Frank Sinatra Did Not Cover "You And Me" By Alice Cooper

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Re: Frank Sinatra Did Not Cover "You And Me" By Alice Cooper

Post by darkmenace » Mon Dec 17, 2012 12:30 am

"Robbie - I understand Toronto Bob's view in the context of Alice putting forth inaccurate or wrong information about the past. Someone seeking historical facts could be put off by Alice's embellished tales. However, I see the reasons behind Alices' yarns....PR, creating quality interviews, and a way of entertaining the fans - many of them more interested in a good story as opposed to exact facts. Alice is in the entertainment business after all."

I agree with this but like anything else it's a matter of degree. There's embellishing, which is a lot of fun and makes for a better story and generally accepted by people. But if someone tells too many out and out lies this will eventually hurt their credibility. I have my doubts about several Alice stories that he repeats but nothing so far that is terribly out of the ordinary for public figures who try to "spin" things for their own reasons.

I was just reading a book about Jackie Gleason, he used to tell some real whoppers!

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Re: Frank Sinatra Did Not Cover "You And Me" By Alice Cooper

Post by GNDM » Mon Dec 17, 2012 1:48 am

darkmenace wrote: But if someone tells too many out and out lies this will eventually hurt their credibility. I have my doubts about several Alice stories that he repeats but nothing so far that is terribly out of the ordinary for public figures who try to "spin" things for their own reasons.
I agree that Alice's credibility when telling his "stories" from the past, puts a strain on his overall credibility - when it comes to getting accurate and correct details about the history of Alice Cooper.

But let's remember that these stories or incidents he embellishes are not THAT important in the overall scheme of things. It isn't like he is telling falsehoods that will hurt others or cost lives. The stories that Alice tells make little difference to most and only hardcore fans would even care or know that they are not 100% accurate. No history book will note if and when a snake came up in Charley Prides' toilet, or that Alice's song was covered (or not) by Sinatra. To 99.9% of the world - the response will be - Who Cares!!!??? Alice is not seen as a sage, prophet, saint, or healer by most....so let him entertain.

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Re: Frank Sinatra Did Not Cover "You And Me" By Alice Cooper

Post by wind_up_toy » Mon Dec 17, 2012 7:36 am

Interesting discussion!

In my opinion, Alice's anecdotes (whether true or not) don't have the potential to harm any of us in any way so I don't see the problem. They're highly entertaining after all! But... If he said he was going to perform on a certain date then turned up the day before, well that would be a different matter. He really doesn't owe us any more than that though!

To put this in context, I recall the 'Living With Michael Jackson' documentary from 10 years ago when MJ claimed that the mother of his white child was black. Now that was a real porker!
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Re: Frank Sinatra Did Not Cover "You And Me" By Alice Cooper

Post by A_MichaelUK » Mon Dec 17, 2012 12:56 pm

>I agree that Alice's credibility when telling his "stories" from the past, puts a strain on his overall credibility - when it comes to getting accurate and correct details about the history of Alice Cooper.

That would depend on whether or not he has sworn to tell the truth. Since he hasn't, it (as you go on to say) is irrelevant.

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Re: Frank Sinatra Did Not Cover "You And Me" By Alice Cooper

Post by recoop » Mon Dec 17, 2012 1:35 pm

I am lucky to have been a fan of AC since early 70s and can remember occasions with Alice admitting he embellishes tales-just had a quick look on this sites archive of press coverage and there is an article (Beetle Oct 73 re MOL/Tornonto) which illustrates Alice's openness that he doesn't let the truth get in the way of a good PR story(i think his girlfriend at time he even says something like you're such a liar)..even discusses Alice making up rumours re himself- Its really been a staple of Alice since pretty much the beginning-as said before its not compulsive imho its more about manipulation to create myth/PR...but it can't be surprising, can it, after 40 years plus of tall tale telling..Of course this doesn't make it morally right, credible etc but I have never expected this from him.(That article also shows at least some writers at the time credited the band's influence on Bowie, NYD's )
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Re: Frank Sinatra Did Not Cover "You And Me" By Alice Cooper

Post by A_MichaelUK » Mon Dec 17, 2012 3:11 pm

>I am lucky to have been a fan of AC since early 70s and can remember occasions with Alice admitting he embellishes tales-just had a quick look on this sites archive of press coverage

Exactly, yet for some reason, some people regard this as surprising and outrageous.

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Re: Frank Sinatra Did Not Cover "You And Me" By Alice Cooper

Post by Diane D. » Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:41 pm

wind_up_toy wrote:Interesting discussion!

In my opinion, Alice's anecdotes (whether true or not) don't have the potential to harm any of us in any way so I don't see the problem. They're highly entertaining after all! But... If he said he was going to perform on a certain date then turned up the day before, well that would be a different matter. He really doesn't owe us any more than that though!

To put this in context, I recall the 'Living With Michael Jackson' documentary from 10 years ago when MJ claimed that the mother of his white child was black. Now that was a real porker!
How can you be SO SURE that Alice's anecdotes, (I'm not talking about the true ones but the false ones), don't have the potential to harm any of us? You can talk for yourself, not for others. And, you didn't understand that documentary at all, with a name like yours, you should...
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Re: Frank Sinatra Did Not Cover "You And Me" By Alice Cooper

Post by Diane D. » Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:58 pm

GNDM wrote:
darkmenace wrote: But if someone tells too many out and out lies this will eventually hurt their credibility. I have my doubts about several Alice stories that he repeats but nothing so far that is terribly out of the ordinary for public figures who try to "spin" things for their own reasons.
I agree that Alice's credibility when telling his "stories" from the past, puts a strain on his overall credibility - when it comes to getting accurate and correct details about the history of Alice Cooper.

But let's remember that these stories or incidents he embellishes are not THAT important in the overall scheme of things. It isn't like he is telling falsehoods that will hurt others or cost lives. The stories that Alice tells make little difference to most and only hardcore fans would even care or know that they are not 100% accurate. No history book will note if and when a snake came up in Charley Prides' toilet, or that Alice's song was covered (or not) by Sinatra. To 99.9% of the world - the response will be - Who Cares!!!??? Alice is not seen as a sage, prophet, saint, or healer by most....so let him entertain.
I don't see him as a prophet, saint, sage or healer... not at all. I see him as a great artist, who is the product of the industry. Tour where he is told to go, sing what he's told to sing, etc... even told when to lie, like if he didn't have a mind of his own. But, that's the way it works, I guess, in the industry, so, yes, let him entertain, and let that small percentage of the world wondering and care.
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Re: Frank Sinatra Did Not Cover "You And Me" By Alice Cooper

Post by wind_up_toy » Mon Dec 17, 2012 7:00 pm

Sorry Diane D, I'm a bit confused by your post. I've tried to respond as best I can though.
Diane D. wrote:How can you be SO SURE that Alice's anecdotes, (I'm not talking about the true ones but the false ones), don't have the potential to harm any of us?


As stated, it is just my opinion and you're welcome to disagree. However, I can't say I've heard many anecdotes that could conceivably harm anyone. I guess that depends how you define 'harm' though.
Diane D. wrote:You can talk for yourself, not for others.
I refer you to the opening 3 words of my last post.
Diane D. wrote:And, you didn't understand that documentary at all, with a name like yours, you should...
Please elaborate on this point, I'm not really sure what you're getting at?
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Re: Frank Sinatra Did Not Cover "You And Me" By Alice Cooper

Post by Railwayman » Mon Dec 17, 2012 8:25 pm

Zzzzzzzz time for bed

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Re: Frank Sinatra Did Not Cover "You And Me" By Alice Cooper

Post by tuneylune » Tue Dec 18, 2012 12:31 pm

Devon wrote:Another angle on this. While by nature many of us who are hardcore fans are more interested in the full stories, I think sometimes stories are embellished or sugar coated to protect the integrity of others involved in situations that he's asked about. Think about it. How often do you hear Alice saying something negative about someone?

I.E. the breakup. Alice had maintained in interviews that the other band members wanted less theatrics. The other band members have denied this of course and it can be argued that they are right (see Battle Axe.) However, when you get into things like the Old School Box Set where this is discussed a little more intimately and Alice opens up a little more then it comes down to what sounded like burn out and of course Glen was a factor. Alice isn't going to go around in interviews with major publications and say "We were tired of each other, the last album we did stunk, and our guitar player and best friend since high school became useless." Sometimes I think Alice would rather make something up than potentially hurt someone.

That's just my observation.
Good point here! The only time I ever recall him really slamming someone was when John Denver declared he would "...be around long after Alice Cooper and David Bowie are gone (or words to that effect )" and Alice referred to him as an "a--hole" and how he never liked his "sappy" songs in a ROLLING STONE article around 1975, but that was really it. Normally, the worst he will ever get is saying the music of another band is good,but not really his cup of tea or competition from other bands (usually in the 70's when he declared in 1976, in CREEM, he could still sell more tickets than KISS).
Lots of opinions in this post (Horrorholic, look what you started :smack: !), but pretty much agree that really all he owes us is decent albums/performances. The only other thing I hope for whenever I meet a "celebrity" I like is that they at least be pleasent-met quite a few and 90% were pretty nice. For myself, I will be polite and ask for autographs/pictures-too old to scream and demand!
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Re: Frank Sinatra Did Not Cover "You And Me" By Alice Cooper

Post by A_MichaelUK » Tue Dec 18, 2012 2:06 pm

>Alice referred to him as an "a--hole" and how he never liked his "sappy" songs in a ROLLING STONE article around 1975, but that was really it.

Again though, he was probably just joking.

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Re: Frank Sinatra Did Not Cover "You And Me" By Alice Cooper

Post by Robbie » Tue Dec 18, 2012 3:51 pm

Tuney Lune wrote "Horrorholic look what you started". Indeed.
This thread has raised a lot of interesting points about integrity and what if anything fans can expect from a famous rock star. Maybe at some time in the future Alice may choose to reveal more of his personal thoughts, recollections and his opinions through perhaps a more serious autobiography-as an an artist who I really admire I would love to read it if he did but as noted by umpteen posters in this thread he doesn't owe it to anyone.

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Re: Frank Sinatra Did Not Cover "You And Me" By Alice Cooper

Post by darkmenace » Tue Dec 18, 2012 4:39 pm

"Maybe at some time in the future Alice may choose to reveal more of his personal thoughts, recollections and his opinions through perhaps a more serious autobiography"

So would I, but I'm not sure this is the way Alice likes to communicate.

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Re: Frank Sinatra Did Not Cover "You And Me" By Alice Cooper

Post by Diane D. » Tue Dec 18, 2012 5:20 pm

Hey... how about getting a VIP with him or bumping into him and ask him personally, face to face? Don't you think that this is the right thing to do if you have any questions about him and his career instead of believing every bozos on this site? Does it make sense?
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Re: Frank Sinatra Did Not Cover "You And Me" By Alice Cooper

Post by Robbie » Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:53 pm

The kind of information that would interest me should Alice ever choose to write his memoirs would be his thoughts on the break up of the band particularly does he have any regrets that they split up? When he looks back on his career does he feel the character he has created has been a hindrance in terms of the music he has been able to make-how is it affected his artistic freedom? Which tours / albums have given him particular satisfaction or disappointment and why he feels that way? In more general terms what was it like to grow up at a time when the Vietnam war was such a dominant question for American society ? Some thoughts on his relationship with God. If I asked those kind of questions at a meet and greet or bumping into him he would QUITE RIGHTLY tell me to mind my own business. I suspect some of the information I would like to read about may never be explored in an autobiography but many famous people have chosen to write their memoirs as they have reached shall we say, a more mature age and to be truthful many of them have been a lot less interesting characters or indeed have had less cultural impact than Alice Cooper. Time will tell.

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Re: Frank Sinatra Did Not Cover "You And Me" By Alice Cooper

Post by darkmenace » Tue Dec 18, 2012 7:46 pm

"but many famous people have chosen to write their memoirs as they have reached shall we say, a more mature age and to be truthful many of them have been a lot less interesting characters or indeed have had less cultural impact than Alice Cooper."

Very true. Like I mentioned, I'm not sure it's Alice's style to be analytic or self-revealing. There are small snippets here and there, especially when an interviewer doesn't ask the same old questions.

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Re: Frank Sinatra Did Not Cover "You And Me" By Alice Cooper

Post by A_MichaelUK » Tue Dec 18, 2012 8:33 pm

>I'm not sure it's Alice's style to be analytic or self-revealing.

That is correct.

GNDM

Re: Frank Sinatra Did Not Cover "You And Me" By Alice Cooper

Post by GNDM » Tue Dec 18, 2012 9:47 pm

Diane D. wrote:Hey... how about getting a VIP with him or bumping into him and ask him personally, face to face? Don't you think that this is the right thing to do if you have any questions about him and his career instead of believing every bozos on this site? Does it make sense?
Why should he tell YOU or anyone else the exact truth about anything? He owes you nothing but his music. Why should he "spill his guts" to some person he has just met? Please understand....he does not owe you the truth, nor does he owe you a lie. He owes you nothing. (Just like I owe you nothing, and you owe me nothing.)

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Re: Frank Sinatra Did Not Cover "You And Me" By Alice Cooper

Post by kevinuk81 » Tue Dec 18, 2012 9:51 pm

If you pay your money for a meet and greet, i would say you are entitled to ask a question or 2, whether you get a straight answer, or even one you believe, that is only for Alice to decide.
Anything I say or write is my own personal opinion, no matter who agrees or disagrees with me.

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