Alice Cooper and rock history

[Robbie]

First apologies to the moderators as I know this has been touched on many times in other threads but I hope my comments below are sufficiently different to warrant a new thread.

In the link provided on the news page Reginald Harkema is quoted saying: "I emerged with a picture of a rock band (for Alice Cooper was originally a band) and a personality whose importance seems to have been lost in rock history."

At present I am reading "Yeah, Yeah, Yeah:The story of modern pop" by Bob Stanley. It is superbly written and is a chronological history of pop music in quite extraordinary detail.It justifiably has great reviews and was Sunday Times "Pop Music book of the Year 2013" and "Rough Trade Music Book of the Year 2013". As I read it I looked forward to reaching the early 1970's to see how he contextualised the phenomenon of Alice Cooper. I reached the chapter on Glam Rock where I read "In the States, with the exception of Anglophile shock-tactic rocker Alice Cooper glam meant less than zero."......and that's it!!!As well as writing the band off as one person I was astonished at the dismissal of the Alice Cooper legacy and influence.To understand my bewilderment further here are examples of the space devoted to others from hundreds in the book: Elvis Costello (a paragraph), Joe Jackson (a paragraph)The Spice Girls (a paragraph)David Cassidy (a page)A nine page chapter weaved around Marc Bolan and David Bowie more than a page about George Michael and Wham and so on....

It makes me think that my memory is at fault. Did I not watch with my brothers the electrifying "School's Out" TOTP appearance and rush out to buy the single? Did we not talk about Alice Cooper in the yard at school? Did I not quickly turn to the page on Alice Cooper before any other in the NME Annual given to me as a Christmas present in 1972? Did I not buy sheet music for "Schools Out" , "Hello Hurray" etc. to try to learn to play the songs of my heroes? Did I not watch the regional news programme featuring the clip of Alice wielding a toothbrush in the streets and kick myself that I had not got tickets for the sold out "Welcome to my Nightmare" show in Liverpool? Did Leo Abse, Mary Whitehouse and many parents- including my own- not express outrage at the antics of Alice Cooper? Alice Cooper were not some minority/novelty act in 1972 / 3. Well not how I remember it.

I am at a loss to explain how a book that is so detailed, once again makes the same omission and emphasises others at the expense of Alice Cooper. Can anyone else explain it?

[A_MichaelUK]

>Can anyone else explain it?

The usual combination of laziness, lack of research and personal taste, I suppose.

[wind_up_toy]

Sadly, both entities of Alice Cooper seem to have been pidgeon-holed as a novelty act with little or no artistic merit by some folk. It's a heinous crime really but the further we move into the future the worse it will become if you ask me as those who witnessed their wider impact (such as your good self) fall off the radar.

There's a certain irony that the very things that helped, but were not solely responsible for, Alice Cooper becoming so successful (the music wasn't bad really was it?) now seem to be holding back the long term legacy.

[Robbie]

Andy wrote:"The usual combination of laziness, lack of research and personal taste, I suppose."

Laziness-the book is 740 pages long!It also appears to be exhaustively researched-it's almost encyclopaedic in its scope and breadth (a page on David Essex?, a chapter on Philadelphia soul),it appears to have no bias towards English artists as the history of pop in the USA is traced in considerable detail. In terms of personal taste, he includes comments about bands like Westlife that he clearly doesn't like (does anybody?!!). Don't get me wrong, its a really good book and I would recommend it to anyone but somehow Alice Cooper again don't get the recognition I, and I suspect many others on here feel they deserve!

[A_MichaelUK]

>Laziness-the book is 740 pages long!It also appears to be exhaustively researched

Maybe he was exhausted after all that work and couldn't do any more (I'm being sarcastic, obviously). In any case, none of this is new.

[andyrushworth]

If the guy is a Bowie Bolan fan then you would expect some bias , I feel Alice is tons more relevent ,but as a singles artist then no ! only had about half a dozen singles of chart value possibly less than The Osmonds or Mud , if we talk albums then he's up there people tend to pit Alice against Bowie which is daft because they are both solid artists !
For me those bloody aweful Radio1 DJs are the problem , they where happy for the likes of Mud or The Osmonds or Bay City Rollers to be championed in the media because they knew they were dealing with managed puppets who relied on writers and old school managers !
So the next time we talk about Alice and Bowie we should remember that both these artists eventually proved themselves over a long time !
Just curious as to whether we automatically like to choose our own music, hence if Alice and Bowie had been media darlings would we have chosen to opt for different artists altogether ?

[concolz]

I am at a loss to explain how a book that is so detailed, once again makes the same omission and emphasises others at the expense of Alice Cooper. Can anyone else explain it?

Well, I think it just bears out what I've posted on other threads. Alice Cooper, although hugely popular chart-wise, were mostly marginalised by 70's critics. The mantra was: 'all show and no music'.

Most critics loved 'arty' - think Bowie - and they loved 'wasted' - think Lou - but they held their noses when it came to 'Grand Guignol filtered through Busby Berkeley'. Once Alice went solo the gloves really came off, and he was usually rubbished as 'pantomime rock', who wasn't 'serious' or 'worthy'. A 'received view' of Alice Cooper then began to take shape which has then passed on down the decades.

Alice further alienated the 'taste makers' with his tongue-in-cheek humour, ballads, hair metal, religious convictions, golfing, not fitting a prescribed political mould etc. In the end the wonderful music and the influential character became obscured by all these other things.

You see the results of this in AC's regular non-appearance in those interminable music mag 'best of' polls. You see it in the lack of record store displays. You see it in the glossy Sunday supplements, where the anniversaries of 'Rumours', 'Raw Power, 'Tubular Bells', 'Ziggy' etc. etc. are celebrated BUT never a word for 'BDB'.

Alice Cooper are truly nEgLECTED.

[Robbie]

There are many good points raised in the replies-while I appreciate there is little new in this thread (which is why I made apologies at the beginning) I feel that the omission is particularly galling in this case in the light of the breadth and scope of the rest of the book. I almost expect it of the kind of articles/programmes Concolz refers to-less so a book as good as this in every other respect.

[A_MichaelUK]

> I feel Alice is tons more relevent ,

Well, that's a surprise because your previous posts almost gave the opposite impression.

>but as a singles artist then no ! only had about half a dozen singles of chart value possibly less than The Osmonds or Mud ,

It isn't necessarily about how many there were but the impact they had. During that period and beyond, "School's Out", "Elected", "No More Mr. Nice Guy" and to a certain extent "Teenage Lament '74" were all - pervasive and one could argue they have lasted longer and better than anything by those other artists you mentioned.

[A_MichaelUK]

>I feel that the omission is particularly galling in this case in the light of the breadth and scope of the rest of the book.

I agree and almost made that the same point which is that a lot of the time, I don't care that Alice is excluded (or the band), but what makes it worse is when you see who is included (like the fiasco which is the Rock And Roll Hall Of Fame, for example).

[concolz]

With the passage of time, it's easy to forget just what 'outsiders' ACG were.

The music business, in general, didn't 'warm' to them, the critics mostly sneered and the press trashed them. Politicians railed against them, 'morality' campaigners were up in arms and the church even waded in to denounce them. Parents hated them, teachers loathed them, whilst the Bowie brigade and prog rockers curled their lip whenever ACG were mentioned.

The hippies and yippies cried 'sell out', the record shop assistants tutted 'disgraceful' and the broadcasters only featured them when they absolutely had to.

They made the front pages, they topped the charts, they made a pile of money and yet they were still outsiders. And that's the reason I loved them to death.

[A_MichaelUK]

>The music business, in general, didn't 'warm' to them, the critics mostly sneered and the press trashed them. Politicians railed against them, 'morality' campaigners were up in arms and the church even waded in to denounce them. Parents hated them, teachers loathed them, whilst the Bowie brigade and prog rockers curled their lip whenever ACG were mentioned.

This is one of the best posts ever on this site (although I'm not sure about "the Bowie brigade" part as there are people here who admire him as well). As concolz says, some people have forgotten or just don't know how hated(or maybe even feared) the band were
because of their image (or primarily Alice's persona and image). Even their own record company barely tolerated them until "School's Out" was a success.

[concolz]

This is one of the best posts ever on this site (although I'm not sure about "the Bowie brigade" part as there are people here who admire him as well).

Thanks for the compliment! Just to clarify - I should have added 'at my school' re-Bowie/prog rockers. I loved DB's records back then, but the reverse wasn't often true - at least in my class! Still, I was a very weird kid - I liked The Jackson Five, Black Sabbath, The Carpenters and Alice all at the same time! I never 'did' tribal.

[pitkin88]

> I feel Alice is tons more relevent ,

Well, that's a surprise because your previous posts almost gave the opposite impression.

>but as a singles artist then no ! only had about half a dozen singles of chart value possibly less than The Osmonds or Mud ,

It isn't necessarily about how many there were but the impact they had. During that period and beyond, "School's Out", "Elected", "No More Mr. Nice Guy" and to a certain extent "Teenage Lament '74" were all - pervasive and one could argue they have lasted longer and better than anything by those other artists you mentioned.

If there had been a proper tour of the UK then I have no doubt the sales of 45's and albums would have been way higher.

[Babysquid]

> I feel Alice is tons more relevent ,

Well, that's a surprise because your previous posts almost gave the opposite impression.

>but as a singles artist then no ! only had about half a dozen singles of chart value possibly less than The Osmonds or Mud ,

It isn't necessarily about how many there were but the impact they had. During that period and beyond, "School's Out", "Elected", "No More Mr. Nice Guy" and to a certain extent "Teenage Lament '74" were all - pervasive and one could argue they have lasted longer and better than anything by those other artists you mentioned.

If there had been a proper tour of the UK then I have no doubt the sales of 45's and albums would have been way higher.

Hello Hooray, No More Mr Nice Guy, Elected were all top 10, Teenage Lament top 20 and Schools Out was No.1! Plus Schools out was a top 10 album and B$B was a transatlantic chart topper. I don't think their sales were a problem.
As I've said elsewhere on this forum perceived rock history and what actually happened are very often 2 different things. Altamont killed the 60's, Punk killed all that came before, Grunge killed Corporate Rock, Britpop killed Grunge etc etc and a lot of stuff just gets forgotten.
I grew up in the 90's and whenever I read about that decade or see a documentary about it it's always the same old Nirvana, Blur, Oasis and the Spice Girls. Suede might get a mention as might Radiohead and the Fugees, but you'll never hear mention of Carter USM who were really popular in the early years, I mean you couldn't walk down the street without seeing one of their tee shirts. The
Levellers were another hugely popular band, everybody at school loved them. I remember reading the Melody Maker and being really surprised how they slagged them off. Extreme were very popular in the early post grunge years too but I guess they don't fit too well with the legend that is "Rock History"
I'm not particularly a fan of any of these bands but I do remember their popularity and ubiquitousness.
I actually think rock history has been kinder to Alice and the original band in more recent years and they are starting to get the respect they deserve. The love shown towards them on the Led Zeppelin forum is very encouraging. Also didn't the original group have 3 lps in the 1001 albums you need to hear before you die. I also think the growing ranks of those who take notice, and actually listen to the music has been helped in no small part by this excellent and extremely informative website. I may be a new member of the forum but I've been visiting the main site for years.
I think maybe Alice saying it was all a joke and just an act didn't really help his standing either. Before he started doing this a colleague at work who was around at the time told me once "what you don't realise it just how subversive they were seen as at the time"
I'll have to end this now as I'm in a rush it's my Mums birthday and I'm getting late!

[rgallie]

Hardly any mention of Alice Cooper, how ironic the book was named what it was though.

[andyrushworth]

https://scontent-a-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hph ... e=5464D53F

[MrD Returns]

Cool, another "Alice was snubbed in a book thread". How refreshing.