A Connection...

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Re: A Connection...

Post by andyrew » Sat Jul 20, 2013 8:01 am

There is a connection with When Hell Comes Home and Only Women Bleed, as stated in my original post when W2MN came out. That connection is very obvious, since it is a sequel and is the other side to the story.. As for you and anyone not thinking other songs aren't connected, that's fine, we are all entitled to our own opinion.

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Re: A Connection...

Post by A_MichaelUK » Sat Jul 20, 2013 9:28 am

>The album deals with a lot of recurring themes and also real life themes that Alice was dealing with at the time.

Everything in this post is logical and plausible but there is NOTHING there that shows a specific connection with any of the songs on "Welcome To My Nightmare".

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Re: A Connection...

Post by A_MichaelUK » Sat Jul 20, 2013 9:43 am

I'm clearly not on here enough to be responding to every single post.

That is ridiculous. I am referring to two posts from the last day and in that time, you've spent plenty of time replying to MY posts.

>A lot of the time I like to read what people have to say and generally, they are respectful about what they say without thinking their word is be all end all.

That is pathetic. Stop being a martyr. I have been nothing less than civil to you in all my posts in this thread.

>You respond to every little thing about a post that shouldn't be about you thinking you know everything.

I can't control your perception and it isn't my problem.

>You come in and debate every little thing that I add to the discussion making this whole thread a joke now when it really shouldn't be.

You are beginning to sound like a baby or something. You have had MANY opportunities in this thread to show this connection you think may exist. Instead, you've spent most of your time bleating about someone who disagrees with your theory. Why don't you give us your theory of how those two songs are connected? Just saying that one song is about domestic abuse and the other has some lines that might be about domestic abuse (nobody here knows for sure) is not enough to sustain your theory. Do you have anything else to offer?

>I understand your dedication for coming in here and separating fact from fiction, but you don't know what happened on this matter either.

No, I don't but that doesn't mean that, because nobody knows, there is a connection. We also don't know for sure that "Special Forces" is about the Loch Ness monster, but that doesn't mean that it is.

>This is a clear indication of why I'm responding to you specifically.

YOU SAID YOU DON'T WANT TO DEBATE BUT YOU HAVE USED SEVERAL POSTS TO DEBATE WITH ME! If you didn't want to debate, you shouldn't have replied to my original post, just as you ignored the posts from killer wolf and While Heaven Wept - it really is that simple.

>That kind of remark is not necessary.

It is completely "necessary". I used that example to extend that way of thinking to its illogical conclusion.

> Be respectful of others' thoughts and opinions

Stop bleating and being such a delicate little flower - I have
always been civil to you in this thread. All my posts adhere to rules of this board. If you don't like that, ask the owner of this site to change the rules so that everyone here has to agree with your posts.

> others would have more respect for you.

I am not here to obtain "respect".

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Re: A Connection...

Post by A_MichaelUK » Sat Jul 20, 2013 9:55 am

>I Think Alice i more than proud of what he has achieved in life

Exactly. When he first decided to be in a band, it never occurred to him that he would go on to have the kind of career (and that is when you include the bad times as well) that he has had. It was inconceivable. I am sure there are people reading this who have tried to have careers in music as writers or performers and they will (or should) know how almost impossible it is to have a successful career, when having even a small amount of success depends on so many different factors. That is why I always find it hysterical when people (including some people here) say Alice's career is on the slide because as I said before, it depends on how you measure it - he still performs to hundreds of thousands of people every year and I am willing to bet that none of his detractors are doing that.
Last edited by A_MichaelUK on Sat Jul 20, 2013 10:03 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: A Connection...

Post by A_MichaelUK » Sat Jul 20, 2013 10:00 am

>There is a connection with When Hell Comes Home and Only Women Bleed, as stated in my original post when W2MN came out.

Now I am the one who is confused. Who said those songs were not connected? Your original thread was about a connection between "Welcome To My Nightmare" and "DaDa" only.

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Re: A Connection...

Post by While Heaven Wept » Sat Jul 20, 2013 10:00 am

andyrew - seriously mate, chill out!

I've actually really enjoyed reading Andy's posts on this thread as he has taken the time to listen to your theories maturely. If you re-read his posts you should find that he hasn't necessarily disagreed with any of your opinions, but has rightly questioned the facts and evidence.

My opinion on the matter - Alice's lyrics are often written with a fairly loose theme, leaving the listener to make up their own stories and interpret the songs however they wish. It's great that you interpret the songs the way you do.....however, in my opinion....I think it's highly unlikely that Alice intended most of these 'connections' that you have made given the complete lack of evidence to support it.

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Re: A Connection...

Post by While Heaven Wept » Sat Jul 20, 2013 10:44 am

Here's an example.... I am made of you

I've heard some people interpret this as Alice talking to Steven, or even Alice talking to Vincent.

For me, the lyrics sound quite spiritual and are talking about Vincent's relationship with God. But i'm probably way off the mark.

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Re: A Connection...

Post by wind_up_toy » Sat Jul 20, 2013 11:33 am

While Heaven Wept wrote:Here's an example.... I am made of you

For me, the lyrics sound quite spiritual and are talking about Vincent's relationship with God. But i'm probably way off the mark.
Rightly or wrongly, that was my interpretation.
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Re: A Connection...

Post by A_MichaelUK » Sat Jul 20, 2013 11:54 am

>For me, the lyrics sound quite spiritual and are talking about Vincent's relationship with God. But i'm probably way off the mark.

No, I think you are more or less correct. In fact, I think the song can be interpreted as being about any of the following:
- Alice (the artist) talking to God
- Alice (the artist) talking to the audience
- Alice (the character) talking to the audience
- Alice (the artist) talking to Sheryl
- Steven talking to Alice (the character)
- Alice (the character) talking to Alice (the artist)
- Alice (the artist) talking to Alice (the character).

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Re: A Connection...

Post by andyrew » Sat Jul 20, 2013 4:34 pm

My original thread also mentioned the link with when hell comes home at the end and Pitkin88 said he doesn't see a connection between any of the songs or albums I mentioned. So when I'm pointing that out, I'm responding to that.

As for everything else, we clearly have differences and I'm not going to further this argument.

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Re: A Connection...

Post by A_MichaelUK » Sat Jul 20, 2013 6:35 pm

>My original thread also mentioned the link with when hell comes home at the end and Pitkin88 said he doesn't see a connection between any of the songs or albums I mentioned. So when I'm pointing that out, I'm responding to that.

My mistake. However, I meant to say "Your "original post in this thread" not "Your original thread". Since you were replying to pitkin88, it would have helped if you had quoted the text from pitkin88 that you were referring to otherwise it can be hard to work out what the point you're making is. As for the link between "Only Women Bleed" and "When Hell Comes Home", that's an interesting idea because in the first song, it could be argued Steven is the perpetrator and in the second, he is an observer.

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Re: A Connection...

Post by andyrew » Sat Jul 20, 2013 8:22 pm

> My mistake. However, I meant to say "Your "original post in this thread" not "Your original thread". Since you were replying to pitkin88, it would have helped if you had quoted the text from pitkin88 that you were referring to otherwise it can be hard to work out what the point you're making is.

I can't copy and paste text on my phone and I'm not always on a computer, which is why I couldn't have quoted his text and is why I don't quote on here sometimes.

>As for the link between "Only Women Bleed" and "When Hell Comes Home", that's an interesting idea because in the first song, it could be argued Steven is the perpetrator and in the second, he is an observer.

It seems to me that it is a possible prequel to "Only Women Bleed." Maybe a memoir that Steven comes across during the nightmare. I find it interesting that it is the only song in W2MN that explores that relationship. Every other song seems to connect the general nightmare without referencing the specific events that occurred in WTMN...unless I'm missing something.

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Re: A Connection...

Post by A_MichaelUK » Sat Jul 20, 2013 8:43 pm

>I can't copy and paste text on my phone and I'm not always on a computer,

Maybe you should only post when you can. It isn't like there's a deadline or anything.

>It seems to me that it is a possible prequel to "Only Women Bleed."

I agree.

> Maybe a memoir that Steven comes across during the nightmare. I find it interesting that it is the only song in W2MN that explores that relationship.

Exactly, which is why it was just a little bit of a stretch to call "Welcome 2 My Nightmare" a sequel since, it really is a new series of vignettes rather than a continuation of the first album.

>Every other song seems to connect the general nightmare without referencing the specific events that occurred in WTMN...

I agree and that's why I don't think "Welcome 2 My Nightmare" was a sequel (and while we're on the subject, I don't think "Alice Cooper Goes To Hell" was either, as I think someone here once remarked).

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Re: A Connection...

Post by andyrew » Sat Jul 20, 2013 9:07 pm

> Maybe you should only post when you can. It isn't like there's a deadline or anything.

If I were to do that, there wouldn't be many posts I would be able to contribute to before the active thread dies down.

>Exactly, which is why it was just a little bit of a stretch to call "Welcome 2 My Nightmare" a sequel since, it really is a new series of vignettes rather than a continuation of the first album.

Alice always said that W2MN was a whole new nightmare anyways. After 36 years, I think he thought it would be difficult to recapture the kind of magic he had with WTMN, since the whole idea of making WTMN a broadway type of album was a new idea back then and he could easily shock an audience. I think with W2MN, he wanted to update the sound, pay tribute to many different artists that inspired him throughout his career, while paying tribute to some of the old sounds that made the first WTMN concept a success.

I agree and that's why I don't think "Welcome 2 My Nightmare" was a sequel (and while we're on the subject, I don't think "Alice Cooper Goes To Hell" was either, as I think someone here once remarked).

Alice Cooper Goes To Hell is considered an unofficial sequel to some, since a lot think that after the nightmare he goes to hell. But, if it was intended as a sequel, there probably would have been a mention of Steven somewhere in the album and the album would have been called "Steven Goes to Hell." Again, since that has been interpreted as a sequel, it shows that Alice's lyrics and themes can receive different perceptions from different people.

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Re: A Connection...

Post by A_MichaelUK » Sat Jul 20, 2013 9:43 pm

>If I were to do that, there wouldn't be many posts I would be able to contribute to before the active thread dies down.

We can wait. People often (although not often enough) revive old threads (which is preferable to creating a new one on the same subject).

>Alice always said that W2MN was a whole new nightmare anyways.

I don't recall that but even if he did say that, he also referred to it as "part two" which implies it was sequel. I think the official press release said that as well.

> of making WTMN a broadway type of album was a new idea back then and he could easily shock an audience.

Well, there was nothing particularly that shocking about the record unless you're referring to the "broadway" part, although "Only Women Bleed" could be the exception.

>I think with W2MN, he wanted to update the sound, pay tribute to many different artists that inspired him throughout his career,

That is possible but I'm not so sure. However, there are a lot of musical references or 'musical in - jokes' on it.

> But, if it was intended as a sequel, there probably would have been a mention of Steven somewhere in the album

Well, he kind of is. Read the introduction on the inner sleeve. The album is a bedtime story that is being to told to Steven about Alice (on this album, Alice is having the nightmare, not Steven) and at the end, Steven is invited to go to sleep and have the same nightmare that Alice just had. No wonder some people can't work out what the whole Steven concept is about.

> it shows that Alice's lyrics and themes can receive different perceptions from different people.

I don't think anyone has ever denied that.

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Re: A Connection...

Post by andyrew » Sat Jul 20, 2013 10:14 pm

> I don't recall that but even if he did say that, he also referred to it as "part two" which implies it was sequel. I think the official press release said that as well.

I remember him saying that many times before the album was released. I'm not refuting that it is a sequel, but it isn't a direct sequel that follows part 1.

>Well, there was nothing particularly that shocking about the record unless you're referring to the "broadway" part, although "Only Women Bleed" could be the exception.

That's debatable, as Welcome to my Nightmare, Steven, Years Ago and The Black Widow offer enough shocks and thrills to keep the audience entertained. I'm also referring to the fact that the album itself was different than the previous ones he had released.

> That is possible but I'm not so sure. However, there are a lot of musical references or 'musical in - jokes' on it.

The Last Man on Earth was a Tom Waits inspired song, The Underture was inspired by the WHO, I'll Bite Your Face Off was inspired by the Rolling Stones and Ghouls Gone Wild was inspired by the Beach Boys...so there are a few throughout the album that Alice has repeatedly mentioned in interviews and articles that inspired him to produce those kind of songs.

>Well, he kind of is. Read the introduction on the inner sleeve. The album is a bedtime story that is being to told to Steven about Alice (on this album, Alice is having the nightmare, not Steven) and at the end, Steven is invited to go to sleep and have the same nightmare that Alice just had. No wonder some people can't work out what the whole Steven concept is about.

I haven't read the inner sleeve from ACGTH in a while but you make a good point. It's too bad Alice couldn't follow WTMN with a sequel at the time rather than taking a new approach into Disco with a loosely based concept around Steven. Other fans who wanted more of a direct sequel would have probably been more satisfied if that was done.

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Re: A Connection...

Post by A_MichaelUK » Sat Jul 20, 2013 10:34 pm

> but it isn't a direct sequel that follows part 1.

I agree.

>That's debatable, as Welcome to my Nightmare, Steven, Years Ago and The Black Widow offer enough shocks and thrills to keep the audience entertained.

What is so shocking about them?

> I'm also referring to the fact that the album itself was different than the previous ones he had released.

Yes, but that's 'shocking' in a different way.

>.so there are a few throughout the album that Alice has repeatedly mentioned in interviews and articles that inspired him to produce those kind of songs.

I agree but that doesn't make them tributes as such though. Otherwise, you could say "Dance Yourself To Death" is a tribute to The Rolling Stones, as well. The songs you mentioned are definitely in the styles you refer to though and there are other songs on the album one can say that about as well.

>at the time rather than taking a new approach into Disco with a loosely based concept around Steven.

He didn't, though. That's just one song on the album and besides, it would be weird to make an album based in Hell, where Hell is a disco, unless you do a disco song. As to the "concept", I think it was you that said it's called "Alice Cooper Goes To Hell" not "Steven Goes To Hell", so I don't think Steven is the protagonist on the album.

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Re: A Connection...

Post by Nick » Sun Jul 21, 2013 4:17 pm

While Heaven Wept wrote:Here's an example.... I am made of you

I've heard some people interpret this as Alice talking to Steven, or even Alice talking to Vincent.

For me, the lyrics sound quite spiritual and are talking about Vincent's relationship with God. But i'm probably way off the mark.
I think Vincent's relationship with God was the forefront inspiration for the song too. But as has been pointed out by Andy, the lyrics are left with just the right amount of ambiguity for it to be interpreted in several different ways, some of which include the steven character talking to alice or vice versa or something altogether different. I don't necessarily agree with alice's views on religion, and I like the fact that he has carefully straddled that line when it comes to songs like I am made of you in that he doesn't beat you over the head with the religion aspect. if that's what you take out of the song, that's fine and totally valid. equally as valid, in my opinion, are some other interpretations.
my interpretation of the song is a totally personal one relating to a major (non religious) event in my life which made it one of my favourite songs in his entire catalogue.

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Re: A Connection...

Post by killer wolf » Tue Apr 01, 2014 11:06 am

yeah, i exhumed this thread, lol.
was listening to stuff on the commute and started idly thinking that the guy in Sex Death & Money might be the guy who ended up on the Inside lusting after Nurse Rozetta.

of no consequence, just thought i'd post it, lol.
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Re: A Connection...

Post by tuneylune » Sat Apr 05, 2014 9:08 am

I thought the same thing, practically from the start of reading this thread. :rotfl: :rotfl: ...I do have too much time on my hands, it seems :laugh: .
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