Not this time

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The son of Don Quijote
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Re: Not this time

Post by The son of Don Quijote » Sun Jun 09, 2013 4:40 pm

You understood me wrong Robbie. I didn't say they haven't got any impact and they don't matter at all. Let me clarify. If the band is playing AWFULLY and the songs are just plain BAD, the concert can't be saved no matter how brilliant the theatrics are. I'm just repeating what Alice has said for years. You can't have an icing without the cake. I'm not saying I would prefer an Alice show with no theatrics at all.

But if there was an absurd situation where I had to choose between the brilliant theatrical spectacle (with a sloppy band and bad songs) and stripped down show (no theatrics but with good songs and a tight band), I would choose the latter. Luckily there won't be such a situation.

Welcome To My Nightmare, The Nightmare Returns and Theater of Death are my favorite Alice Cooper DVD's in that order. But without good songs and top musicianship those DVD's would be just an inventive puppet show. No this is NOT my favorite Alice Cooper tour ever(Not the best set list, not the best show). Do you understand now what I mean. Icing is tasty but it doesn't really matter without the CAKE. Theatrics enhance the live experience but they can't make up for it if everything else goes wrong (Alice singing is in bad form and the band is very sloppy).

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Re: Not this time

Post by GailsFriend » Sun Jun 09, 2013 4:42 pm

Just to show you what I am talking about....

check this out...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLpRg1DeupM
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Re: Not this time

Post by The son of Don Quijote » Sun Jun 09, 2013 4:44 pm

You understood me wrong Robbie. I didn't say they haven't got any impact and they don't matter at all. Let me clarify. If band is playing AWFULLY and the songs are just plain BAD, the concert can't be saved no matter how brilliant the theatrics are. I'm just repeating what Alice has said for years. You can't have an icing without the cake. I'm not saying I would prefer an Alice show where there is no theatrics at all.

But if there was an absurd situation where I had to choose between the brilliant theatrical spectacle (with a sloppy band and bad songs) and stripped down show (no theatrics but with good songs and a tight band), I would choose the latter. Luckily there won't be such a situation.

Welcome To My Nightmare, The Nightmare Returns and Theater of Death are my favorite Alice Cooper DVD's in that order. But without good songs and top musicianship those DVD's would be just an inventive puppet show. No this is not my favorite Alice Cooper tour ever(Not the best set list, not the best show). Do you understand now what I mean. Icing is tasty but it doesn't really matter without the cake.
Theatrics enhance the live experience but they don't make up for it, if everything else goes wrong (Alice voice is in bad shape and band is very sloppy).

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Re: Not this time

Post by GailsFriend » Sun Jun 09, 2013 5:12 pm

There is plenty of "cake" if you look at the link I provided...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLpRg1DeupM
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Re: Not this time

Post by A_MichaelUK » Sun Jun 09, 2013 5:31 pm

>Alice + great band+ great songs+theatrics = "Welcome to my Nightmare", "The Nightmare Returns", "Brutal Planet" Theatre of Death" :

It isn't possible or practical to always put on those kind of shows though.

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Re: Not this time

Post by alicebackstage » Sun Jun 09, 2013 8:08 pm

Just wanted to say that I checked our itinerary and there is ONE show where Manson is going on after Alice and that is in Bonner Springs, KS on June 27th. Alice's show time is 8PM, Manson's show time is 9:40PM. I am not sure if this is a promoter thing or a schedule thing on our end. We do have an 8 hour drive overnight to Rockford afterwards, so it may be a logistical thing that I'm not aware of.

We will be playing the same show, nothing changes in that respect. But I just wanted to be clear that I wasn't 100% correct on Alice closing ALL of the shows, there is one exception. This doesn't classify as "opening" for Manson just as Manson isn't "opening" for Alice on the rest of the tour. It's a double bill, and Picture Me Broken is the opener.

On another note, the Montebello, Quebec show is apparently a 60 min set instead of the 70 min set. No word on how the show will be shortened.

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Re: Not this time

Post by Robbie » Sun Jun 09, 2013 9:31 pm

Thanks for clarifying Don Quijote- the thing is, I have never seen a poor Alice Cooper band and I have seen every tour since Special Forces. Of course a brilliant theatrical show without a decent band would be rubbish but quite frankly, Alice always has great bands so it isn't going to happen!!! I just wish he would get back to shows on the scale of the 80's and 70's, but I accept Andy Michael's point on this thread and previous threads, that given the current economic circumstances, maybe it can't be done.
What puzzles me though (and maybe Andy can help out here) how come things have changed so much in just over a decade?-am thinking back to "Brutal Planet" Moreover, in the four years since "Theatre of Death" what has changed so much?- as I stated on previous threads theatrical impact is not necessarily the cost, it's as much imagination- something Alice, (over the years), has proved he has in "spade loads".

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Re: Not this time

Post by Daggers & Contracts » Sun Jun 09, 2013 9:59 pm

What if... Alice came out and played "Pretties For You" and "Easy Action" in their entirety? Sure the hardcore fans would say "Yes!!!!" I was at a John Fogerty show where Bonnie Raitt opened and he did NO CCR tunes, it was announced in the media before the show. What did I hear the audience griping about after the show? No CCR!
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Re: Not this time

Post by Lucius Morthem » Sun Jun 09, 2013 11:56 pm

Robbie wrote:Thanks for clarifying Don Quijote- the thing is, I have never seen a poor Alice Cooper band and I have seen every tour since Special Forces. Of course a brilliant theatrical show without a decent band would be rubbish but quite frankly, Alice always has great bands so it isn't going to happen!!! I just wish he would get back to shows on the scale of the 80's and 70's, but I accept Andy Michael's point on this thread and previous threads, that given the current economic circumstances, maybe it can't be done.
What puzzles me though (and maybe Andy can help out here) how come things have changed so much in just over a decade?-am thinking back to "Brutal Planet" Moreover, in the four years since "Theatre of Death" what has changed so much?- as I stated on previous threads theatrical impact is not necessarily the cost, it's as much imagination- something Alice, (over the years), has proved he has in "spade loads".
I Like Raise the dead and blah blah blah You know my opinion BUT, It's true in a few years, the show are not as theatrical as they were, I Think it is also because, as you cannot shock and audience, they think it's better to give them a rock n roll show instead of a nightmare ?

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Re: Not this time

Post by Somwhere In Auckland » Sun Jun 09, 2013 11:59 pm

I am always a big fan of artists that release a new album then go out and tour it. When was the last time Alice did that properly? Wasn't there talk of a tour for ACAS? that turned into theater of death with just Vengeance. Then talk of a nightmare tour that eventuated in the current show.

The last time he got it perfect was brutally live, set consisted of Half Brutal Planet, all the classics, and a few rarer songs he hadn't done in a while, all with enough theatrics.

Time will tell what the tour will look like next year, is it really still too late to do a nightmare type show in 2014? Last Temptation came out in 1994 and Alice was doing carnival type shows still in 99, (I know the carnival shows wernt a direct tour for temptation) but you still got the impression if was for that album with the themes.

So far next year we have a "fun" covers album coming .. and a whole calendar year for a new tour (correct me if i'm wrong thinking the current tour ends in December?)

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Re: Not this time

Post by GNDM » Mon Jun 10, 2013 1:09 am

tim10cc....I think you might have found some buttons.

:evil:

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Re: Not this time

Post by Lucius Morthem » Mon Jun 10, 2013 3:56 am

The last properly conceptual tour of an album could be Descent into Dragontown or The Bare bones when he played new songs and forggoten ones

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Re: Not this time

Post by wind_up_toy » Mon Jun 10, 2013 5:53 am

I agree with the Brutal Planet tour comment, a good balance was found between new, classic and rare songs (even a cover was thrown in).
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Re: Not this time

Post by A_MichaelUK » Mon Jun 10, 2013 9:22 am

>What puzzles me though (and maybe Andy can help out here) how come things have changed so much in just over a decade?-am thinking back to "Brutal Planet"

A lot has happened since then - there has been the advent of Napster (which was actually before that album but at around the same time), the proliferation of illegal downloading, YouTube, Spotify, iTunes and the rise of social media. People treat and consume entertainment and culture in a completely different way compared with the way that was done in right up to the start of the current millennium and it was around the time of the album you refer to that the recording industry went into a downward spiral.

>Moreover, in the four years since "Theatre of Death" what has changed so much?- as I stated on previous threads theatrical impact is not necessarily the cost, it's as much imagination- something Alice, (over the years), has proved he has in "spade loads".

No. The financial burden is probably the biggest factor in all this. You should never underestimate that. What you don’t understand is that most tours are set up many months in advance and most artists of Alice’s stature will have an idea what their income from a tour is going to be before the tour even starts (they can also be paid in advance as well), so if you know what your income is going to be, you need to have an idea of how much you want to be left with as profit at the end of the tour (otherwise, there’s no point going on the road) and once you know that, then you know how much you can afford to spend on a production that you need to take with you all over the world and which will work in different kinds of venues as well. It is pretty simple arithmetic, really.

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Re: Not this time

Post by A_MichaelUK » Mon Jun 10, 2013 9:25 am

>What if... Alice came out and played "Pretties For You" and "Easy Action" in their entirety? Sure the hardcore fans would say "Yes!!!!"

If that did happen, pretty much the only people at the shows would be "the hardcore fans" and if that happened, he would be performing in smaller venues than he already does and making much less money than he already does which would make it less likely there would be any more tours. Is that really people here want? This has been discussed MANY times before on this site.

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Re: Not this time

Post by A_MichaelUK » Mon Jun 10, 2013 9:31 am

>I am always a big fan of artists that release a new album then go out and tour it.

Again, this has been discussed here a BILLION times before on this site. Go back and read some older posts. You will find less and less 'classic artists' (such as Alice) are actually doing that. The reality is the majority of the audience at any given show doesn't want to hear new or unfamiliar material and if they do, they can hear it online - it isn't the sixties, seventies, eighties or nineties any more when if the radio didn't play your favourite artist's or band's material, you had to go to a concert to hear it. It really doesn't work like that now and it's weird that so many people here don't seem to realise it.

>When was the last time Alice did that properly? Wasn't there talk of a tour for ACAS? that turned into theater of death with just Vengeance. Then talk of a nightmare tour that eventuated in the current show.

Yes, that's all true. So what, though? Things change.

> but you still got the impression if was for that album with the themes.

Really? I didn't and neither Alice nor any of the tour advertising ever implied that.

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Re: Not this time

Post by A_MichaelUK » Mon Jun 10, 2013 9:32 am

>tim10cc....I think you might have found some buttons.

No, not really. He is just very uninformed, that's all (which is nothing new on this site).

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Re: Not this time

Post by wind_up_toy » Mon Jun 10, 2013 9:45 am

Andy, say Alice decided (for whatever reason) that he wanted to play something like the Dirty Diamonds album from start to finish as a one-off thing at a venue like Club 100. Would that be even remotely conceivable from a cost / organisational perspective if subject to minimal props and during an already planned trip to the UK with the band?

The comparison I guess is the Club 100 gig from 2 years ago where a decision was made by someone (Alice?) to perform material that was not in keeping with the tour at the time.

As you rightly point out, only a select bunch would attend a full tour of diverse material. However, I'd be keen to understand what the barriers were to something like the above. I assume a mixture of overall appetite and essentially having to work harder for less reward?
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Re: Not this time

Post by revinkevin » Mon Jun 10, 2013 10:28 am

The last time he got it perfect was brutally live, set consisted of Half Brutal Planet, all the classics, and a few rarer songs he hadn't done in a while, all with enough theatrics.



Agree 100%. The shows the past few years have become predictable.

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Re: Not this time

Post by A_MichaelUK » Mon Jun 10, 2013 10:37 am

> Would that be even remotely conceivable from a cost / organisational perspective if subject to minimal props and during an already planned trip to the UK with the band?

How much is the ticket price going to be? Also, you’re assuming the artist makes these decisions.

>The comparison I guess is the Club 100 gig from 2 years ago where a decision was made by someone (Alice?) to perform material that was not in keeping with the tour at the time.

Yes, but that was done primarily for fun and to create some ‘buzz’ for the album and the box set but fun doesn’t pay the bills. The fact that something like that happens so rarely tells you all you need to know.

>As you rightly point out, only a select bunch would attend a full tour of diverse material. However, I'd be keen to understand what the barriers were to something like the above. I assume a mixture of overall appetite and essentially having to work harder for less reward?

It is primarily about the economics of a situation and it would be naïve to think that is not the case - that’s why it’s called ‘the music business’ not ‘the fun business’.

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