"Alice wouldn't do that, he would do this."

[darkmenace]

Alice has said many times that he looks at his stage persona as a character that would do certain things and not others. Most of what Alice did during his glory years of the 70s was right on the money...obviously. He became a sensation.

But I have often disagreed with his perception of what the "character" should and shouldn't do, or what works and doesn't work. For example the stumbling, drunk Alice of the early 70s was perfect, it feigned a realism that created mystique.

There are things Alice has done over the years that I believe diminish the onstage persona and I wondered if other people had their views on what the character Alice does that enhances his persona and what doesn't.

The dancing routine with skeletons was too showbiz and scripted for the Alice persona even though it's a cool song. I also think the patriotic displays of saluting the flag go against the rebellious, indifferent nature of the character. Fine for Vince, bad for Alice.

Those are just two and wondered if others had other ideas.

[A_MichaelUK]

From darkmenace:
For example the stumbling, drunk Alice of the early 70s was perfect, it feigned a realism that created mystique.

That wasn't "feigned"!

>I also think the patriotic displays of saluting the flag go against the rebellious, indifferent nature of the character. Fine for Vince, bad for Alice.

No, it was perfect. The most overtly all - American character which represented the most all - American cultural values would definitely salute it.

>Those are just two and wondered if others had other ideas

It has to be those chickens.

[mr.barlow]

From darkmenace:
For example the stumbling, drunk Alice of the early 70s was perfect, it feigned a realism that created mystique.

That wasn't "feigned"!

>I also think the patriotic displays of saluting the flag go against the rebellious, indifferent nature of the character. Fine for Vince, bad for Alice.

No, it was perfect. The most overtly all - American character which represented the most all - American cultural values would definitely salute it.

>Those are just two and wondered if others had other ideas

It has to be those chickens.

Leave the chickens alone! It was brilliant in a absolutely drunken ridiculous Dali-esque way.

[mr.barlow]

I think the whole Maurice Escargot thing and Lace & Whiskey did some harm at the time, but Alice wisely corrected with FTI and the Madhouse Rock tour.

It must be understood that as Alice the person evolved so did the character. It changed with the times. The drunken Alice of the 1970s would not have worked in the 1980s nor would it work today. The reason Alice was able to have the career that he had was that he kept the character fresh--always changing it--sometime subtley and other times dramaticly. Sometimes it worked--sometimes it didn't--but it was always uniquely Alice and original.

The only time I didn't like the character change was with "hair metal" Alice as with that he lost his originality. He was just like all of the other hair metal bands at the time. Granted he still had a bit of the Alice edge but musically and style wise he was just another walking can of hair spray. But that being said---he had tremendous success with it. So even though I hate it--it worked for him and his decision was the right one.

In a career that has spanned as long as Alice's you will find many missteps--but what makes Alice great is that he always recovered from those mistakes and then went on to even greater success. The proof of this is it's 2014 and he is still going!

[darkmenace]

Yes, what I meant by feigned is Alice said he liked to overact the drunk image because he knew the fans liked it.

I don't think the chickens was Dali-esque but too close to the showbiz direction Alice seemed to want to go at the time.

[mestreech]

The chickens were a commercial suicide. Shep should have stopped him.

[A_MichaelUK]

>Yes, what I meant by feigned is Alice said he liked to overact the drunk image because he knew the fans liked it.

It was less "feigned" than you think. Just because he claims he never drank during a show doesn't mean he wasn't already intoxicated at the start of the show.

[recoop]

Re the saluting of the flag, I always took that as being subversive myself...poking fun at All American patriotism/values in line with the BDB show

[dadascot]

Re the saluting of the flag, I always took that as being subversive myself...poking fun at All American patriotism/values in line with the BDB show

I have to agree with this. I thought the five different deaths on the TOD tour was just too much. Can't really think of too much else that looked out of place.

[TAC]

The only time I didn't like the character change was with "hair metal" Alice as with that he lost his originality. He was just like all of the other hair metal bands at the time. Granted he still had a bit of the Alice edge but musically and style wise he was just another walking can of hair spray. But that being said---he had tremendous success with it. So even though I hate it--it worked for him and his decision was the right one.

When was Alice "Hair Metal"? Maybe the Trash touring cycle, but that's really it. I get the influence "Hair Metal" had on the album, and on Alice's "Hair" for that tour, but the band had much more of a sleeze look and not very hair metal at all.

That tour had a great setlist, and some classic Alice moments, especially the Gutter Cats performance.

[ElectedPlus]

I was excited to hear about how the gallows were coming back for PsychoDrama, but I think it lost some of it's power when combined with the strait-jacket. It seemed to be the thing that helped achieve the effect, making it look more safe than dangerous.

That's a good example for something that didn't quite work for me ... but I can't think of any planned stage moments that seemed out of character for Alice that I've experienced live.

[darkmenace]

Re the saluting of the flag, I always took that as being subversive myself...poking fun at All American patriotism/values in line with the BDB show

I agree it was perfect in BDB show but just about everything since has been straightforward flag saluting.

[darkmenace]

>Yes, what I meant by feigned is Alice said he liked to overact the drunk image because he knew the fans liked it.

It was less "feigned" than you think. Just because he claims he never drank during a show doesn't mean he wasn't already intoxicated at the start of the show.

He overacted being drunk more often before he he went solo even though he was still drinking and perhaps more heavily. In WTMN and Silver Screen there are fewer of those instances when he would stumble around and act like he was drunk like he did on the "In Concert" show when he was singing "I'm Eighteen" and flaunting (or overacting) his drunkenness, showing off his bottle of beer more than once. Later when he went solo he seemed more interested in making the show look scripted which is consistent with what he was saying that he was an entertainer and it was showbiz.

[A_MichaelUK]

From darkmenace:
I agree it was perfect in BDB show but just about everything since has been straightforward flag saluting.

Are you able to give examples?

[A_MichaelUK]

From darkmenace:
He overacted being drunk more often before he he went solo even though he was still drinking and perhaps more heavily.

How do you know?

>In WTMN and Silver Screen there are fewer of those instances when he would stumble around and act like he was drunk like he did on the "In Concert" show when he was singing "I'm Eighteen"

Do you really think that? Have you seen the 1977 tour footage? Since you're singling out that one song, take another look at "I'm Eighteen" from the "Welcome To My Nightmare" film as well.

> Later when he went solo he seemed more interested in making the show look scripted which is consistent with what he was saying that he was an entertainer and it was showbiz.

He was still pretty drunk until 1977 though. Of course the earlier tours were more improvised compared to what came later and this allowed him to carry on drinking the way he did which kept his performance loose, but don't fool yourself into thinking that just because the other shows were more choreographed, the alcohol wasn't fuelling his stage performances on the solo tours and that it wasn't also reflected in his performances. He didn't have to "stumble around" for it to be noticed that he was still impaired.

[SkipTown]

Two cents:
Pertaining to Alice's stories and 'lies'.....

Alice isn't the only entertainer that embellishes events or stretches the truth. I think he simply wants to be entertaining when he comes up with those 'not really true' stories and comments....but there is a scarier part to that that has a universal truth for many in the public eye. That is - the underlying belief that the audience is stupid/naive and will believe almost anything you say. Politicians LIVE on that idea, but it is questionable whether or not an entertainer should do so. And perhaps(?) the current day Alice has come to believe some of the incorrect stuff he has said after many years...thus even a documentary movie might become tainted by un-truths that have slowly become real truths in the authors mind?????

[suziginajackson]

I also think the patriotic displays of saluting the flag go against the rebellious, indifferent nature of the character. Fine for Vince, bad for Alice.

No, it was perfect. The most overtly all - American character which represented the most all - American cultural values would definitely salute it.

Re the saluting of the flag, I always took that as being subversive myself...poking fun at All American patriotism/values in line with the BDB show

Indeed. Having a 'villain' like Alice showing is he is 'all-American' is incredibly subversive, in the same way that 'Forrest Gump' is now seen as being subversive and mocking America

[A_MichaelUK]

From SkipTown:
I think he simply wants to be entertaining when he comes up with those 'not really true' stories and comments....

Exactly. Finally, you're starting to understand.

>but there is a scarier part to that that has a universal truth for many in the public eye. That is - the underlying belief that the audience is stupid/naive and will believe almost anything you say.

I think the opposite is true. Alice has generally always assumed that most of the audience 'get the joke' or realise it's just sensationalism. Only the uneducated or the naive think everything they read or hear is true. Obviously he wanted parents and the authorities to be gullible but they weren't the ones buying concert tickets and albums. You are placing far too much emphasis and importance on stories which as you just said, are meant to be "entertaining".

>Politicians LIVE on that idea,

Who cares? He isn't a politician - he's a rock singer!

>but it is questionable whether or not an entertainer should do so.

I think it should be mandatory, if it makes him or her more interesting. The concern you're showing makes you sound like some of the critics from the seventies or the "Politicians" you referred to.

> And perhaps(?) the current day Alice has come to believe some of the incorrect stuff he has said after many years...thus even a documentary movie might become tainted by un-truths that have slowly become real truths in the authors mind?????

This is covered in the book that came with the deluxe edition of the documentary and we had endless discussions about this. In the book, two of the directors explain in some detail what their approach was in relation to dealing with 'the truth'. I definitely think he conflates events, for example, because when you've lived the kind of life that he has, everything becomes a blur and there are probably stories where even he doesn't know what really happened. The point here I think is that you seem to be implying there is a sinister motive behind all this. Do correct me if I'm wrong. I can't believe I really have to say this as I would assume it's obvious, but he's just a rock singer - he isn't asking you to trust him with your savings or something.

[SkipTown]

From SkipTown:
I think he simply wants to be entertaining when he comes up with those 'not really true' stories and comments....

Exactly. Finally, you're starting to understand.

>but there is a scarier part to that that has a universal truth for many in the public eye. That is - the underlying belief that the audience is stupid/naive and will believe almost anything you say.

I think the opposite is true. Alice has generally always assumed that most of the audience 'get the joke' or realise it's just sensationalism. Only the uneducated or the naive think everything they read or hear is true. Obviously he wanted parents and the authorities to be gullible but they weren't the ones buying concert tickets and albums. You are placing far too much emphasis and importance on stories which as you just said, are meant to be "entertaining".

>Politicians LIVE on that idea,

Who cares? He isn't a politician - he's a rock singer!

>but it is questionable whether or not an entertainer should do so.

I think it should be mandatory, if it makes him or her more interesting. The concern you're showing makes you sound like some of the critics from the seventies or the "Politicians" you referred to.

> And perhaps(?) the current day Alice has come to believe some of the incorrect stuff he has said after many years...thus even a documentary movie might become tainted by un-truths that have slowly become real truths in the authors mind?????

This is covered in the book that came with the deluxe edition of the documentary and we had endless discussions about this. In the book, two of the directors explain in some detail what their approach was in relation to dealing with 'the truth'. I definitely think he conflates events, for example, because when you've lived the kind of life that he has, everything becomes a blur and there are probably stories where even he doesn't know what really happened. The point here I think is that you seem to be implying there is a sinister motive behind all this. Do correct me if I'm wrong. I can't believe I really have to say this as I would assume it's obvious, but he's just a rock singer - he isn't asking you to trust him with your savings or something.

No, I don't see sinister motives at all. I see a man getting on in age that has publicly said a lot of things over the years, and, like you said, is no longer able to recall what are facts and what were stories. Thus my thought is, that as silly as it sounds, Alice might not be the best source of material (trust?) when it comes to recording his life story.

[A_MichaelUK]

From SkipTown:
No, I don't see sinister motives at all.

So why have you spent the last two years or so obsessing about what is or is not true?

>I see a man getting on in age that has publicly said a lot of things over the years, and, like you said, is no longer able to recall what are facts and what were stories.

I didn't say that. Read what I wrote. I wrote "there are probably stories where even he doesn't know what really happened." You are implying that what I said refers to all stories. I didn't say that because it does not. You yourself just said Alice is trying to entertain with his stories. That implies that he knows perfectly well that some stories are true and some are not.

>Thus my thought is, that as silly as it sounds, Alice might not be the best source of material (trust?) when it comes to recording his life story.

Again, it seems I have to spell this out - some stories he knows are true, some stories he know are not true and other stories he neither cares nor knows if they are true. I am amazed that I would have to make this point to a former teacher which is that most people (by which I mean the general public) don't care. I do care and obviously you do as well (although probably for different reasons) but the general public doesn't care. They just want to hear entertaining stories. Again, assuming your happy that the band enjoyed success built in part on myths and legends, you can't have it both ways and then complain when the public are entertained by stories which may or may not be true. He isn't in a court of law when he gives interviews. He isn't under oath and I am still unable to understand how it can be that a man of your age can see the world in such a blinkered way. I would go further and say that nobody (including you or I) is necessarily going to be "the best source of material (trust?) when it comes to recording his life story." either.