Is it worth recording new albums?

A_MichaelUK · Post by **A_MichaelUK** » Thu May 08, 2014 9:18 am

>I'm much happier, and i think i speak for most fans, when the more obscure stuff gets thrown in.

You don't, though. As has been pointed out before, the vast majority of people who buy tickets to see Alice are not the kind of hard - core followers who visit this site, for example.

A_MichaelUK · Post by **A_MichaelUK** » Thu May 08, 2014 10:45 am

>Just so it doesn't become accepted fact around here that if you're an act that has been around a long time, you can only play oldies if you hope to sell a lot of tickets. Rush proves this is simply not the case.

Nobody said there can't be exceptions but the point remains that the two sets of audiences are necessarily the same.

recoop · Post by **recoop** » Thu May 08, 2014 2:59 pm

Very interesting thread- and respect the different comments- if we go at it from a non commercial point of view I belive many artists especially musicians, lyricists, poets and writers have a compulsion to create...I would imagine Alice is in this category and wants to produce something which records that creativity...Can imagine a band full of guys might include differing opinions but at least with Alice he is the boss of his own output and wouldnt have to argue his case with other band members regarding creating new material. I think also that Alice as a stage character needs some new material, "fresh blood" if you like to change things a bit...I am also happy that over the years I have heard Gutter Cat, Halo etc...would pay extra for Luney Tune and a whole Hello Hurray( even although it has been discussed before re it not fitting into set)

A_MichaelUK · Post by **A_MichaelUK** » Thu May 08, 2014 3:29 pm

>Nobody said there can't be exceptions but the point remains that the two sets of audiences are necessarily the same.

That should be "Nobody said there can't be exceptions but the point remains that the two sets of audiences are not necessarily the same."

A_MichaelUK · Post by **A_MichaelUK** » Thu May 08, 2014 3:31 pm

>I belive many artists especially musicians, lyricists, poets and writers have a compulsion to create

They don't have to release it though.

Lucius Morthem · Post by **Lucius Morthem** » Thu May 08, 2014 11:10 pm

Motley Crue's response to the same topic was Sex. A new song played live. Then they released the song for free for their fans. It was incredible to see a band doing that

larryelbows · Post by **larryelbows** » Sat May 10, 2014 2:36 am

God forbid they do it for the love of creating an album.

wind_up_toy · Post by **wind_up_toy** » Sat May 10, 2014 7:46 am

larryelbows wrote:God forbid they do it for the love of creating an album.

And despite all the problems with piracy, there's never been an easier or cheaper way to create music and get it out there. That's the good news.

I've little knowledge on piracy but it makes me quite sad to think that this problem is influencing whether or not artists create new albums these days.

It's incredibly hypocritical really, to like an album so much but have no problem ripping off the artist by not paying for it. It also makes no sense as despite liking the music you're creating absolutely no incentive (other than artistic desire) for them to produce more music.

A_MichaelUK · Post by **A_MichaelUK** » Sat May 10, 2014 8:01 am

>God forbid they do it for the love of creating an album.

Who is going to pay for that?

Crazy Little Child · Post by **Crazy Little Child** » Sat May 10, 2014 6:28 pm

A_MichaelUK wrote:>I'm much happier, and i think i speak for most fans, when the more obscure stuff gets thrown in.

You don't, though. As has been pointed out before, the vast majority of people who buy tickets to see Alice are not the kind of hard - core followers who visit this site, for example.

Well, i probably speak for most "fans", ie: those with more than a passing interest in the AC catalog, rather than the general punters who show up at a gig.

I realize for artists like Alice there's a balancing act between promoting new material, holding the attention of a casual audience with the hits, and pleasing the fans, but AC is not really a top-10 act, so i feel like there is probably more wiggle room to throw in unexpected songs then we normally see.

That said, he's got a lot of territory to cover, as many of the new albums have indeed lots of fans, and he doesn't do a bad job overall. But i tend to agree with JJ that there's no point to make an album just for the sake of promotion, and I would have rather seen a tour with "Black Juju" and whatever else, or even god forbid a classic album played through live, then a bunch of songs from "They Eyes of AC"...

A_MichaelUK · Post by **A_MichaelUK** » Sat May 10, 2014 7:46 pm

>Well, i probably speak for most "fans", ie: those with more than a passing interest in the AC catalog, rather than the general punters who show up at a gig.

Thanks for the clarification. Again though, those are a minority (albeit a large one) at most shows.

Crazy Little Child · Post by **Crazy Little Child** » Sat May 10, 2014 9:16 pm

A_MichaelUK wrote:>Well, i probably speak for most "fans", ie: those with more than a passing interest in the AC catalog, rather than the general punters who show up at a gig.

Thanks for the clarification. Again though, those are a minority (albeit a large one) at most shows.

I would agree with you there, but i still think this "average" concert goer we are discussing ... what are they gonna "expect" to hear as casual listeners? Most of "Greatest Hits" plus "WTMN", "Poison" and "That song that was in Wayne's World"? If we accept the JJ French argument that these folks couldn't care less about new material, I think that leaves a lot of possibilities.

Hey, i'd like to see Alice play a concert with 1 song from every album, in order. Now THAT would be a show i'd line up overnight to get tickets for (he says, showing his age).

A_MichaelUK · Post by **A_MichaelUK** » Sat May 10, 2014 9:57 pm

> Most of "Greatest Hits" plus "WTMN", "Poison" and "That song that was in Wayne's World"?

You make it sound like that's all they get although I don't think that's what you meant.

>If we accept the JJ French argument that these folks couldn't care less about new material, I think that leaves a lot of possibilities.

It depends who you ask. Most of the complaints from people here seem to be about the lack of new material whereas, if anything, Alice tends to throw in older material (although still not obscure enough for some) as that is something most people are more likely to have heard.

E_maniac · Post by **E_maniac** » Mon May 12, 2014 6:51 am

This is an interesting thread, the issue with twisted sister is that creatively all of those guys have nothing to offer. This goes back way beyond the illegal downloading took off. Any true artist wants to create new music and then most of them will at least want to play you a couple of those songs live because hopefully they are proud of the material.
im pretty sure welcome 2 my nightmare sold pretty well all things considered wasnt the 1st week US sales like 18,000? (his highest charted album for like 20 odd years i believe), yes people pirate material (im not one of them but its hard to argue with free isnt it?) but good material will sell enough to cover the cost of recording (digital tech makes this cheaper than ever before) and then give you a valid reason for touring.
I will not see a bands "greatest hits tour" more than once, i want new material! the trick is to lace the set with enough new tracks mixed in with the classics (brutal planet and to a lesser extent dragontown were probably the last good examples of alice doing this) from then on its just been 2 or maybe 3 new ones if we are lucky!
The alice live set is just weird, i mean come on. No casual fan knows the song ballad of dwight fry, dead babies, billion dollar babies or half of the rest of alices set.
As was posted earlier, as long as alice plays schools out, no more mr nice guy, maybe elected, poison, "that song from waynes world"" they go home happy. If you throw in a execution and some blood, maybe a straight jacket then we are golden. For some reason alice thinks he has to play ballad in the straight jacket, why not wind up toy.? the casuals dont know either of them so its a win win.
The raise the dead tour was part brilliance (he's back finaly in the set and with a guitarist that could do it justice! and house of fire, caffine and the congregation) and part horrible (all the covers, which i might point out was hated when i seen him in london, no reaction at all to the point where he had to work very hard to win the crowd back around)
Alices covers album is a just a bad move, it may have made sense if it came out last year as a stop gap but this is the longest time ever to record a covers album. an album NO ONE cares about. if your a fan you want new material if your a casual you dont care anyway, bad move on all fronts. but alice for some reason likes the idea so fare enough, just hope he records a proper album soon!!

As is mentioned before there are plenty of other bands of various years who release and play new material and sell very well:- iron maiden, rush, judas priest, gary numan, paradise lost, anathema (who don't play barely any of their "hits" anymore)
Lets hope alice continues to record and start to play more of his new songs live, even play smaller venues if thats what it means, does he need the money anymore????

A_MichaelUK · Post by **A_MichaelUK** » Mon May 12, 2014 9:38 am

>good material will sell enough to cover the cost of recording (digital tech makes this cheaper than ever before)

What about promotion and distribution?

>No casual fan knows the song ballad of dwight fry, dead babies, billion dollar babies or half of the rest of alices set.

I have seen around a hundred and fifty shows over the years and the cheers from the crowd would suggest otherwise.

>As was posted earlier, as long as alice plays schools out, no more mr nice guy, maybe elected, poison, "that song from waynes world"" they go home happy.

Really? How would you know? What about "I'm Eighteen", "Welcome To My Nightmare", "Only Women Bleed" and the songs you mentioned.

As is mentioned before there are plenty of other bands of various years who release and play new material and sell very well:- iron maiden, rush, judas priest, gary numan, paradise lost, anathema (who don't play barely any of their "hits" anymore)

Again, what works for them doesn't work in all cases. At least three of the bands you mentioned are bigger than Alice with a bigger hard - core following and the last three are arguably not bigger than Alice almost to the point where they almost only have a hard - core following, to the extent that it doesn't make a difference.

>Lets hope alice continues to record and start to play more of his new songs live, even play smaller venues if thats what it means, does he need the money anymore????

Is that your business?

mr.barlow · Post by **mr.barlow** » Mon May 12, 2014 5:53 pm

E_maniac wrote:This is an interesting thread, the issue with twisted sister is that creatively all of those guys have nothing to offer. This goes back way beyond the illegal downloading took off. Any true artist wants to create new music and then most of them will at least want to play you a couple of those songs live because hopefully they are proud of the material.
im pretty sure welcome 2 my nightmare sold pretty well all things considered wasnt the 1st week US sales like 18,000? (his highest charted album for like 20 odd years i believe), yes people pirate material (im not one of them but its hard to argue with free isnt it?) but good material will sell enough to cover the cost of recording (digital tech makes this cheaper than ever before) and then give you a valid reason for touring.
I will not see a bands "greatest hits tour" more than once, i want new material! the trick is to lace the set with enough new tracks mixed in with the classics (brutal planet and to a lesser extent dragontown were probably the last good examples of alice doing this) from then on its just been 2 or maybe 3 new ones if we are lucky!
The alice live set is just weird, i mean come on. No casual fan knows the song ballad of dwight fry, dead babies, billion dollar babies or half of the rest of alices set.
As was posted earlier, as long as alice plays schools out, no more mr nice guy, maybe elected, poison, "that song from waynes world"" they go home happy. If you throw in a execution and some blood, maybe a straight jacket then we are golden. For some reason alice thinks he has to play ballad in the straight jacket, why not wind up toy.? the casuals dont know either of them so its a win win.
The raise the dead tour was part brilliance (he's back finaly in the set and with a guitarist that could do it justice! and house of fire, caffine and the congregation) and part horrible (all the covers, which i might point out was hated when i seen him in london, no reaction at all to the point where he had to work very hard to win the crowd back around)
Alices covers album is a just a bad move, it may have made sense if it came out last year as a stop gap but this is the longest time ever to record a covers album. an album NO ONE cares about. if your a fan you want new material if your a casual you dont care anyway, bad move on all fronts. but alice for some reason likes the idea so fare enough, just hope he records a proper album soon!!

As is mentioned before there are plenty of other bands of various years who release and play new material and sell very well:- iron maiden, rush, judas priest, gary numan, paradise lost, anathema (who don't play barely any of their "hits" anymore)
Lets hope alice continues to record and start to play more of his new songs live, even play smaller venues if thats what it means, does he need the money anymore????

The music world has changed drastically. Albums for the most part are now made to promote tours. Not the other way around. Most artists make their money on the tours and merchandising. Albums are no longer the money makers--one of the main reason for this is piracy and unpaid downloads. Free means stealing. There is nothing free-somebody somewhere has to pay for it. Someone had to pay to record the album--why should ANYONE expect it for free? It has destroyed the industry and I wouldn't blame any artist who stopped making music just for this reason. Why invest everything you've got-both artistically--and financially for something that everybody is going to steal? The whole point of any career--or job--is to make money. I mean why should Alice write new music that only a fraction of his fans will buy and the rest will simply steal? In order to see a band--you have to pay--and that's the way it should be. In regards to the set list--Alice simply doing what is proving to be successful for him. If it was not working and making money I'm sure he'd change it. As far has having a guitar player "who could do it justice"--are you kidding me? Are you really serious? Orianthi is a great player--but how about the guys who WROTE the material like Michael Bruce, Glen Buxton, Dick Wagner, Kane Roberts, Davey Johnstone, etc. These guys WROTE the songs---so what do you mean he finally has a guitarist who can "do it justice"? And then you have Steve Hunter (only one of the best guitarists who ever walked planet Earth), Artie Funaro, Mike Pinera, and the list goes on. Each and every guitarist from every era of ALice has been some of the best in the world--at the time--and in most cases--ever! As far as the covers album is concerned--it's up to Alice. He has been in the business--successfully--for nearly 50 years! He has earned the write to record anything he wants. I hope he does an album of Burt Bacharach cover songs just to piss the complainers off even more! If it sells--fine--if not--fine too. Again--why should he invest his time and effort to make something that nearly everybody will steal? Since you are going to be giving away your product for free--give them what free deserves. And what this bit about "does he need the money anymore"? What does that mean? Are you saying that because a man works his whole life to become successful and wealthy he should just "settle" for less? Why is it that because Alice has achieved success you should think he should set his standards lower? Because Alice has money he should be willing to give away his work and effort for free? That is beyond ignorant.

Daggers & Contracts · Post by **Daggers & Contracts** » Mon May 12, 2014 10:43 pm

Well said Mr. Barlow, it was always the tours that sold the Lp's. Now more than ever tours are used to sell (expensive) seats & merchandise. Cd sales are a bump in the area of the show - but you're right if they can get it for "free" why not? Me, as soon as I can get my hands on Super Duper & the "Covers" album I will purchase it.

E_maniac · Post by **E_maniac** » Mon May 12, 2014 11:52 pm

Some guys getting quite vitriolic on this,
I for one have already pre ordered the new super duper special edition blar blar for £34. Along with presumably everyone who is an actual music fan i still buy music which is why i have over 2000 cds.
I wil pre order and buy his new album. I will judge it when i hear it, if its good then great, its just i dont have high hopes for it as an idea.
i just brought the SHM-Cds of WTMN to FTI for an extortionate sum of money, im not a guy who isnt shy on paying for product.
I never said it wasnt stealing, it clearly is, but the buisness model as is does not offer a good alternative to free. Is there such a thing? again the moral issues im not talking about (morally of course its wrong to steal)
The comment about actually having a guitarist who can play it, relax i know dick, steve, kane etc are amazing but i have never been impressed with ryan, kerri or some of his other recent guiartists who never seemed that good technically, more a garage rock style player, which is fine, just not my style, personnaly i cannot see ryan etc being able to shred like some of his older members, al pitrelli, kane roberts, dick wagner etc. Its all opinion guys.

In terms of knowing the non hit songs, yeah i suppose people might know only women bleed, welcome to my nightmare etc. but they are not or have ever been "hits" And are people cheering the song or the stage act?
im not saying i know for definate, far from it, but just some of my observations from the gigs i have been to.

We all know that gigs are the money makers now, the increase in ticket prices in the last 10 years attest to that, but at least with the backing of an album there feels to me like there is some legitimacy to it all.

Its all opinion at the end of the day.

As much as id love alice to come out and play last temptation, welcome 2 my nightmare etc in its entirety im not stupid enough to know the chances are slim to say the least, but i can dream cant i?

Toronto Bob · Post by **Toronto Bob** » Tue May 13, 2014 2:45 am

Ultimately it's worth it if you have enough great material. J French may not have another good album in him. I think the same can be said about Alice too but I hope he will surprise us all some day.

Since album sales have fallen so dramatically the old artists basically sell only to their base and by the looks of Alice's opening slot roles and his 1500 seater headline shows, that base is shrinking. Happens to the best of them except of course the ones it doesn't happen to.

Alice - put out a great album, tour with it like you're proud of it and I'll consider buying a ticket to your show again. Or reunite with Neal/Dennis and Michael.

E_maniac · Post by **E_maniac** » Tue May 13, 2014 3:14 am

put out a great album, tour with it like you're proud of it

Thats the key isnt it? Alices set lists still vary enough for me to be worth it, i.e. seeing him live every year (and the fact he is my fave artist) but i know what you mean. Seems he hasnt been "proud" of an album since brutal planet/dragontown.
Which i can agree with up until welcome 2 my nightmare, which lets face it, is amazing and a true return to form.(never really liked eyes, diamonds and along came a spider) Welcome 2 my nightare really deserved more love, drop 4 covers and add 4 new songs. Still got all the hits and new songs for the fans+people who actualy brought the new album (you never know it might actually convince someone to buy it as well, like the old days!) everyone wins!

Wouldnt you love both welcome to my nightmare albums back to back with schools out at the end.
Done and done id say

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