Is it worth recording new albums?

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mr.barlow

Re: Is it worth recording new albums?

Post by mr.barlow » Tue May 13, 2014 4:44 am

Toronto Bob wrote:Ultimately it's worth it if you have enough great material. J French may not have another good album in him. I think the same can be said about Alice too but I hope he will surprise us all some day.

Since album sales have fallen so dramatically the old artists basically sell only to their base and by the looks of Alice's opening slot roles and his 1500 seater headline shows, that base is shrinking. Happens to the best of them except of course the ones it doesn't happen to.

Alice - put out a great album, tour with it like you're proud of it and I'll consider buying a ticket to your show again. Or reunite with Neal/Dennis and Michael.
Let's just say that Alice did reunite with the surviving members of the original band for a reunion tour--what size venues do you think they'd be playing? Would they tour with or without theatrics? Would they play only ACG material? When the tour ended and Alice went back to being solo would it be another break-up?

The one thing that is a fact--a sad tragic fact--is that outside of hardcore fans no one knows that there was an original Alice Cooper group. Those that did think they were Alice's original backing band. Unfortunate--unfair--but true. A reunion of the original band would attract the interest of nobody outside of the hardcore fans. The tour would most likely attract less an audience than Alice's is drawing now.

A large segment of the set list consists of fan favorites and hit songs recorded after 1974. Would the original band agree to play post 1974 material? Also what about the theatrics? The main draw of an Alice show to the mainstream audeince is the theatrics--would the original band agree to a full blown Alice show circa 2014? If they chose to tour doing only the pre-1974 songs would that not also be an "oldies" or "hits" tour--the same kind of tour that a lot of people are now complaining about? Even if the band were to perform some of the original albums in their entirety how would that appeal to the mainstream audience? Also, if they recorded an album of all-new material do you really think it would sell in the millions? Even if it was the best album they ever did it would go nowhere. The world and industry is much different than it was in 1972. Alice Cooper was played on pop radio stations and AM radio in the early 1970s which helped them sell millions of records and propel them to superstrdom. Does anyone really think that mainstream pop radio that currently plays Miley Cyrus, Beyonce and Lady Gaga is going to give airplay to a bunch of 65+ year old senior citizens playing hard rock? Everything is down to niche marketing. Also, let's just say the album was a smash hit with a hit single--my guess is that once again--most mainstream fans in 2014 would think it's an Alice solo record. The world knows Alice as a guy with makeup and a snake. A reunion would in no way change that perception. More bitterness--more rancor.

I'm sure the idea was explored and if it stood a chance of being successful and was seen to be a money maker it would have happened.

Alice is now 66 years old. The show does not last forever. He has earned the right to do whatever he pleases. If he wants to do covers--he'll do covers. If he wants to open for Motley Crue--it's his choice and his career. If he never wants to write and record a new album the rest of his career--that's his choice. He gave us nearly 50 years of his life to entertain us. I've been a fan for two-thirds of my life. Isn't that enough for people? Be happy he still tours at all. If the fan base does not like this or dwindles away I'm sure Alice will happily retire to the golf course and live happily ever after.

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Re: Is it worth recording new albums?

Post by ElectedPlus » Tue May 13, 2014 7:03 am

As a fan, it's a special treat to hear new or rarely played material live but an Alice show is much more than the novelty of it's setlist.

Actually, if he were to perform more of the deeper cuts onstage, the majority of the audience would feel like how we would if he was to debut a bunch of new material from a forthcoming album that we hadn't heard... interesting but rather alienating. Given the option, I'd rather be at a show surrounded by an excited and engaged audience.

I'm tempted to go as far to say that the familiarity of the tracks performed in the show is essential for the audience to appreciate Alice's charisma which brings these songs to life onstage. They're not performed with a sense of nostalgia, after all.

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Re: Is it worth recording new albums?

Post by patrick » Tue May 13, 2014 8:48 am

I think Mr Barlow has several good points in his post.
I'd like once again to compare with Deep Purple: the different compositions of the group lead to different styles, more or less recognisable ( you cannot replace Ian Gillan unnoticed :) ), whereas to the non hardcore Alice fan, the difference between pre 1974 and after ....be it only by the fact that Alice's voice is dominant in the Alice Cooper Music Concept.
only my two pence in this..
you really wouldn't understand..

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Re: Is it worth recording new albums?

Post by A_MichaelUK » Tue May 13, 2014 9:24 am

>but the buisness model as is does not offer a good alternative to free.

Well, a legitimate streaming service like Spotify (for all its faults) is a good place to start.

>In terms of knowing the non hit songs, yeah i suppose people might know only women bleed, welcome to my nightmare etc. but they are not or have ever been "hits"

A "hit" song and a well - known song are both well - known.

>And are people cheering the song or the stage act?

Both, I think.

> but at least with the backing of an album there feels to me like there is some legitimacy to it all.

With respect, that is nonsense. He isn't responsible for what you think is or isn't 'legitimate'.

>Its all opinion at the end of the day.

Well, yes, but some opinions are based on experience and not specualation and assumptions. I can see that you're new here and it would be a good idea (if you haven't already) to spend some time going through the old threads as many of these topics have been debated before many times and with some interesting obsservations. After having done that, if you think you have anything original to offer, we'd love to see it, otherwise we're all just rehashing the same old debates.

>As much as id love alice to come out and play last temptation, welcome 2 my nightmare etc in its entirety im not stupid enough to know the chances are slim to say the least, but i can dream cant i?

Unfortunately, Alice doesn't have that luxury.

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Re: Is it worth recording new albums?

Post by A_MichaelUK » Tue May 13, 2014 9:36 am

>Ultimately it's worth it if you have enough great material.

So how do you explain the rise in the illegal acquisition of music or films? Just take a moment and think about it. Are people illegally obtaining "material" which is not "great"? If so, why are they obtaining it? Whether it's "great" or not has nothing to do with it. If it was there wouldn't be a shortfall between legal and illegal acquisitions amounting to billions of dollars a year and there's plenty of evidence for that.

>Since album sales have fallen so dramatically the old artists basically sell only to their base and by the looks of Alice's opening slot roles and his 1500 seater headline shows,

You have a short memory - it wasn't so long ago that I explained to you that in that territories, Alice playes to bigger crowds than that. Also, you're getting obsessed with these "opening slot roles" because as has also been explained, he will be getting paid as much, if not more, as he does for his own headlining appearances. It isn't as iof he is getting paid what some band with no name or reputation would be getting paid in that position.

>Alice - put out a great album, tour with it like you're proud of it and I'll consider buying a ticket to your show again.

He is "proud of" them. The problem is, there just isn't an indication that that majority of the audience are. As has been explained here about a billion times, not everyone who buys a ticket is the kind of hard - core fanatic who might visit this site.

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Re: Is it worth recording new albums?

Post by A_MichaelUK » Tue May 13, 2014 9:42 am

>I'm sure the idea was explored and if it stood a chance of being successful and was seen to be a money maker it would have happened.

Exactly. It is weird how nobody ever thinks of that. Even The Eagles got back together (and anyone who knows their history will know what I'm referring to).

>Alice is now 66 years old. The show does not last forever. He has earned the right to do whatever he pleases.

Not according to some people on this site. He has to do exactly what THEY want.

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Re: Is it worth recording new albums?

Post by A_MichaelUK » Tue May 13, 2014 9:51 am

> interesting but rather alienating.

Exactly. This has been discussed so many time before - he doesn't just choose a bunch of random songs to perform in some random order. He has to strike a balance between performing songs he thinks the audience wants to hear, performing songs he wants to perform, perform at least one or two new songs, perform ast least one onscure track, ensuring the songs work in a live context, ensure they fit within any theatrical concept and ensure the show has some kind of flow to it and to be honest (and I don't deny his choices can be a little conservative sometimes), I'd rather trust his judgement rather than the judgement of some people around here have never been and will never be, in his position but instead sit in front of their computers and pontificate about things they know almost nothing about.

>I'd rather be at a show surrounded by an excited and engaged audience.

That is a great point because some people around here don't seem to be able to understand that Alice can see how the crowd are reacting at different points of the show. He can see and hear what does and what doesn't work.

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Re: Is it worth recording new albums?

Post by SickThings » Tue May 13, 2014 11:59 am

A_MichaelUK wrote:That is a great point because some people around here don't seem to be able to understand that Alice can see how the crowd are reacting at different points of the show. He can see and hear what does and what doesn't work.
Which is why shows get tweaked as the tours progress. The "Raise the Dead" portion of the Raise the Dead Tour was changed numerous times over the two years it ran. Why? If you were around here then, you'll know that the way it was originally done confused people. The first half-dozen shows or so had different voiceover intros, including one done by Alice. Even Shep posted here (via Si) about the tweaks. Last summer, they tweaked it more with the addition of the gurney and Sheryl's nurse. Each of the changes improved that section of the show---and they happened because they saw what was working and what wasn't working.

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Re: Is it worth recording new albums?

Post by wind_up_toy » Tue May 13, 2014 12:28 pm

A_MichaelUK wrote:That is a great point because some people around here don't seem to be able to understand that Alice can see how the crowd are reacting at different points of the show. He can see and hear what does and what doesn't work.
This is an interesting comment.

I was always under the impression that it was quite hard for the artist to appreciate how a set was being recieved as they (a) couldn't see the crowd due to the lighting and (b) found it hard to hear what was going on because of the sound from the monitor speakers.

I know you know that I'm no expert so if the above is incorrect then Alice does an excellent job of staying professional even if he knows that what he's doing isn't being well received.

I very rarely see him deviate from his character.
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Re: Is it worth recording new albums?

Post by A_MichaelUK » Tue May 13, 2014 12:47 pm

> couldn't see the crowd due to the lighting

It isn't the same throughout the whole show.

> and (b) found it hard to hear what was going on because of the sound from the monitor speakers.

What about the time between one song finishing and another beginning?

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Re: Is it worth recording new albums?

Post by wind_up_toy » Tue May 13, 2014 12:57 pm

As stated, I know nothing.

I'm sure the most valuable feedback somes from his crew and those closest to him. I always like the comment that his sister gives the best (and most honest) feedback on his albums.
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Re: Is it worth recording new albums?

Post by Mr. Skull » Tue May 13, 2014 2:54 pm

Alice is very well aware of what goes on in the audience during a concert.
I saw him performing in 2009 in Kerkrade and somewere in the middle of the show he asked the crowd if something was wrong because they were so silent...

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Re: Is it worth recording new albums?

Post by Toronto Bob » Tue May 13, 2014 4:39 pm

A_MichaelUK wrote: I'd rather trust his judgement rather than the judgement of some people around here have never been and will never be, in his position but instead sit in front of their computers and pontificate about things they know almost nothing about.
Dude, it's a message board where people discuss things. We can have an opinion that doesn't line up with yours. Pontificating about something we know almost nothing about? Well I'm not a performer who goes on tours but neither are you so we're even.

Message boards are for discussing opinions and engaging in all sorts of what ifs, and or buts. You just don't like it when someone criticizes your fella. Too bad - you don't own the internet.

The OP was about how JJ French opines that releasing new albums just isn't worth it. Yeah - if you're a hair band from the eighties and one-hit-wonderish and gimmicky, he is right. But for those artists with a great back catalog and who can still put forth a real effort to try and compose new music, it ain't right.

I just wish Alice would follow in great artist footsteps (Zappa/Neil Young/Rush)and not have gone done the road he's chosen. Try not to take it so personally amuk and stop being some weird gatekeeper of AC. Is he aware of the terrible PR damage you are doing to his brand?

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Re: Is it worth recording new albums?

Post by steven_crayn » Tue May 13, 2014 5:10 pm

Even in an era of Internet piracy Welcome 2 My Nightmare I believe was Alice's biggest selling album since Hey Stoopid.

Albums may be a bit of a loss leader these days but as any artist will tell you there is a need to be creative and there is no point doing it unless you put it out there as you want people to hear it.

The money men don't give a toss about the music these days, by Alice's own admission back in 72 the president of Warner Bros would be in the studio getting excited about hearing School's Out, the fact that it turned out to be Warner's biggest selling single at that point is a bi product.

You can polish a turd all you like it will still be a turd make better records people will buy it, yes the days of record sales like the Billion Dollar Babies album are gone forever but that's not just down to piracy but poor product.

Twisted Sister never made a Killer, School's Out, Billion Dollar Babies or a Welcome To My Nightmare and no one really cares about them other than their minor fan base.

Alice Cooper hasn't got the fan base he once had and some of that is down to records that simply couldn't compare to the great works he did with the band and as a solo act, but lets not write off the record business just yet.

People will always want to hear new music if its any good and not everyone will rip it off. The music business was slow in reacting to Internet piracy but iTunes accounts for a lot of units and even though bands make more money on touring these days, just flogging your greatest hits will become tiresome, there is a balance to be had between creativity and business, one thing I think we could see is more live albums getting released with new songs with no studio release getting heard that way. Just playing new songs live with nothing to own so you can hear it again and again is not going to prolong an artists career.

Once upon a time the best versions of a rock bands songs were on a live album, examples such as Deep Purple's Made In Japan and UFO's Strangers In The Night spring to mind.
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Re: Is it worth recording new albums?

Post by pitkin88 » Tue May 13, 2014 5:14 pm

Right now it is a great time for established artists to release a cd or an album. It costs way less to make an album these days and a lot of the rich artists have home studios. They don't need a label anymore. Sell the thing on your web site or at the shows. You can make a lot more money without the record company, stores etc taking their cut.

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Re: Is it worth recording new albums?

Post by A_MichaelUK » Tue May 13, 2014 6:55 pm

>We can have an opinion that doesn't line up with yours.

Absolutely, except that most of the opinions posted here don't reflect reality.

>Well I'm not a performer who goes on tours but neither are you so we're even.

I have spent around two weeks a year since 1986 "on tours" and while it's not as much as say Bob Dylan, I think it's a lot more than you have. My opinions are based on experience and talking to people who have been in the business for about four decades, as well. What are your credentials. No, wait - you just said you didn't have any.

>Message boards are for discussing opinions and engaging in all sorts of what ifs, and or buts.

Your posts have never contained "what ifs, and or buts." - what an unbelievable piece of revisionism.

>You just don't like it when someone criticizes your fella. Too bad - you don't own the internet.

Really? I thought I did. I am shocked.

>But for those artists with a great back catalog and who can still put forth a real effort to try and compose new music, it ain't right.

They don't have to release it though if they don't think it's economically viable.

>I just wish Alice would follow in great artist footsteps (Zappa/Neil Young/Rush)and not have gone done the road he's chosen.

I also "wish Alice" would do or not do certain things. Maybe I just don't go around bleating about it because things could be a lot worse. Also, it's interesting that you of all people decided to respond to my post. Did it hit too close to home, or something? After all, I never referred to you in it.

>Try not to take it so personally amuk and stop being some weird gatekeeper of AC.

It isn't about taking something personally. It is about explaining things from his point of view and based on experience and by the way, show me where in any post I have agreed with his sometimes conservative choice of songs. There is a difference between defending a position and explaining it.

>Is he aware of the terrible PR damage you are doing to his brand?

What a huge YAWN! We have BEEN THROUGH THAT ALREADY. His career has certainly gone down the toilet since I started posting here with approximately a thousand members hanging on every word I type.

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Re: Is it worth recording new albums?

Post by A_MichaelUK » Tue May 13, 2014 7:04 pm

>Even in an era of Internet piracy Welcome 2 My Nightmare I believe was Alice's biggest selling album since Hey Stoopid.

It still sold a relatively small amount in comparison and it was because it started from a small base that the figure looked as high as it did.

>Albums may be a bit of a loss leader these days but as any artist will tell you there is a need to be creative and there is no point doing it unless you put it out there as you want people to hear it.

They want to be paid as well, though

>The money men don't give a toss about the music these days, by Alice's own admission back in 72 the president of Warner Bros would be in the studio getting excited about hearing School's Out,

It took that single to get that record company interested. Before then, they were still being treated at arm's length even though they had released two successful albums before "School's Out".

>You can polish a turd all you like it will still be a turd make better records people will buy it, yes the days of record sales like the Billion Dollar Babies album are gone forever but that's not just down to piracy but poor product.

That really isn't true. If it was, there wouldn't be the gap between legal and illegal acquisition. If that was true, the album you referred to (generally regarded as one of Alice's best albums) would have sold a million copies.

>The music business was slow in reacting to Internet piracy but iTunes accounts for a lot of units

Even that is being overtaken by streaming (as discussed in a recent thread).

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Re: Is it worth recording new albums?

Post by A_MichaelUK » Tue May 13, 2014 7:04 pm

>Sell the thing on your web site or at the shows. You can make a lot more money without the record company, stores etc taking their cut.

You would still need to pay for manufacturing, distribution and promotion, although it should make accounting more transparent. I have always liked the idea of albums given away for free (to the customer) by newspapers.

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Re: Is it worth recording new albums?

Post by pitkin88 » Tue May 13, 2014 8:07 pm

A_MichaelUK wrote:>Sell the thing on your web site or at the shows. You can make a lot more money without the record company, stores etc taking their cut.

You would still need to pay for manufacturing, distribution and promotion, although it should make accounting more transparent. I have always liked the idea of albums given away for free (to the customer) by newspapers.

Yes but that is a relatively small amount of money compared to what a record company takes. Green Day had a site you could go to to download artwork. Artwork could be done by fans for next to nothing. Distribution is easy you sell at gigs. If it is mainly hardcore fans buying the cd then promotion here and his site. If they can sell stupid arsed teddy bears and rip off USB sticks at gigs they can sell a new cd.

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Re: Is it worth recording new albums?

Post by A_MichaelUK » Tue May 13, 2014 9:11 pm

>Yes but that is a relatively small amount of money compared to what a record company takes.

Well, every deal is different of course, (for example, you can license a recording to a big (or small) label and still make more money than if you released it yourself. If it was that straightforward and easy, everyone would be doing it, but yes, it isn't impossible. As for keeping the distribuition 'in - house', even the biggest organisations can make mistakes with their mail order service (for example, the recent release of "Hong Kong Garden" by Universal Music Group), never mind a smaller organisation.

> Distribution is easy you sell at gigs.

I know - plenty of people do it (I think that's also happened at Alice shows), but there are always be those people who won't be at the shows and you would still need to pay someone to do it.

>If it is mainly hardcore fans buying the cd then promotion here and his site. If they can sell stupid arsed teddy bears

Those are suprisingly popular

>and rip off USB sticks

I have never heard that particular complaint.

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