''What more was he supposed to do?''
Take that a step farther. He was the manager of a 'band', composed of five people. Thus, he was responsible for the financial and career betterment of all five - not just Alice. Shep foresaw the end and let things unravel, perhaps to the detriment of 4 of those 5. Was he wrong in doing so? I am sure he did not see what he did (or didn't do) as wrong, and likely there was no real malice. COULD he have stopped or slowed the breakup? In my opinion - Yes. BUT!!!! Consider this. How much should he have been involved with the prevention of the dissolution of the group? Does he risk possible legal action, by some in the group, if he becomes dictatorial? Perhaps it was better to keep his fingers out of the mess and let whatever happens - happen. It worked out for him and Alice...not so much for the others.
IMO, I can't give all the blame for the end of the band to Shep. Just my view that he didn't do more (or if he did - it was a failed attempt) to keep them together. But, even if that is the case...was he wrong? In the end, the band broke themselves up, as Andy said, and Shep kept the legal system out of it...maybe just barely.
Bob Greene, Billion Dollar Babies and the Break Up
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A_MichaelUK
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Re: Bob Greene, Billion Dollar Babies and the Break Up
> Thus, he was responsible for the financial and career betterment of all five - not just Alice.
That is correct.
>Shep foresaw the end and let things unravel,
That is incorrect. How did he foresee it? He TOLD at least one of the band members not to make a solo album. He TOLD them that Alice will want to make one as well. He knew Alice was as unhappy as they were (albeit for different reasons) and that if Alice made a solo album as well and had a good time, Alice might not want to return. On that basis, I still don't know what more he could have done.
> COULD he have stopped or slowed the breakup? In my opinion - Yes.
HOW!
> Does he risk possible legal action, by some in the group, if he becomes dictatorial? Perhaps it was better to keep his fingers out of the mess and let whatever happens - happen.
You really are just speculating though. For one thing, there indeed was a threat of Alice being sued once he refused to return, so there goes your theory. There is nothing that Shep did or didn't do that made it any more or any less likely. Did you know that Michael Bruce wanted to sue Alice (and maybe Shep, as well)? Did you know that it was Dennis who convinced him not to (partly as tactic to encourage Alice to return and partly because Dennis is an honourable man, although I'm not saying that Michael is not). At least Michael saw sense and made sure he didn't waste his time and money. It is almost laughable to suggest that Shep was some evil Svenagali that could control people who had their own free will. You are not asking the right question. As I said before, the issue is not that the band took a break - it's that they did not reconvene. At that point, I would agree that he probably did not try very hard to convince Alice to go back to them, but I'm not sure why he was supposed to, if Alice didn't want to. What was he supposed to do? Tell Alice that if he can't manage the band, he would quit?
> It worked out for him and Alice...not so much for the others.
So who's fault was that?
>IMO, I can't give all the blame for the end of the band to Shep.
It was the their fault, not his.
>Just my view that he didn't do more
Like what though?
>In the end, the band broke themselves up,
Exactly.
>as Andy said, and Shep kept the legal system out of it...
I think it's probably more accurate to say that one or two of the band came to their senses concerning that.
That is correct.
>Shep foresaw the end and let things unravel,
That is incorrect. How did he foresee it? He TOLD at least one of the band members not to make a solo album. He TOLD them that Alice will want to make one as well. He knew Alice was as unhappy as they were (albeit for different reasons) and that if Alice made a solo album as well and had a good time, Alice might not want to return. On that basis, I still don't know what more he could have done.
> COULD he have stopped or slowed the breakup? In my opinion - Yes.
HOW!
> Does he risk possible legal action, by some in the group, if he becomes dictatorial? Perhaps it was better to keep his fingers out of the mess and let whatever happens - happen.
You really are just speculating though. For one thing, there indeed was a threat of Alice being sued once he refused to return, so there goes your theory. There is nothing that Shep did or didn't do that made it any more or any less likely. Did you know that Michael Bruce wanted to sue Alice (and maybe Shep, as well)? Did you know that it was Dennis who convinced him not to (partly as tactic to encourage Alice to return and partly because Dennis is an honourable man, although I'm not saying that Michael is not). At least Michael saw sense and made sure he didn't waste his time and money. It is almost laughable to suggest that Shep was some evil Svenagali that could control people who had their own free will. You are not asking the right question. As I said before, the issue is not that the band took a break - it's that they did not reconvene. At that point, I would agree that he probably did not try very hard to convince Alice to go back to them, but I'm not sure why he was supposed to, if Alice didn't want to. What was he supposed to do? Tell Alice that if he can't manage the band, he would quit?
> It worked out for him and Alice...not so much for the others.
So who's fault was that?
>IMO, I can't give all the blame for the end of the band to Shep.
It was the their fault, not his.
>Just my view that he didn't do more
Like what though?
>In the end, the band broke themselves up,
Exactly.
>as Andy said, and Shep kept the legal system out of it...
I think it's probably more accurate to say that one or two of the band came to their senses concerning that.
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GNDM
Re: Bob Greene, Billion Dollar Babies and the Break Up
Andy - I think you are under-selling Shep's ability at managing. IF the money lay in having the band stay together....I have faith that Shep could have made that happen. Since the money was clearly more connected to Alice than the other four - it is just my view that Shep had no need (desire?) to use his influence to keep them together. Thus, when obstacles appeared he side-stepped them and let the course of events develop. I also assume he made a modest attempt at keeping the status-quo. (Maybe without much gusto?) However kudos to him for keeping the issue out of court and not alienating the other four members to a point where there could have been financial and personal damage. (Yes, I am aware of the 'almost' lawsuit) Just my opinion that Shep allowed the group to breakup - more than he did anything to foster the breakup.
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Mr.Bluelegs
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Re: Bob Greene, Billion Dollar Babies and the Break Up
Completely a speculative question but....If Mike B. didn't want to do a solo album, do you think the band would have taken time off and eventually broken up?
Re: Bob Greene, Billion Dollar Babies and the Break Up
I often wonder what would have happened if the band sued Alice for taking the bands name ( which they all owned ) and won. Would Alice have had the same success if he had to tour under Vince?
Re: Bob Greene, Billion Dollar Babies and the Break Up
OK the reason for my “ Conspiracy theory” is this…
Agreed , There here was no way for Shep to know what kind of answers the band would give to Greene for the book. BUT He DID know that the band was becoming more and more aggravated as Alice’s persona got more and more attention . What I am stating is, that maybe he thought that with this book, he could take a shot at an opportunity to stir up some already jealous feelings within the band. He also could have been using reverse physcology by the solo album statements. I know it’s a stretch, But not to far if you think about it, I mean this stuff used to happen all the time with other bands. Not exactly like this situation, but there are ways to make things happen in an off handed way. Shep and Alice are pretty smart guys. To me this is the reason that there hasn’t been a REAL reunion of sorts. It always earsier to manage one person than 5. Isn’t it a little too suspicious that Alice had his name changed in 1975 right when this all went down to protect the “ Brand name” leaving the guys out of further monies made. Sounds a little too cagey to me.
If you go back and read B$B’s Shep used reverse phsycology on the Binghmapton board members to keep from losing a show in the venue. Again this is all speculation for me.
Agreed , There here was no way for Shep to know what kind of answers the band would give to Greene for the book. BUT He DID know that the band was becoming more and more aggravated as Alice’s persona got more and more attention . What I am stating is, that maybe he thought that with this book, he could take a shot at an opportunity to stir up some already jealous feelings within the band. He also could have been using reverse physcology by the solo album statements. I know it’s a stretch, But not to far if you think about it, I mean this stuff used to happen all the time with other bands. Not exactly like this situation, but there are ways to make things happen in an off handed way. Shep and Alice are pretty smart guys. To me this is the reason that there hasn’t been a REAL reunion of sorts. It always earsier to manage one person than 5. Isn’t it a little too suspicious that Alice had his name changed in 1975 right when this all went down to protect the “ Brand name” leaving the guys out of further monies made. Sounds a little too cagey to me.
If you go back and read B$B’s Shep used reverse phsycology on the Binghmapton board members to keep from losing a show in the venue. Again this is all speculation for me.
Re: Bob Greene, Billion Dollar Babies and the Break Up
Also Shep didn't have to be a sven Gali to pull this off.. These guys were fried from constant touring drunk on booze stardom, you name it, Like they say...An empty cage rattles the most
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A_MichaelUK
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Re: Bob Greene, Billion Dollar Babies and the Break Up
>Andy - I think you are under-selling Shep's ability at managing.
That is ironic because I am often accused of doing the opposite. I guess that means I'm doing something right.
>IF the money lay in having the band stay together....I have faith that Shep could have made that happen.
HOW! Give me some specific steps he could have taken to ensure this. You have made this assertion several times, but you have provided no examples of what he could have done.
>Since the money was clearly more connected to Alice than the other four - it is just my view that Shep had no need (desire?) to use his influence to keep them together.
That is false, although I think I know what your point is. The reality is that the money from touring was split amongst the band equally (unless you have evidence to the contrary) as was money from record sales (although those took ages to start arriving). The money from the publishing was split between the publishers and the writers. However, if you saying that Alice was the commercial face of the band then that is correct.
>Thus, when obstacles appeared he side-stepped them and let the course of events develop. I also assume he made a modest attempt at keeping the status-quo. (Maybe without much gusto?)
I think that by 1974, he was as burnt - out as they were. I have never claimed that he put in a huge effort to stop them from disintegrating but he did make an effort. If that effort wasn't good enough for you or anyone else, then that's tough because you have seem to have gone from implying he made no effort to implying he didn't make enough of an effort. Which is it? How do you measure these things? Was he supposed to go on hunger - strike to prevent Michael from making a solo album?
>However kudos to him for keeping the issue out of court
Who says he did? I am not saying he didn't but I haven't seen any evidence that he did.
>and not alienating the other four members to a point where there could have been financial and personal damage.
Do you REALLY believe that?! Have you read Michael's book?!
>Just my opinion that Shep allowed the group to breakup - more than he did anything to foster the breakup.
It all depends on your interpretation but it's very simple - Alice made a solo album and didn't want to go back to the band which was his perogative. I don't know what you expect Shep to have done about that.
That is ironic because I am often accused of doing the opposite. I guess that means I'm doing something right.
>IF the money lay in having the band stay together....I have faith that Shep could have made that happen.
HOW! Give me some specific steps he could have taken to ensure this. You have made this assertion several times, but you have provided no examples of what he could have done.
>Since the money was clearly more connected to Alice than the other four - it is just my view that Shep had no need (desire?) to use his influence to keep them together.
That is false, although I think I know what your point is. The reality is that the money from touring was split amongst the band equally (unless you have evidence to the contrary) as was money from record sales (although those took ages to start arriving). The money from the publishing was split between the publishers and the writers. However, if you saying that Alice was the commercial face of the band then that is correct.
>Thus, when obstacles appeared he side-stepped them and let the course of events develop. I also assume he made a modest attempt at keeping the status-quo. (Maybe without much gusto?)
I think that by 1974, he was as burnt - out as they were. I have never claimed that he put in a huge effort to stop them from disintegrating but he did make an effort. If that effort wasn't good enough for you or anyone else, then that's tough because you have seem to have gone from implying he made no effort to implying he didn't make enough of an effort. Which is it? How do you measure these things? Was he supposed to go on hunger - strike to prevent Michael from making a solo album?
>However kudos to him for keeping the issue out of court
Who says he did? I am not saying he didn't but I haven't seen any evidence that he did.
>and not alienating the other four members to a point where there could have been financial and personal damage.
Do you REALLY believe that?! Have you read Michael's book?!
>Just my opinion that Shep allowed the group to breakup - more than he did anything to foster the breakup.
It all depends on your interpretation but it's very simple - Alice made a solo album and didn't want to go back to the band which was his perogative. I don't know what you expect Shep to have done about that.
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A_MichaelUK
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Re: Bob Greene, Billion Dollar Babies and the Break Up
>Completely a speculative question but....If Mike B. didn't want to do a solo album, do you think the band would have taken time off and eventually broken up?
I think so. It was almost inevitable. The same problems that existed would still have existed. I think Michael would still have wanted to make a solo abum even if he had been prevented from doing so. That is why Shep said (or claims he said), that there should be no break (they had most 1974 off anyway) or solo albums and that instead there should be one last album and tour. For anyone who hasn't seen it, watch the segment on this in the "Behind The Music" documentary.
I think so. It was almost inevitable. The same problems that existed would still have existed. I think Michael would still have wanted to make a solo abum even if he had been prevented from doing so. That is why Shep said (or claims he said), that there should be no break (they had most 1974 off anyway) or solo albums and that instead there should be one last album and tour. For anyone who hasn't seen it, watch the segment on this in the "Behind The Music" documentary.
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A_MichaelUK
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Re: Bob Greene, Billion Dollar Babies and the Break Up
>I often wonder what would have happened if the band sued Alice for taking the bands name ( which they all owned )
I am not convinced that they did own it. I believe that they were equal partners in their corporation but I don't think that necessarily means they owned the name though.
>Would Alice have had the same success if he had to tour under Vince?
The name was such a huge part of his image that without it, any impact would have been so much less than it had been. It is almost impossible to think of him as a public figure without it.
I am not convinced that they did own it. I believe that they were equal partners in their corporation but I don't think that necessarily means they owned the name though.
>Would Alice have had the same success if he had to tour under Vince?
The name was such a huge part of his image that without it, any impact would have been so much less than it had been. It is almost impossible to think of him as a public figure without it.
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A_MichaelUK
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Re: Bob Greene, Billion Dollar Babies and the Break Up
>It always earsier to manage one person than 5.
That is true but it wasn’t a problem before they had any success though. If you read between the lines, you will see what I mean.
> Isn’t it a little too suspicious that Alice had his name changed in 1975 right when this all went down to protect the “ Brand name” leaving the guys out of further monies made.
Well, what would you do if you were him and had been told not to use it? I don’t think he has ever denied that he did that to protect his own interests. Why is everyone else allowed to protect themselves but for some reason he is not?
>If you go back and read B$B’s Shep used reverse phsycology on the Binghmapton board members to keep from losing a show in the venue. Again this is all speculation for me.
There is no question that he was a genius but you really are attributing him with power that he really did not have.
That is true but it wasn’t a problem before they had any success though. If you read between the lines, you will see what I mean.
> Isn’t it a little too suspicious that Alice had his name changed in 1975 right when this all went down to protect the “ Brand name” leaving the guys out of further monies made.
Well, what would you do if you were him and had been told not to use it? I don’t think he has ever denied that he did that to protect his own interests. Why is everyone else allowed to protect themselves but for some reason he is not?
>If you go back and read B$B’s Shep used reverse phsycology on the Binghmapton board members to keep from losing a show in the venue. Again this is all speculation for me.
There is no question that he was a genius but you really are attributing him with power that he really did not have.
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A_MichaelUK
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Re: Bob Greene, Billion Dollar Babies and the Break Up
Also Shep didn't have to be a sven Gali to pull this off.. These guys were fried from constant touring drunk on booze stardom, you name it,
He was as well.
He was as well.
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A_MichaelUK
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Re: Bob Greene, Billion Dollar Babies and the Break Up
Also Shep didn't have to be a sven Gali to pull this off.. These guys were fried from constant touring drunk on booze stardom, you name it,
He was as well.
He was as well.
Re: Bob Greene, Billion Dollar Babies and the Break Up
Thoughtful observations here, but as Andy pointed out, ALL of them were burned out by substances of one sort or another, an incredible work schedule, anxieties and just needing a break. MANY bands have broken up for less. Sadly, the ACG had run their course. Maybe one more album/tour after MUSCLE OF LOVE, but probably not. A bummer as I would always like more, but that's the way it goes.
I found out about BDB in a CIRCUS article in Spring 1977 about the BATTLE AXE album and managed to find a paperback copy about six months later. Find it well written, but know the band is not crazy about it as it's not very flattering to most of them. Dennis is about the only one who comes off in a positive light.
I found out about BDB in a CIRCUS article in Spring 1977 about the BATTLE AXE album and managed to find a paperback copy about six months later. Find it well written, but know the band is not crazy about it as it's not very flattering to most of them. Dennis is about the only one who comes off in a positive light.
"I need everything the world owes me..."
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A_MichaelUK
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Re: Bob Greene, Billion Dollar Babies and the Break Up
> Sadly, the ACG had run their course.
I think that's true. Even Michael has changed his mind and has admitted this.
I think that's true. Even Michael has changed his mind and has admitted this.
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steven_crayn
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Re: Bob Greene, Billion Dollar Babies and the Break Up
don't you just love all these conspiracy theories (NOT) just as the mother of them all (Kennedy) rears its ugly head again.
There was no way the band was going to carry on without Glen as Dennis wouldn't have allowed it.
In an interview he talks about Muscle Of Love, GB and the break up
"I like the album except it really needed Glen. That's why it didn't flow like a complete album. But he had dropped out entirely by then. And for the first time ever, I found myself going against the majority vote, which was to replace him.
But the band began as friends and I wouldn't have given up on any of them. I wouldn't want them to give up on me, and I refused to give up on Glen. We all loved Glen, but the Don Quixote in me refused to allow the big business machine to rule over friendship. I knew he would be lost, and as it turned out, he was. My insistence on keeping him only added to the fractures in the band.
After our break, we thought we would all return refreshed, sign a significant new record deal, and finally have the funds to do what we had always strived toward. The Battle Axe album was going to be the next Alice Cooper album.
I didn't know about WTMN until it was released.
Once it finally sunk in that Alice wasn't going to honor our agreement, Mike Marconi and Bob Dolin became official Billion Dollar Babies. It was a solid band, and they loved music as much as we did. If the rest of us hadn't been so snagged in dealing with overwhelming legalities concerning the Alice Cooper name, we would have been fine. Despite the blizzard of distractions, we managed to pull off four spectacular theatrical shows. But without the finances to support that massive stage production, in the end, we suffered extreme losses"
It's bittersweet for me as I loved what the band did but if there had been no Welcome To My Nightmare we would have missed out on Alice Cooper (the solo artist) best album which is as good as anything the band did.
There was no way the band was going to carry on without Glen as Dennis wouldn't have allowed it.
In an interview he talks about Muscle Of Love, GB and the break up
"I like the album except it really needed Glen. That's why it didn't flow like a complete album. But he had dropped out entirely by then. And for the first time ever, I found myself going against the majority vote, which was to replace him.
But the band began as friends and I wouldn't have given up on any of them. I wouldn't want them to give up on me, and I refused to give up on Glen. We all loved Glen, but the Don Quixote in me refused to allow the big business machine to rule over friendship. I knew he would be lost, and as it turned out, he was. My insistence on keeping him only added to the fractures in the band.
After our break, we thought we would all return refreshed, sign a significant new record deal, and finally have the funds to do what we had always strived toward. The Battle Axe album was going to be the next Alice Cooper album.
I didn't know about WTMN until it was released.
Once it finally sunk in that Alice wasn't going to honor our agreement, Mike Marconi and Bob Dolin became official Billion Dollar Babies. It was a solid band, and they loved music as much as we did. If the rest of us hadn't been so snagged in dealing with overwhelming legalities concerning the Alice Cooper name, we would have been fine. Despite the blizzard of distractions, we managed to pull off four spectacular theatrical shows. But without the finances to support that massive stage production, in the end, we suffered extreme losses"
It's bittersweet for me as I loved what the band did but if there had been no Welcome To My Nightmare we would have missed out on Alice Cooper (the solo artist) best album which is as good as anything the band did.
Lead guitar on Social Debris. Album on iTunes, Amazon & Spotify, title track featured on TV
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Ted Sallis
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Re: Bob Greene, Billion Dollar Babies and the Break Up
It's not bittersweet to me as IMHO WTMN is nowhere near as good as anything the ACG did. In fact, the only thing that Alice has done since the breakup that I really like was his participation in the 'Flash Fearless vs The Zorg Women' soundtrack, on which he sang 2 songs. This was the 1st thing he did after the breakup.steven_crayn wrote:It's bittersweet for me as I loved what the band did but if there had been no Welcome To My Nightmare we would have missed out on Alice Cooper (the solo artist) best album which is as good as anything the band did.
Ted
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steven_crayn
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Re: Bob Greene, Billion Dollar Babies and the Break Up
That's your opinion but plenty would disagree with you.Ted Sallis wrote:It's not bittersweet to me as IMHO WTMN is nowhere near as good as anything the ACG did. In fact, the only thing that Alice has done since the breakup that I really like was his participation in the 'Flash Fearless vs The Zorg Women' soundtrack, on which he sang 2 songs. This was the 1st thing he did after the breakup.steven_crayn wrote:It's bittersweet for me as I loved what the band did but if there had been no Welcome To My Nightmare we would have missed out on Alice Cooper (the solo artist) best album which is as good as anything the band did.
Ted
I'm Flash & Space Pirates (as good as they are) better than Steven? nah I don't think so man!
Lead guitar on Social Debris. Album on iTunes, Amazon & Spotify, title track featured on TV
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steven_crayn
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Re: Bob Greene, Billion Dollar Babies and the Break Up
also Ted if you think Pretties For You is better than WTMN you are one strange person, but each to their own!
Lead guitar on Social Debris. Album on iTunes, Amazon & Spotify, title track featured on TV
Re: Bob Greene, Billion Dollar Babies and the Break Up
Dennis would have had no choice as he would have been outvoted. I find the WTMN comment hard to believe.steven_crayn wrote:don't you just love all these conspiracy theories (NOT) just as the mother of them all (Kennedy) rears its ugly head again.
There was no way the band was going to carry on without Glen as Dennis wouldn't have allowed it.
In an interview he talks about Muscle Of Love, GB and the break up
"I like the album except it really needed Glen. That's why it didn't flow like a complete album. But he had dropped out entirely by then. And for the first time ever, I found myself going against the majority vote, which was to replace him.
But the band began as friends and I wouldn't have given up on any of them. I wouldn't want them to give up on me, and I refused to give up on Glen. We all loved Glen, but the Don Quixote in me refused to allow the big business machine to rule over friendship. I knew he would be lost, and as it turned out, he was. My insistence on keeping him only added to the fractures in the band.
After our break, we thought we would all return refreshed, sign a significant new record deal, and finally have the funds to do what we had always strived toward. The Battle Axe album was going to be the next Alice Cooper album.
I didn't know about WTMN until it was released.
Once it finally sunk in that Alice wasn't going to honor our agreement, Mike Marconi and Bob Dolin became official Billion Dollar Babies. It was a solid band, and they loved music as much as we did. If the rest of us hadn't been so snagged in dealing with overwhelming legalities concerning the Alice Cooper name, we would have been fine. Despite the blizzard of distractions, we managed to pull off four spectacular theatrical shows. But without the finances to support that massive stage production, in the end, we suffered extreme losses"
It's bittersweet for me as I loved what the band did but if there had been no Welcome To My Nightmare we would have missed out on Alice Cooper (the solo artist) best album which is as good as anything the band did.