of Love was going to be a ballad but wow I was blown away!
Ditto...I love NBSB, one of my top five Cooper songs. Really like the horns on it.
Think MOL is a great album as well, but surely would have been better if they had taken a break and had Bob Ezrin on board, but obviously this did not happen, so MOL is what it is.
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Re: Never Been Sold Before

Post by Toronto Bob » Sat Nov 08, 2014 11:10 am

rtbuck wrote:
As I said earlier I don't know if Muscle of Love was Out of print for a while during the late 70's because I never seen it at any record stores in the Buffalo area and I went to many record stores back then. Probably around 1980 or so a flow of Muscle of Love appeared in the cutout bins for$2.99
same here, got my copy of MoL around 1978 in a delete bin for $2.99 but my copy was the single sleeve non-box version. Years later a used record store had a clutch of still sealed Box versions of MoL and I scooped one of those up for a reasonable $10. Gave my old version to my cousin.

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Re: Never Been Sold Before

Post by Daggers & Contracts » Sun Nov 09, 2014 1:27 am

[quote="Toronto Bob"][quote="rtbuck"]stop Ezrin Hatin! he was the Best thing to happen to the band!BAND! :8):
I've Got The Answers To All Of Your Questions...

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Re: Never Been Sold Before

Post by Babysquid » Sun Nov 09, 2014 7:44 am

Daggers & Contracts wrote:
Toronto Bob wrote:
rtbuck wrote:stop Ezrin Hatin! he was the Best thing to happen to the band!BAND! :8):
Whilst I have a great deal of affection for the first two albums I strongly believe that had the band not been teamed with Bob Ezrin we wouldn't be posting on this forum today.
However regarding Mr Barlow's earlier comments I'd be surprised if he was solely responsible for the arrangement of the original bands music. While his influence is undoubtable I'm sure the band had plenty of input.
As for him taking salary over songwriting credit I think it's more a case of he was a producer and he did his job, making the best records he could with what was available to him in the allotted time period. It should be noted that, and I'm speaking broadly here, arrangement is not the same as songwriting. Eric Clapton can play Layla without it's signature riff and it's still Layla. A good example of what arrangement and the production process can do to a song can be heard by comparing the demo and final versions of NBSB.
And finally regarding the omission of Man With The Golden Gun from the film soundtrack, I think this was more a case that the filmmakers never commissioned the band to provide the theme.

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Re: Never Been Sold Before

Post by A_MichaelUK » Sun Nov 09, 2014 10:31 am

From Babysquid:
"Whilst I have a great deal of affection for the first two albums I strongly believe that had the band not been teamed with Bob Ezrin we wouldn't be posting on this forum today."

Exactly.

>However regarding Mr Barlow's earlier comments I'd be surprised if he was solely responsible for the arrangement of the original bands music. While his influence is undoubtable I'm sure the band had plenty of input.

Exactly. However, Ezrin was the final arbiter and the at least some of the conflict between him and Michael Bruce was a consequence of that.

>As for him taking salary over songwriting credit

I doubt that happened.

>I think it's more a case of he was a producer and he did his job, making the best records he could with what was available to him in the allotted time period. It should be noted that, and I'm speaking broadly here, arrangement is not the same as songwriting.

I completely agree primarily because you've reiterated that which I already wrote. However and again, what Ezrin did might be considered as composing, not just because of what he added but because of what he removed. Your first sentence encapsulated that.

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Re: Never Been Sold Before

Post by GailsFriend » Thu Nov 13, 2014 5:52 am

What is really cracking me up is the fact that everyone is talking about editing, production, and band drama when, in fact, the SONG is really the focus here.....the song is fantastic. Period. From beginning to end. Why?....that fantastic riff in the beginning!!! It carries the entire song. The lyrics....are flawless....I have YET to see a better song about male prostitution....ever! The actual production is great because it gives it that dirty, messy feel....which is PERFECT for a song about MALE PROSTITUTION.


All you gotta do is put this song on and turn it up to 11, really. Just do it.
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Re: Never Been Sold Before

Post by recoop » Thu Nov 13, 2014 8:43 am

Hi Gails Friend- I must admit I was surprised that you are so definite it is about Male Prostitution rather than female or male- perhaps you could say a little more to give your reasoning.Thanks
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Re: Never Been Sold Before

Post by GailsFriend » Thu Nov 13, 2014 5:30 pm

Alice Cooper is the master of many disguises....a male prostitute is just one. He has also been a cross dressing gun slinger, a necrophiliac, a murderer, hopeless alcoholic, sex fiend and tortured child....really the list goes on and on....just read the lyrics....it's all there.
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Re: Never Been Sold Before

Post by recoop » Thu Nov 13, 2014 7:37 pm

HI Gails Friend- I have read the lyrics and don't see anything conclusive as to the gender of the prostitute as you put it- As you say Alice plays many parts and I cannot seeing anything definitive here re gender in the lyrics- unless there is something specific in the lyrics that you can point to- We all have our different takes on things but cannot see/hear anything gender specific in the character in the song. I think Alice and many songwriters leave these sort of things open. Just like I Never Wrote those Songs isnt Alice necessarily saying he didnt write the songs- but if you got something specific in the lyrics I am happy to have a look etc Cheers
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Re: Never Been Sold Before

Post by A_MichaelUK » Thu Nov 13, 2014 7:50 pm

From Gailsfriend:
"just read the lyrics"

One of the lines indicates the protagonist is female.

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Re: Never Been Sold Before

Post by recoop » Thu Nov 13, 2014 8:28 pm

A_MichaelUK wrote:From Gailsfriend:
"just read the lyrics"

One of the lines indicates the protagonist is female.
I was keeping it neutral in case there was another bi gender meaning to "stacked nice" if that is what you refer to (if so agree more related generally to females in the more sexist 70s)-didnt think it was necessarily a male prostitute but wanted to see evidence for it from GF in case there is something I have missed for 40 yrs
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Re: Never Been Sold Before

Post by A_MichaelUK » Thu Nov 13, 2014 9:54 pm

From recoop:
"if that is what you refer to"

Yes.

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Re: Never Been Sold Before

Post by GailsFriend » Sun Nov 16, 2014 5:20 am

BlahblahblahblahboringzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzNEXT!
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