Your biggest disappointment in Alice's career

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Re: Your biggest disappointment in Alice's career

Post by A_MichaelUK » Wed Oct 09, 2013 7:10 pm

>The first one was a bloated cash grab and the second was a dishearteneing realization that no one in the organization was able to have the foresight and properly archive the band's history.

As previously discussed at another thread, that is not a very logical statement. With the exception of The Beatles (who were exceptional in almost everything they did) and possibly David Bowie, almost nobody who was in the middle of the craziness of the sixties and the seventies was interested in documenting their activities. It never occurred to them that almost fifty years later anyone would care and in relation to an "archive", both Neal and Dennis have their own extensive archives and Alice's own archive consist of literally thousands and thousands of individual items (and dozens of recordings) that you don't know even exist. Also, you are forgetting what Dennis has said many times which is that in the early days, they didn't have enough money to even create an "archive" in the first place and when they did have the resources, the pace of their lives was so frantic and hectic, they didn't have the time to do it.
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Re: Your biggest disappointment in Alice's career

Post by A_MichaelUK » Wed Oct 09, 2013 7:13 pm

>I'd like to ask

What "I'd like to ask" is why you suddenly seem so keen to find fault's in Alice's character? I don't think he ever declared himself to be a saint (the opposite, in fact). If you don't like Christian's that's fine, but if so, maybe you should say so.

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Re: Your biggest disappointment in Alice's career

Post by A_MichaelUK » Wed Oct 09, 2013 7:14 pm

>I'm not going to comment about personal decisions Alice has made because it's hard to put yourself in someone else's shoes without living their life and knowing all the facts.

Exactly. That doesn't stop people from being spiteful, though.

>Since people are griping I'll toss in something minor: It doesn't make sense to me that Alice consistently praises easy listening Burt Bacharach and wants to see him nominated for the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame but condemns modern acts like Mumford and Sons for not being Rock and Roll enough.

I understand your point but I think his point is that if someone like Gladys Knight And The Pips are in the Rock And Roll Hall Of Fame, then Burt Bacharach certainly should be as well.

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Re: Your biggest disappointment in Alice's career

Post by A_MichaelUK » Wed Oct 09, 2013 7:25 pm

>One other disappointment is the lack of live footage from some of the tours Alice has done throughout the years.

It exists from every tour (with the exception of maybe four tours that I can think of).

>It would be nice if some footage would resurface, if it was ever out there.

I don't know what you mean. In one form or another, a lot of it (although not all of it) has.
Last edited by A_MichaelUK on Wed Oct 09, 2013 8:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Your biggest disappointment in Alice's career

Post by tim10cc » Wed Oct 09, 2013 7:59 pm

A_MichaelUK wrote:One other disappointment is the lack of live footage from some of the tours Alice has done throughout the years.

Professionally shot footage exists from every tour (with the exception of maybe four tours that I can think of).

>It would be nice if some footage would resurface, if it was ever out there.

I don't know what you mean. In one form or another, a lot of it (although not all of it) has.
From the 77/78 tour there isn't a complete show..Would be nice to see what goes on during King of the Silver Screen. The Commercials would be interesting as well

Strange Case is great ...I just don't like them cutting some songs short and they missed "All strapped up"

Flush the fashion tour..the only thing I recall is the footage from Roadie and a few small news clips

Special forces, A few talk shows, the Paris Tv Special...How about an actual concert

Raise your fist..Loved the tour, love the extras on Prime Cuts, again, an entire show would be nice.

Dragontown, I did enjoy the setlist from Dragontown, for 2 reasons, Sanctuary and Fantasy Man.
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Re: Your biggest disappointment in Alice's career

Post by A_MichaelUK » Wed Oct 09, 2013 8:06 pm

1)The Operation Rock N Roll Tour. That tour had financial problems basically from day one and was poorly conceived.

It definitely was a bad idea but that can only be said with the benefit of hindsight though. The idea of a multiple artists bill at a cheap price was laudable but it coincided with a big change in musical tastes that was just about to happen.

> I really think there could be more done in way of promotion.

Like what? There were two promotional videos shot (three if you want to include "Feed My Frankenstein"), songs from it were played live, Alice did the usual round of extensive interviews for it, one of the live shows was televised (albeit heavily edited), there was a 'live in the studio' radio performance that was broadcast, there were promotional discs and memorabilia. Sometimes, it doesn't matter how much or little promotion there is - people either tune in or they do not.

> Take WTMN 2 for example (which I happen to love), there was no real pushing of the album in the live show

As has been discussed before, "the live show" is no longer considered to be necessary for promoting new material. We all know there are ways for anyone who wants to hear new material to do so without having to go and see that artist perform.

> By the time songs like "Caffeine" were added the album was an afterthought.

I agree but unfortunately that's what happens nowadays - albums are almost like loss leaders or something. In the past, the tour promoted the album but now the album promotes the tour and merchandise.

> I know people don't buy albums any more, but show more confidence in the album.

Alice loves that album (or did, the last time we talked about it). However, if it isn't a huge seller, it's hard to be confident that it will go down well with people that haven't heard it.

>4)The Raise the Dead section of the new tour. I think most Alice fans would rather hear four Alice songs than four cover tunes.

A fair point that has been discussed many times on this forum.

>5)Along the same lines, I would like to see a more diverse playlist.

A fair point that has been discussed many times on this forum but the answer is basically the same as in relation to "Welcome 2 My Nightmare".

>If someone is a true fan of a band, then they should know all the songs or most of them anyway.

That is a little arrogant of you but I understand your point. However, you're missing the point which (and again, this has been discussed many time), which is that not everyone "is a true fan" - many people who go to shows are casual admirers rather than dedicated and serious followwers.

>Someone like Alice (and many others) play smaller venues now which means many of the fans are diehards.

If only that were true.

> I know that Alice's management said they dropped "The Man Behind the Mask" in the United States because of the crowd not responding much.

Well, Alice is the one standing onstage looking out at the audience and he's the one who notices as much as anyone which songs get great reactions. It doesn't mean he's always right, but he's right more often than not.

>One, many fans have commented that was a highly for them.

Were they in the majority though?

> Two, using that argument with the exception of a few solo tunes like "Poison" and songs off of WTMN, they may as well drop all of those songs. Do people know "Dirty Diamonds" any more than they do "The Man Behind the Mask?"

"Dirty Diamonds" is a great audience participation song, though. I have to say, as much as I wanted (and lobbied for) "He's Back (The Man Behind The Mask)" to be included on this tour, I don't remember it getting a spectacularly great reaction either. It didn't get a bad reaction (far from it), but it wasn't as if the crowd reacted as if it was the greatest song they'd ever heard.

>It also wouldn't take a lot of time to perhaps put together a four or five minute melody of the early 80's album just doing some pieced together snippets.

"Clones (We're All)" was performed as recently as 2012 I think and "Who Do You Think We Are?" was performed as recently as 2004, so be grateful even for those as they were quite unexpected.

Those kinds of surprises are what often makes a show special.
7)Finally, and I am not sure this involves Alice much, but the touring stops that are made. There are so many cities that Alice would do well in that get ignored. Let me give you an example of something I don't understand.

>In the late 90's and early 2000's, Alice played the Tunica area several times and often sold out. For the last 10 years, he hasn't played there despite showing there is a fanbase.

That is a bit of a contradiction. Earlier you wrote "Some of the regular cities, Alice plays in have been overdone because Alice plays there every year." but now you're complaining that Tunica has been left off having been a regular stop on past tours. Maybe that's exactly way.

>Some of you would argue that is up to promoters, but that is not completely true.

It is actually 99.9% true - an artist can't just turn up somewhere without an offer from a promoter. It doesn't happen.

>A good friend of recently contacted a place in Memphis, Tennessee. According to the venue, they have requested and have had several fans ask for Alice and were told "Alice is skipping the market this year." Memphis is a market that hasn't been played for years.

With respect, you only have your friend's word for it and he only has their word for it as well. Also, even if a promoter (or venue) puts in a request, that request is handled by a booking agent who arranges the routing and negotiates the fees to be paid (although management obviously involved as well). I can totally assure you that Alice is happy to play almost anywhere but just because there is a demand in a specific place doesn't mean that it can be met (the fee offered may be too low, for example, or it might be too many shows in a row or something).

>I am sure those of you living in other areas would say the same thing.

There are places all over the world that would as well, but again that doesn't mean it can happen unfortunately.

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Re: Your biggest disappointment in Alice's career

Post by A_MichaelUK » Wed Oct 09, 2013 8:14 pm

>From the 77/78 tour there isn't a complete show..Would be nice to see what goes on during King of the Silver Screen. The Commercials would be interesting as well

Yes. That is one of the tours I was thinking of.

>Strange Case is great ...I just don't like them cutting some songs short and they missed "All strapped up"

Those were decisions made by the producers of the original film. I don't know what they did with the film that wasn't used.

>Flush the fashion tour..the only thing I recall is the footage from Roadie and a few small news clips

Yes, that was one of the tours I was thinking of.

>Special forces, A few talk shows, the Paris Tv Special...How about an actual concert

At least two exist. For what it's worth, they are not that great (although they're interesting).

>Raise your fist..Loved the tour, love the extras on Prime Cuts, again, an entire show would be nice.

I agree.

>Dragontown, I did enjoy the setlist from Dragontown, for 2 reasons, Sanctuary and Fantasy Man.

I agree although it kind of was basically the same as the "Brutal Planet" show (but not completely though). I actually don't know if one exists. I might look into it.

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Re: Your biggest disappointment in Alice's career

Post by cooperrocks » Wed Oct 09, 2013 8:27 pm

Thanks for the feedback Andy. I didn't mean to come across arrogant if that is the way it came across, I apologize.

I did a poor job of explaining my Tunica argument. What I meant to say was Tunica was a great draw for him and then no tours for a decade. I think some markets get played out for a while, which is why mixing them up seems to make since. For example, play Louisville one year, Nashville the next, etc. You are right the information I received came from a friend of mine and though I believe them, it is an assumption of validity on my part.

With the Hey Stoopid album, I just hate that the failure of Operation:Rock N Roll stalled possible momentum though the music scene was definitely beginning to change,so you are right.

I definitely was surprised when he played "Who Do You Think We Are?" Clones was a minor hit (which many people forget) so I wasn't quite surpried with that one. I like the song "Dirty Diamonds" but you bring up a good point about audience participation. Though I don't recall props being used for it, I remember during the Dragontown tour, the audience participated heavily in shouting "Hey, Hey" during the song "Fantasy Man." Thanks for your response, appreciate you.

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Re: Your biggest disappointment in Alice's career

Post by pitkin88 » Wed Oct 09, 2013 8:43 pm

A_MichaelUK wrote:>By the way, I Think the break up was necessary

As I said yesterday, even Michael Bruce looks at that event with more objectivity than he used to. It is a shame certain people aren't able to the same.

Why is it a shame?

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Re: Your biggest disappointment in Alice's career

Post by steven_crayn » Wed Oct 09, 2013 8:44 pm

pitkin88 wrote:
steven_crayn wrote:
cherrypie wrote:
Also I wish the BDB tour had come here to the UK. And I was gutted when the original band split up.
The power cuts of 73/74 were the reason the Billion Dollar Babies tour didn't come here but one of the biggest dissapointments for me was that the Madhouse Rock Tour never came to the UK.

Frankly I'm baffled how anyone can not love the From The Inside album it is easily Alice Cooper (the solo artist)second best solo effort after Welcome To My Nightmare.

The power cuts thing is BS. Where there no concerts during this time in the UK.

Kiki Dee, David Foster, Toto enough said.
The fuel crisis is the reason given as the cost of transporting the trucks and the extensive lighting etc.. for the show would have gone up a lot.

This also had the knock on effect of putting up the price of coal and the power cuts that followed as a result of the 3 day week.

You may choose to call Alice Cooper a liar but he talks about it in these 2 interviews at the time

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xy5jgc ... io-1_music

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xybyw8 ... 1974_music
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Re: Your biggest disappointment in Alice's career

Post by pitkin88 » Wed Oct 09, 2013 8:50 pm

A_MichaelUK wrote:>I believe he was playing that night

Absolutely false. He was not "playing" but did have a personal appearance that day (I think in Massachusetts) that had been booked and advertised. This was discussed at great length on another forum at the time with Brian Nelson and according to him, it would have beens difficult albeit not impossible for Alice to attend. Everything that GNDM wrote is correct. It was actually Alice himnself who felt his presence would be a hindrance and a distraction.

>wouldn't consider cancelling the show as he wanted the money.

Another false assumption.

Hardly false. So it wasn't a show it was a personal appearance he wouldn't cancel. I seem to remember a quote like " the show must go on ". I think this quote was also used when BR died.

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Re: Your biggest disappointment in Alice's career

Post by Lucius Morthem » Wed Oct 09, 2013 8:51 pm

The lack of live footage!! Yeah that's true

I Mean there are many shows that were recorded but not officialy released so...I Haven't watched them because I Can't get my hands on them. For example: Psychodrama Was recorded

Shows I'd love to see: PsychoDrama, Descent into Dragontown, Rock N Roll Carnival, Live in the flesh (I Think that's the name of RYF&Y), Special Forces, Strange Case COMPLETE And King Of The Silver screen, specially the face tv spots and KOTSS Live performance!

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Re: Your biggest disappointment in Alice's career

Post by pitkin88 » Wed Oct 09, 2013 8:53 pm

The power cuts of 73/74 were the reason the Billion Dollar Babies tour didn't come here but one of the biggest dissapointments for me was that the Madhouse Rock Tour never came to the UK.

Frankly I'm baffled how anyone can not love the From The Inside album it is easily Alice Cooper (the solo artist)second best solo effort after Welcome To My Nightmare.[/quote]


The power cuts thing is BS. Where there no concerts during this time in the UK.

Kiki Dee, David Foster, Toto enough said.[/quote]

The fuel crisis is the reason given as the cost of transporting the trucks and the extensive lighting etc.. for the show would have gone up a lot.

This also had the knock on effect of putting up the price of coal and the power cuts that followed as a result of the 3 day week.

You may choose to call Alice Cooper a liar but he talks about it in these 2 interviews at the time

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xy5jgc ... io-1_music

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xybyw8 ... 1974_music[/quote]



Yes we can believe everything Alice says. From what Amuk says Alice has barely anything to do with where and when he plays.

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Re: Your biggest disappointment in Alice's career

Post by A_MichaelUK » Wed Oct 09, 2013 8:55 pm

Thanks for the feedback Andy. I didn't mean to come across arrogant if that is the way it came across,

It didn't - there isn't a problem.

> I apologize.

No apology is necessary.

>I did a poor job of explaining my Tunica argument. What I meant to say was Tunica was a great draw for him and then no tours for a decade.

Yes, I got that but again, the world is a big place and without checking, I think there may have been some shows within a reasonable distance of that town, but I would need to check.

>I think some markets get played out for a while, which is why mixing them up seems to make since.

I agree some places are regular stops (more than others) but a lot of times, that's where the best offer came from or it was easier to get to or easier to leave from to get to the next city and all kinds of other factors.

>For example, play Louisville one year, Nashville the next, etc. You are right the information I received came from a friend of mine and though I believe them, it is an assumption of validity on my part.

I am not denying he told you the truth, but you don't know if they told him the truth or even if they gave him all the facts. What a lot of people here need to understand is that I'm not here to justify or make excuses or everything that does or doesn't happen. It is just that there is a lot (and I mean, a lot) that goes on in the background in any given situation whether it's cooking your own breakfast or booking a rock concert that people don't know about if it's not an environment they know anything about (and I'm not talking about anything sinister or secret). I wouldn't dare claim to know more or as much about a subject as someone who obviously does, but some people (especially online) do. Just because the reason for something isn't apparent does not mean there is no reason.

>I definitely was surprised when he played "Who Do You Think We Are?" Clones was a minor hit (which many people forget) so I wasn't quite surpried with that one.

I agree but it isn't as if Alice isn't aware that people want to hear this song or that song. The reality is that it isn't always possible for all kinds of reasons. I remember when "It's Hot Tonight" was performed in 2000 - I was staggered. I mean, if you want to talk about obscure, that's obscure, but there it was.

>I like the song "Dirty Diamonds" but you bring up a good point about audience participation. Though I don't recall props being used for it,

The necklaces that he throws into the audience which they fight over as if they were precious jewels.

> I remember during the Dragontown tour, the audience participated heavily in shouting "Hey, Hey" during the song "Fantasy Man."

One of the best songs on that album and which worked perfectly live (again, some songs work better live than others do).

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Re: Your biggest disappointment in Alice's career

Post by A_MichaelUK » Wed Oct 09, 2013 8:56 pm

>Why is it a shame?

Are you saying that not being objective (or reasonable and rational) is not a shame?

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Re: Your biggest disappointment in Alice's career

Post by A_MichaelUK » Wed Oct 09, 2013 9:00 pm

>Hardly false.

No, it's completely false. The implication in your statement was that the appearance was not cancelled due to "money". However, GNDM already explained the reality (I repeat, the reality, not what your prejudice tells you is the reality) about Alice's absence. Why was it so important to you that Alice attended Glen's funeral?

>So it wasn't a show it was a personal appearance he wouldn't cancel.

I can only refer you again to the answer that GNDM gave. If it doesn't fit your assumptions and preconceptions, that is out of his, or my, control.

> I seem to remember a quote like " the show must go on ". I think this quote was also used when BR died.

That is correct. Is there a problem?
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Re: Your biggest disappointment in Alice's career

Post by A_MichaelUK » Wed Oct 09, 2013 9:05 pm

>I Mean there are many shows that were recorded but not officialy released so...I Haven't watched them because I Can't get my hands on them. For example: Psychodrama Was recorded

It is up to the legitimate owners to release all that different footage.

>Shows I'd love to see: PsychoDrama,

At least two shows were filmed (actually, they were taped but never mind) and both of those were broadcast - the one you refer to and one in Switzerland as well.

>Descent into Dragontown,

I refer to my previous answer.

> Rock N Roll Carnival,

At least two different shows were broadcast - one in Hungary and one in Spain (this was one exists as two different edits also).

>Live in the flesh (I Think that's the name of RYF&Y),

I don't think a whole show was filmed but it's possible.

> Special Forces,

I refer to my earlier answer.
Last edited by A_MichaelUK on Wed Oct 09, 2013 9:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Your biggest disappointment in Alice's career

Post by darkmenace » Wed Oct 09, 2013 9:11 pm

""Dirty Diamonds" is a great audience participation song, though."

I consider DD one of the best live songs he's recorded in the last decade. The audience participation part is cool but to me the backbone is the song itself. I'd like to see him record more longer songs with different musical arrangements like this one.

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Re: Your biggest disappointment in Alice's career

Post by A_MichaelUK » Wed Oct 09, 2013 9:12 pm

>From what Amuk says Alice has barely anything to do with where and when he plays.

What I said is irrelevant because Alice has said it himself - whether you believe him or not is for you to decide. As usual you're missing the point - even if he DID have "anything to do with" it, he didn't have "anything to do with" the fuel crisis of 1974 and while I don't doubt there may have been other reasons, there's no question the cost of fuel may have made it extremely expensive to bring that show over and even today, the price of fuel can have an impact on a tour's profits and I assume you know that the price of fuel affects the price of almost every product and service you and I buy, so I'm not sure why you'd think a rock tour back then would have been any different.

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Re: Your biggest disappointment in Alice's career

Post by A_MichaelUK » Wed Oct 09, 2013 9:14 pm

>but to me the backbone is the song itself.

The music is always the most important thing so what you say is true.

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