>That’s fine if you don’t like the lyrics, the melody, the performance, the arrangement or the production, but if you don’t like it because of what you think it’s about, one would hope you could separate that from the other elements.
All of the above. I'll just leave it at I don't believe it's an effective opener for a Nightmare album.
>Yes, the ones who don’t understand how the real world works and who see things as black or white only. They’ve had since 1973 to get used to it. If they haven’t by now, again, it says more about them than anything else.
I'm not just talking about older folks, but potentially new and younger fans too. Yes, it says something about them if they don't think Alice is cool for a variety of reasons that don't directly affect his performance, but why live with your head in the sand and wish it was otherwise? It's called marketing.
>I wouldn’t care. I don’t care that Mike Rutherford plays polo or that Roger Daltrey enjoys fishing.
I agree, the difference is those people don't turn their hobby into a huge part of their public image. When Alice comes up in social conversation instead of people talking about his work or new album the first thing usually is, "I read where he plays golf all the time."
>For the reason I gave above. Again, if he had hidden the fact that he has a favourite sport or had a particular faith, someone like you would have accused him of hypocrisy.
Wrong. Hypocrisy is when a person lies and that's not what I'm saying. It's not black or white. He has STRONGLY linked golf to his public image. You might say: Well, he has the right. Of course he has the right, that's not the point. I'm saying it has diminished his image as an artist and we probably both agree we wish it was otherwise.
>One would hope that, by now, people are able to separate what is essentially an acting part from reality.
This is actually another fascinating side subject and gets to the heart of what interests me about Alice Cooper. I believe it's always been more than an "acting" part and there are deep layers of meaning in Alice's act and performance.
>Maybe but one who doesn’t seem to want him to be allowed to live his life the way he wants to live it.
Good grief, name me any human being who has that right without repercussions.
>How’s your career as an international rock star going?
I never tried to be one. I'm very satisfied with my career, life and choices. What's your point?
>No you have not. You just admitted you “skip” “I Am Made Of You” because of what you think the song is about.
Yes, artistically speaking I think it's a bad fit. Not living in a vacuum I'm also aware of Alice's religious views and that reinforces my view.
>So you’re saying that the alternative is to be a complete whore and pander to what the audience wants or expects.
There you go, black and white again. No I'm not saying that. There are levels of grey in the world. I think Alice deserves more attention and respect from many music fans who close themselves off to him for reasons that are peripheral. Some of that can't be avoided but in my opinion some of it can.
>That’s what you “like”?! You just spent two posts finding things to complain about.
I respect those traits. I don't agree or respect the views themselves. I also believe he and management could market him better and considering the breadth and quality of his work it would be good for him. I don't think that's such an incredibly controversial view and I'm not sure why you get so worked up about it. We're actually fighting on the same side.
Musicans who found religion
Moderators: Devon, Gorehound, Si, SickThings, Shoesalesman
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darkmenace
- Billion Dollar Baby
- Posts: 486
- Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2010 11:44 pm
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A_MichaelUK
- Dada God
- Posts: 5383
- Joined: Thu Nov 16, 2006 12:35 pm
Re: Musicans who found religion
>All of the above. I'll just leave it at I don't believe it's an effective opener for a Nightmare album.
Do you need reminding that that isn't what you originally wrote?
>I'm not just talking about older folks, but potentially new and younger fans too.
I think they're a lot less strident about these things than you might think.
> Yes, it says something about them if they don't think Alice is cool for a variety of reasons that don't directly affect his performance, but why live with your head in the sand and wish it was otherwise? It's called marketing.
But that seems to be what you're doing.
>I agree, the difference is those people don't turn their hobby into a huge part of their public image.
But they're not hiding it either, just like Alice doesn't. Besides, have you never seen Roger Daltrey's American Express commercial?
>When Alice comes up in social conversation instead of people talking about his work or new album the first thing usually is, "I read where he plays golf all the time."
Maybe you should widen your circle of acquaintances. That certainly isn't my experience.
>Wrong. Hypocrisy is when a person lies and that's not what I'm saying.
But you are. You're implying it would be better if he hid it.
> > I'm saying it has diminished his image as an artist
As I've said, that's flawed thinking. The sport, as you say, is a big part of his life but it is seperate from his existence as an artist and if you think differently, then you're unable to seperate those two aspects. That is the point.
>and we probably both agree we wish it was otherwise.
I wouldn't be so sure. I don't really care one way or the other. I didn't care in 1973 and I don't care at this stage of his career. If he's found something that works for him, where he can do both, then he's very lucky.
> I believe it's always been more than an "acting" part and there are deep layers of meaning in Alice's act and performance.
Yet somehow, his faith which does overlap into his work bothers for some reason and by the way, don't be looking for too many "deep layers of meaning". Yes, there's some but not as much as you seem to want there to be and hopefully you've worked out by now he doesn't walk around with a snake around his neck or goes around cutting - up dolls.
>Good grief, name me any human being who has that right without repercussions.
The ones who do it within the law and without hurting others for a start.
>I never tried to be one. I'm very satisfied with my career, life and choices. What's your point?
It is that you're not really in a position to doubt whether his career thrives or not.
>Yes, artistically speaking I think it's a bad fit. Not living in a vacuum I'm also aware of Alice's religious views and that reinforces my view.
Nothing wrong that view but again, that wasn't your original position.
>There you go, black and white again.
No, I accused you of that if you remember.
> There are levels of grey in the world.
Exactly and they include the two aspects of his life that seem to bother you or, if not you, then all those who's position your adopting.
>I think Alice deserves more attention and respect from many music fans who close themselves off to him for reasons that are peripheral.
But one of those "reasons" was why you originally said you didn't like "I Am Made Of You", so you can understand the need for a little clarification of your position. He isn't stupid - he knew the risks he was running back then and he did assume more people would be accepting of those choices but he went ahead because he needs to live his life and conduct his career in ways that please him, not his audience and if the audience don't like it, he's learned to deal with it. Again, take a look at his career over the last decade or so - it's not bad at all.
> I also believe he and management could market him better and considering the breadth and quality of his work it would be good for him.
Put together a set of objectives and success criteria for them and I guarantee I will forward them on. Let me have details of your experience when it comes to marketing successful artists as well.
> I don't think that's such an incredibly controversial view and I'm not sure why you get so worked up about it.
The 'controversy' is that you represent a view that basically says the audience can't walk and chew gum at the same time which is insulting (which no doubt is unintentional) to the audience and assumes people are easily swayed by something that trivial. Most people just don't care.
> We're actually fighting on the same side.
I think our approaches are a little different though.
Do you need reminding that that isn't what you originally wrote?
>I'm not just talking about older folks, but potentially new and younger fans too.
I think they're a lot less strident about these things than you might think.
> Yes, it says something about them if they don't think Alice is cool for a variety of reasons that don't directly affect his performance, but why live with your head in the sand and wish it was otherwise? It's called marketing.
But that seems to be what you're doing.
>I agree, the difference is those people don't turn their hobby into a huge part of their public image.
But they're not hiding it either, just like Alice doesn't. Besides, have you never seen Roger Daltrey's American Express commercial?
>When Alice comes up in social conversation instead of people talking about his work or new album the first thing usually is, "I read where he plays golf all the time."
Maybe you should widen your circle of acquaintances. That certainly isn't my experience.
>Wrong. Hypocrisy is when a person lies and that's not what I'm saying.
But you are. You're implying it would be better if he hid it.
> > I'm saying it has diminished his image as an artist
As I've said, that's flawed thinking. The sport, as you say, is a big part of his life but it is seperate from his existence as an artist and if you think differently, then you're unable to seperate those two aspects. That is the point.
>and we probably both agree we wish it was otherwise.
I wouldn't be so sure. I don't really care one way or the other. I didn't care in 1973 and I don't care at this stage of his career. If he's found something that works for him, where he can do both, then he's very lucky.
> I believe it's always been more than an "acting" part and there are deep layers of meaning in Alice's act and performance.
Yet somehow, his faith which does overlap into his work bothers for some reason and by the way, don't be looking for too many "deep layers of meaning". Yes, there's some but not as much as you seem to want there to be and hopefully you've worked out by now he doesn't walk around with a snake around his neck or goes around cutting - up dolls.
>Good grief, name me any human being who has that right without repercussions.
The ones who do it within the law and without hurting others for a start.
>I never tried to be one. I'm very satisfied with my career, life and choices. What's your point?
It is that you're not really in a position to doubt whether his career thrives or not.
>Yes, artistically speaking I think it's a bad fit. Not living in a vacuum I'm also aware of Alice's religious views and that reinforces my view.
Nothing wrong that view but again, that wasn't your original position.
>There you go, black and white again.
No, I accused you of that if you remember.
> There are levels of grey in the world.
Exactly and they include the two aspects of his life that seem to bother you or, if not you, then all those who's position your adopting.
>I think Alice deserves more attention and respect from many music fans who close themselves off to him for reasons that are peripheral.
But one of those "reasons" was why you originally said you didn't like "I Am Made Of You", so you can understand the need for a little clarification of your position. He isn't stupid - he knew the risks he was running back then and he did assume more people would be accepting of those choices but he went ahead because he needs to live his life and conduct his career in ways that please him, not his audience and if the audience don't like it, he's learned to deal with it. Again, take a look at his career over the last decade or so - it's not bad at all.
> I also believe he and management could market him better and considering the breadth and quality of his work it would be good for him.
Put together a set of objectives and success criteria for them and I guarantee I will forward them on. Let me have details of your experience when it comes to marketing successful artists as well.
> I don't think that's such an incredibly controversial view and I'm not sure why you get so worked up about it.
The 'controversy' is that you represent a view that basically says the audience can't walk and chew gum at the same time which is insulting (which no doubt is unintentional) to the audience and assumes people are easily swayed by something that trivial. Most people just don't care.
> We're actually fighting on the same side.
I think our approaches are a little different though.
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GNDM
Re: Musicans who found religion
Now Andy...don't you wish Alice projected his off-stage image in the manner country singer Randy Travis is currently doing? If you can get Alice to enter a convenience store naked and ask for some smokes - and then pass out naked in the street......I think Alice's persona would thrive - especially among harder-edged metal fans. Of course, seeing a 65 year old man's bare behind on the news, might not do that much for AC's career.
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A_MichaelUK
- Dada God
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Re: Musicans who found religion
>I think Alice's persona would thrive - especially among harder-edged metal fans.
Yes, he would be "kicking it, old school" as I think the young people like to say.
Yes, he would be "kicking it, old school" as I think the young people like to say.
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darkmenace
- Billion Dollar Baby
- Posts: 486
- Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2010 11:44 pm
Re: Musicans who found religion
>I think they're a lot less strident about these things than you might think.
I wouldn't use the word strident but I think it matters.
>Maybe you should widen your circle of acquaintances. That certainly isn't my experience.
Maybe you should widen yours! Who's to say your experiences are more representative than mine?
>But you are. You're implying it would be better if he hid it.
Read my lips: I am saying it would be better if he didn't emphasize it. That's not hiding it.
>Yet somehow, his faith which does overlap into his work bothers for some reason and by the way, don't be looking for too many "deep layers of meaning". Yes, there's some but not as much as you seem to want there to be and hopefully you've worked out by now he doesn't walk around with a snake around his neck or goes around cutting - up dolls.
Amazing. You've reduced the whole discussion of deeper layers in Alice's work to a childlike level of whether he walks around with a snake around his neck. "Hopefully you've worked out by now..." is arrogant and patronizing. "Not as much as you seem to want there," is presumptuous: How the heck do you know what I "seem" to want?
>The ones who do it within the law and without hurting others for a start.
That's not even the point.
>It is that you're not really in a position to doubt whether his career thrives or not.
I sure can have an opinion about it. I made a relative statement that it could in fact "thrive" more.
>No, I accused you of that if you remember.
Totally irrelevant. Just because you accused me first doesn't make you right and me wrong. We're not in fifth grade. That's not a counterargument and my position still stands that you saw the issue in black and white terms.
>Again, take a look at his career over the last decade or so - it's not bad at all.
On this we agree.
>Put together a set of objectives and success criteria for them and I guarantee I will forward them on. Let me have details of your experience when it comes to marketing successful artists as well.
I'll get right on it.
>The 'controversy' is that you represent a view that basically says the audience can't walk and chew gum at the same time which is insulting (which no doubt is unintentional) to the audience and assumes people are easily swayed by something that trivial. Most people just don't care.
I agree that most people don't care. Please remember you called people "idiots" so don't slam me. Yes, people are swayed by trivial things, every day.
>I think our approaches are a little different though.
I'm beginning to see more and more how true this is.
I wouldn't use the word strident but I think it matters.
>Maybe you should widen your circle of acquaintances. That certainly isn't my experience.
Maybe you should widen yours! Who's to say your experiences are more representative than mine?
>But you are. You're implying it would be better if he hid it.
Read my lips: I am saying it would be better if he didn't emphasize it. That's not hiding it.
>Yet somehow, his faith which does overlap into his work bothers for some reason and by the way, don't be looking for too many "deep layers of meaning". Yes, there's some but not as much as you seem to want there to be and hopefully you've worked out by now he doesn't walk around with a snake around his neck or goes around cutting - up dolls.
Amazing. You've reduced the whole discussion of deeper layers in Alice's work to a childlike level of whether he walks around with a snake around his neck. "Hopefully you've worked out by now..." is arrogant and patronizing. "Not as much as you seem to want there," is presumptuous: How the heck do you know what I "seem" to want?
>The ones who do it within the law and without hurting others for a start.
That's not even the point.
>It is that you're not really in a position to doubt whether his career thrives or not.
I sure can have an opinion about it. I made a relative statement that it could in fact "thrive" more.
>No, I accused you of that if you remember.
Totally irrelevant. Just because you accused me first doesn't make you right and me wrong. We're not in fifth grade. That's not a counterargument and my position still stands that you saw the issue in black and white terms.
>Again, take a look at his career over the last decade or so - it's not bad at all.
On this we agree.
>Put together a set of objectives and success criteria for them and I guarantee I will forward them on. Let me have details of your experience when it comes to marketing successful artists as well.
I'll get right on it.
>The 'controversy' is that you represent a view that basically says the audience can't walk and chew gum at the same time which is insulting (which no doubt is unintentional) to the audience and assumes people are easily swayed by something that trivial. Most people just don't care.
I agree that most people don't care. Please remember you called people "idiots" so don't slam me. Yes, people are swayed by trivial things, every day.
>I think our approaches are a little different though.
I'm beginning to see more and more how true this is.
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A_MichaelUK
- Dada God
- Posts: 5383
- Joined: Thu Nov 16, 2006 12:35 pm
Re: Musicans who found religion
>I wouldn't use the word strident but I think it matters.
I never really denied that it did, but not as much as you seem to think.
>Maybe you should widen yours! Who's to say your experiences are more representative than mine?
I'm willing to bet it is. I've known maybe a few hundred hundred fans over the years and dozens and dozens of them remain friends and acquaintances of mine to this day and it's only a very small percentage of them that have the same position on this as you do and that's before you even include the general rock audience who again, really don't care.
> I am saying it would be better if he didn't emphasize it. That's not hiding it.
How would he not "emphasize" playing golf? Should he play at night in the dark so that no - one can see what he is doing? Should he refused to be photographed on the golf course or refuse to take part in televised games just in case some Black Sabbath fan in Idaho is offended?
>Amazing. You've reduced the whole discussion of deeper layers in Alice's work to a childlike level of whether he walks around with a snake around his neck.
Maybe so, but you're the one struggling to accept that it's primarily an acting - part.
>"Hopefully you've worked out by now..." is arrogant and patronizing.
Sticking to the thread and not trying to divert attention away from it and onto me would be my recommendation.
>"Not as much as you seem to want there," is presumptuous: How the heck do you know what I "seem" to want?
I read your posts.
>That's not even the point.
You wrote: "name me any human being who has that right without repercussions." I just gave you the answer. Is the above really you're best response? Think carefully because you are forcing yourself into a corner which if you follow the logic all the way through boils down to: he shouldn't play golf and shouldn't write about his spiritual beliefs because of "repercussions". I already explained to you that he understands what they are - he understood then and he understands now but he's not going to tailor his entire life for the benefit of his career because if he did, people who think like you do would accuse him of pandering. That's "the point".
>I sure can have an opinion about it. I made a relative statement that it could in fact "thrive" more.
Well, for one thing, you don't know that for a fact. I don't think the guys in Anvil play golf, yet that doesn't seem to have helped their career. There are a lot of potential reasons why his career has not thrived to your satisfaction and golf is only one small element. It's a lazy and easy target.
>Totally irrelevant. Just because you accused me first doesn't make you right and me wrong. We're not in fifth grade. That's not a counterargument and my position still stands that you saw the issue in black and white terms.
It's absolutely relevant. I accused you of it and you didn't address it. You still haven't. Why do you find it so hard to accept that he can do both (have a career and play golf) and why are you so sure that if he had never played golf, his career would have had a different trajectory? You still haven't explained that.
Again, hardly anyone cares as much as you seem to.
>On this we agree.
So not too much damage done, overall. Right?
>I'll get right on it.
I will be waiting. Don't forget to include details of your experience in this field.
>I agree that most people don't care.
Well, there's a contradiction. If that's the case, why do you assert his career would have gone better if golf (or his faith) had never come into the equation? You just ruined your whole argument.
> Please remember you called people "idiots" so don't slam me.
They are and I wasn't but you're slightly missing the point which is anyone turned off by something like golf (or even that he's a Christian) were probably not going to be in it for the long haul to begin with. There's plenty of fans who reject it out of hand (and so aren't fans) and plenty that tolerate it (as you do) but I would argue many more (like me, who don't care one way or the other).
>Yes, people are swayed by trivial things, every day.
I agree. It is what it is and it isn't 1973 any more when this stuff really mattered.
I never really denied that it did, but not as much as you seem to think.
>Maybe you should widen yours! Who's to say your experiences are more representative than mine?
I'm willing to bet it is. I've known maybe a few hundred hundred fans over the years and dozens and dozens of them remain friends and acquaintances of mine to this day and it's only a very small percentage of them that have the same position on this as you do and that's before you even include the general rock audience who again, really don't care.
> I am saying it would be better if he didn't emphasize it. That's not hiding it.
How would he not "emphasize" playing golf? Should he play at night in the dark so that no - one can see what he is doing? Should he refused to be photographed on the golf course or refuse to take part in televised games just in case some Black Sabbath fan in Idaho is offended?
>Amazing. You've reduced the whole discussion of deeper layers in Alice's work to a childlike level of whether he walks around with a snake around his neck.
Maybe so, but you're the one struggling to accept that it's primarily an acting - part.
>"Hopefully you've worked out by now..." is arrogant and patronizing.
Sticking to the thread and not trying to divert attention away from it and onto me would be my recommendation.
>"Not as much as you seem to want there," is presumptuous: How the heck do you know what I "seem" to want?
I read your posts.
>That's not even the point.
You wrote: "name me any human being who has that right without repercussions." I just gave you the answer. Is the above really you're best response? Think carefully because you are forcing yourself into a corner which if you follow the logic all the way through boils down to: he shouldn't play golf and shouldn't write about his spiritual beliefs because of "repercussions". I already explained to you that he understands what they are - he understood then and he understands now but he's not going to tailor his entire life for the benefit of his career because if he did, people who think like you do would accuse him of pandering. That's "the point".
>I sure can have an opinion about it. I made a relative statement that it could in fact "thrive" more.
Well, for one thing, you don't know that for a fact. I don't think the guys in Anvil play golf, yet that doesn't seem to have helped their career. There are a lot of potential reasons why his career has not thrived to your satisfaction and golf is only one small element. It's a lazy and easy target.
>Totally irrelevant. Just because you accused me first doesn't make you right and me wrong. We're not in fifth grade. That's not a counterargument and my position still stands that you saw the issue in black and white terms.
It's absolutely relevant. I accused you of it and you didn't address it. You still haven't. Why do you find it so hard to accept that he can do both (have a career and play golf) and why are you so sure that if he had never played golf, his career would have had a different trajectory? You still haven't explained that.
Again, hardly anyone cares as much as you seem to.
>On this we agree.
So not too much damage done, overall. Right?
>I'll get right on it.
I will be waiting. Don't forget to include details of your experience in this field.
>I agree that most people don't care.
Well, there's a contradiction. If that's the case, why do you assert his career would have gone better if golf (or his faith) had never come into the equation? You just ruined your whole argument.
> Please remember you called people "idiots" so don't slam me.
They are and I wasn't but you're slightly missing the point which is anyone turned off by something like golf (or even that he's a Christian) were probably not going to be in it for the long haul to begin with. There's plenty of fans who reject it out of hand (and so aren't fans) and plenty that tolerate it (as you do) but I would argue many more (like me, who don't care one way or the other).
>Yes, people are swayed by trivial things, every day.
I agree. It is what it is and it isn't 1973 any more when this stuff really mattered.
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darkmenace
- Billion Dollar Baby
- Posts: 486
- Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2010 11:44 pm
Re: Musicans who found religion
>I'm willing to bet it is. I've known maybe a few hundred hundred fans over the years and dozens and dozens of them remain friends and acquaintances of mine to this day and it's only a very small percentage of them that have the same position on this as you do and that's before you even include the general rock audience who again, really don't care.
I'm not talking about Alice fans who obviously have made up their minds that they are fans. I'm not even talking in generalities about a rock audience who I agree can be collectively described as not caring. I'm talking about the pockets of potential fans, rocks fans, music fans, who like cool music (and I consider Alice cool music) but don't give Alice a chance for a variety of peripheral reasons having to do with marketing and image, of which one is golf. For these people who don't know or follow Alice they are heavily swayed by golf stories and other things that remove Alice from what I'd broadly call the "cool" category, unfairly in my opinion, but I can see there are barriers that are hard for them get past.
>How would he not "emphasize" playing golf? Should he play at night in the dark so that no - one can see what he is doing? Should he refused to be photographed on the golf course or refuse to take part in televised games just in case some Black Sabbath fan in Idaho is offended?
This is easy to answer. Have you seen the title of his autobiography? Nothing has to be hidden, but his choice to discuss it on and on and make it part of his public image is a choice that I think has done more harm than good.
>Maybe so, but you're the one struggling to accept that it's primarily an acting - part.
There's no struggle. I find his performance fascinating and I would hope that Alice, as an artist, would appreciate that. It hasn't always been just an acting part and I think there's some discomfort there in you and maybe Alice too.
>"Not as much as you seem to want there," is presumptuous: How the heck do you know what I "seem" to want?
>I read your posts.
Which is a presumptuous yet again. I've never delved in detail about this topic online.
>That's not even the point.
>You wrote: "name me any human being who has that right without repercussions." I just gave you the answer. Is the above really you're best response? Think carefully because you are forcing yourself into a corner which if you follow the logic all the way through boils down to: he shouldn't play golf and shouldn't write about his spiritual beliefs because of "repercussions". I already explained to you that he understands what they are - he understood then and he understands now but he's not going to tailor his entire life for the benefit of his career because if he did, people who think like you do would accuse him of pandering. That's "the point".
I never said he shouldn't play golf. All I'm saying is there are repercussions which you said he's considered and that's fine. I think it's done him more harm than good and that's a point of view that is legitimate.
>Well, for one thing, you don't know that for a fact. I don't think the guys in Anvil play golf, yet that doesn't seem to have helped their career. There are a lot of potential reasons why his career has not thrived to your satisfaction and golf is only one small element. It's a lazy and easy target.
Obviously I don't know it for a fact nor do you not having access to a parallel universe where he does things differently. People go through life every day making educated guesses and judgments and I have made mine and it is defensible.
>Totally irrelevant. Just because you accused me first doesn't make you right and me wrong. We're not in fifth grade. That's not a counterargument and my position still stands that you saw the issue in black and white terms.
>It's absolutely relevant. I accused you of it and you didn't address it. You still haven't. Why do you find it so hard to accept that he can do both (have a career and play golf) and why are you so sure that if he had never played golf, his career would have had a different trajectory? You still haven't explained that.
I have explained above.
>Again, hardly anyone cares as much as you seem to.
Or you also. I mentioned my view rather briefly in a post and you wanted to discuss it further.
>So not too much damage done, overall. Right?
I have enjoyed Alice's work pretty much his whole career if that's what you mean. As for "damage done" I'll refer to the points I've been making.
>I agree that most people don't care.
>Well, there's a contradiction. If that's the case, why do you assert his career would have gone better if golf (or his faith) had never come into the equation? You just ruined your whole argument.
Black and white again. I agree "most" people don't care like "most" people aren't vegetarians. But there are pockets of people that do care, a comparatively small percent of serious music fans who add up to thousands maybe millions of people worldwide. That makes a big difference.
>I agree. It is what it is and it isn't 1973 any more when this stuff really mattered.
I think it still matters today and I'm talking about the 30-something crowd and younger who weren't around in the 70s. Lots of these people love classic rock and great music from older eras. I'm amazed at how many young folks are into Led Zeppelin. I think they'd give Alice a chance if they heard more than Schools Out and a couple other songs on the radio (which Alice does't control) but also if they could get past some of the "peripherals" I mentioned including golf.
I think Alice's career and stature as an artist would be better served if his approach was a little different. You're saying he knows that and therefore his value system is different.
I'm not talking about Alice fans who obviously have made up their minds that they are fans. I'm not even talking in generalities about a rock audience who I agree can be collectively described as not caring. I'm talking about the pockets of potential fans, rocks fans, music fans, who like cool music (and I consider Alice cool music) but don't give Alice a chance for a variety of peripheral reasons having to do with marketing and image, of which one is golf. For these people who don't know or follow Alice they are heavily swayed by golf stories and other things that remove Alice from what I'd broadly call the "cool" category, unfairly in my opinion, but I can see there are barriers that are hard for them get past.
>How would he not "emphasize" playing golf? Should he play at night in the dark so that no - one can see what he is doing? Should he refused to be photographed on the golf course or refuse to take part in televised games just in case some Black Sabbath fan in Idaho is offended?
This is easy to answer. Have you seen the title of his autobiography? Nothing has to be hidden, but his choice to discuss it on and on and make it part of his public image is a choice that I think has done more harm than good.
>Maybe so, but you're the one struggling to accept that it's primarily an acting - part.
There's no struggle. I find his performance fascinating and I would hope that Alice, as an artist, would appreciate that. It hasn't always been just an acting part and I think there's some discomfort there in you and maybe Alice too.
>"Not as much as you seem to want there," is presumptuous: How the heck do you know what I "seem" to want?
>I read your posts.
Which is a presumptuous yet again. I've never delved in detail about this topic online.
>That's not even the point.
>You wrote: "name me any human being who has that right without repercussions." I just gave you the answer. Is the above really you're best response? Think carefully because you are forcing yourself into a corner which if you follow the logic all the way through boils down to: he shouldn't play golf and shouldn't write about his spiritual beliefs because of "repercussions". I already explained to you that he understands what they are - he understood then and he understands now but he's not going to tailor his entire life for the benefit of his career because if he did, people who think like you do would accuse him of pandering. That's "the point".
I never said he shouldn't play golf. All I'm saying is there are repercussions which you said he's considered and that's fine. I think it's done him more harm than good and that's a point of view that is legitimate.
>Well, for one thing, you don't know that for a fact. I don't think the guys in Anvil play golf, yet that doesn't seem to have helped their career. There are a lot of potential reasons why his career has not thrived to your satisfaction and golf is only one small element. It's a lazy and easy target.
Obviously I don't know it for a fact nor do you not having access to a parallel universe where he does things differently. People go through life every day making educated guesses and judgments and I have made mine and it is defensible.
>Totally irrelevant. Just because you accused me first doesn't make you right and me wrong. We're not in fifth grade. That's not a counterargument and my position still stands that you saw the issue in black and white terms.
>It's absolutely relevant. I accused you of it and you didn't address it. You still haven't. Why do you find it so hard to accept that he can do both (have a career and play golf) and why are you so sure that if he had never played golf, his career would have had a different trajectory? You still haven't explained that.
I have explained above.
>Again, hardly anyone cares as much as you seem to.
Or you also. I mentioned my view rather briefly in a post and you wanted to discuss it further.
>So not too much damage done, overall. Right?
I have enjoyed Alice's work pretty much his whole career if that's what you mean. As for "damage done" I'll refer to the points I've been making.
>I agree that most people don't care.
>Well, there's a contradiction. If that's the case, why do you assert his career would have gone better if golf (or his faith) had never come into the equation? You just ruined your whole argument.
Black and white again. I agree "most" people don't care like "most" people aren't vegetarians. But there are pockets of people that do care, a comparatively small percent of serious music fans who add up to thousands maybe millions of people worldwide. That makes a big difference.
>I agree. It is what it is and it isn't 1973 any more when this stuff really mattered.
I think it still matters today and I'm talking about the 30-something crowd and younger who weren't around in the 70s. Lots of these people love classic rock and great music from older eras. I'm amazed at how many young folks are into Led Zeppelin. I think they'd give Alice a chance if they heard more than Schools Out and a couple other songs on the radio (which Alice does't control) but also if they could get past some of the "peripherals" I mentioned including golf.
I think Alice's career and stature as an artist would be better served if his approach was a little different. You're saying he knows that and therefore his value system is different.
Re: Musicans who found religion
You do realize a lot of musicians play golf nowadays? It is one of the ways they stay out of trouble while being on the road often without family. It keeps them busy. It is the same with Alice. Golf started as something to occupy his time so that he wasn't drinking. Then he started to enjoy it. We should all be so lucky.
It really is commonplace today to see rock musicians on the golf course. Just watch one of the celebrity tournaments sometime.
It really is commonplace today to see rock musicians on the golf course. Just watch one of the celebrity tournaments sometime.
Progressives are scariest thing on the planet.
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kevinuk81
- Cheese roll anyone?
- Posts: 51589
- Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 7:53 pm
- Location: Kingshurst
- Contact:
Re: Musicans who found religion
Alice the person has said many times that Alice the musician should never have a golf club in his hand.
Alice the person plays golf and goes to church, his choice, Alice the musician performs on stage for around 90 minutes, then reverts back to Alice the person, as people who have meet and greets will tell you.
Not sure why there is a lot of discussion about this, seems to me that this is going round in circles, and that is not having a go at anyone who has posted on this subject.
Alice the person plays golf and goes to church, his choice, Alice the musician performs on stage for around 90 minutes, then reverts back to Alice the person, as people who have meet and greets will tell you.
Not sure why there is a lot of discussion about this, seems to me that this is going round in circles, and that is not having a go at anyone who has posted on this subject.
Anything I say or write is my own personal opinion, no matter who agrees or disagrees with me.
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A_MichaelUK
- Dada God
- Posts: 5383
- Joined: Thu Nov 16, 2006 12:35 pm
Re: Musicans who found religion
> I'm talking about the pockets of potential fans, rocks fans, music fans, who like cool music (and I consider Alice cool music)
But that IS the general rock audience I referred to.
> For these people who don't know or follow Alice they are heavily swayed by golf stories and other things that remove Alice from what I'd broadly call the "cool" category, unfairly in my opinion, but I can see there are barriers that are hard for them get past.
I hate to break this to you but neither Alice Cooper (the band) or Alice Cooper (the solo artist) have ever been "cool" (with the vaguely possible and brief exception of the time around "Love It To Death" or "Killer"). Even before he ever picked up a golf club, he was making it pretty clear the whole thing was pretty much an act. Besides, being "cool" is not necessarily the same has having a successful career. obviously, it's great to have both, but I know which one I'd rather have.
>This is easy to answer. Have you seen the title of his autobiography? Nothing has to be hidden,
Let me stop you right there before you continue because you're beginning to try my patience. That book as I think I've already said in another thread, was not intended to be a standard biography. It was originally intended to be primarily about golf, so don't get started on what the book was called.
> to discuss it on and on and make it part of his public image is a choice that I think has done more harm than good.
I think you have your proportions all wrong.
>There's no struggle.
No, you definitely struggling. You "struggle" so much, that you skip "I Am Made Of You" because it has some spiritual content. That was you're original assertion. It was only later that you tried to justify it by saying you didn't like the song irrespective of it's content. That was a pretty convenient qualification.
> I find his performance fascinating and I would hope that Alice, as an artist, would appreciate that. It hasn't always been just an acting part
That sentence barely makes sense. He is the one playing the part. He KNOWS (by definition) if there is or isn't any acting involved.
> and I think there's some discomfort there in you and maybe Alice too.
I can't speak for him but there's plenty of other things I'm uncomfortable about - playing golf and having a faith aren't among them, I can tell you that.
>Which is a presumptuous yet again. I've never delved in detail about this topic online.
Your posts in THIS thread are sufficient.
> I think it's done him more harm than good and that's a point of view that is legitimate.
So you're saying that a decision taken in 1973 has repercussions now in 2012, irrespective of all the changes his career has gone through. What was that about seeing things in black or white, again?
>Obviously I don't know it for a fact nor do you not having access to a parallel universe where he does things differently.
I don't need to. The burden of proof isn't on me as I'm not the one who made the original statement.
>People go through life every day making educated guesses and judgments and I have made mine and it is defensible.
Not as much as you think. The world is a lot more complicated than that.
>I have explained above.
No you haven't. All you did is say I can't prove otherwise.
>Or you also. I mentioned my view rather briefly in a post and you wanted to discuss it further.
Only to tell you you're taking the golf thing too seriously. How is that my fault?
>I have enjoyed Alice's work pretty much his whole career if that's what you mean. As for "damage done" I'll refer to the points I've been making.
I will repeat the question. Not too much damage done, overall. Right?
>Black and white again.
But that's what your whole point is based on. Lose the golf and all of a sudden he'll be playing in stadiums and selling millions of albums again(yes, I know you didn't say that but that's what your point is if it is followed to its logical conclusion).
> I agree "most" people don't care like "most" people aren't vegetarians.
That is interesting because I was going to use that example in that I'm not a vegetarian but I love the song "Meat Is Murder". I love the song so much that I don't even care that Morrissey is trying to make me feel bad about not being a vegetarian and that's the way most (not all, I agree) people feel about Alice playing golf. They either don't care or they rise above it. You would have to be a moron to say "I am not listening to the "Killer album because Alice plays golf!"
,>But there are pockets of people that do care, a comparatively small percent of serious music fans who add up to thousands maybe millions of people worldwide. That makes a big difference.
How come it didn't make "a big difference" in 1975 or 1989 when he had two huge hit albums? How come it doesn't matter when he headlines those big European festivals? How come it didn't make "a big difference" when he was asked to appear in "Wayne's World, The Move" or "Dark Shadows" or during any of his achievements over the course of his career? For the second or third time, it isn't 1973 which is when this mattered. It no longer matters as much as you think.
> if they could get past some of the "peripherals" I mentioned including golf.
I think they're a lot more open - minded than you think.
>I think Alice's career and stature as an artist would be better served if his approach was a little different. You're saying he knows that and therefore his value system is different.
Yes. It tells him that he doesn't need to be a complete whore and he can do what he wants, when he wants and still have a (relatively) normal life alongside his career.
But that IS the general rock audience I referred to.
> For these people who don't know or follow Alice they are heavily swayed by golf stories and other things that remove Alice from what I'd broadly call the "cool" category, unfairly in my opinion, but I can see there are barriers that are hard for them get past.
I hate to break this to you but neither Alice Cooper (the band) or Alice Cooper (the solo artist) have ever been "cool" (with the vaguely possible and brief exception of the time around "Love It To Death" or "Killer"). Even before he ever picked up a golf club, he was making it pretty clear the whole thing was pretty much an act. Besides, being "cool" is not necessarily the same has having a successful career. obviously, it's great to have both, but I know which one I'd rather have.
>This is easy to answer. Have you seen the title of his autobiography? Nothing has to be hidden,
Let me stop you right there before you continue because you're beginning to try my patience. That book as I think I've already said in another thread, was not intended to be a standard biography. It was originally intended to be primarily about golf, so don't get started on what the book was called.
> to discuss it on and on and make it part of his public image is a choice that I think has done more harm than good.
I think you have your proportions all wrong.
>There's no struggle.
No, you definitely struggling. You "struggle" so much, that you skip "I Am Made Of You" because it has some spiritual content. That was you're original assertion. It was only later that you tried to justify it by saying you didn't like the song irrespective of it's content. That was a pretty convenient qualification.
> I find his performance fascinating and I would hope that Alice, as an artist, would appreciate that. It hasn't always been just an acting part
That sentence barely makes sense. He is the one playing the part. He KNOWS (by definition) if there is or isn't any acting involved.
> and I think there's some discomfort there in you and maybe Alice too.
I can't speak for him but there's plenty of other things I'm uncomfortable about - playing golf and having a faith aren't among them, I can tell you that.
>Which is a presumptuous yet again. I've never delved in detail about this topic online.
Your posts in THIS thread are sufficient.
> I think it's done him more harm than good and that's a point of view that is legitimate.
So you're saying that a decision taken in 1973 has repercussions now in 2012, irrespective of all the changes his career has gone through. What was that about seeing things in black or white, again?
>Obviously I don't know it for a fact nor do you not having access to a parallel universe where he does things differently.
I don't need to. The burden of proof isn't on me as I'm not the one who made the original statement.
>People go through life every day making educated guesses and judgments and I have made mine and it is defensible.
Not as much as you think. The world is a lot more complicated than that.
>I have explained above.
No you haven't. All you did is say I can't prove otherwise.
>Or you also. I mentioned my view rather briefly in a post and you wanted to discuss it further.
Only to tell you you're taking the golf thing too seriously. How is that my fault?
>I have enjoyed Alice's work pretty much his whole career if that's what you mean. As for "damage done" I'll refer to the points I've been making.
I will repeat the question. Not too much damage done, overall. Right?
>Black and white again.
But that's what your whole point is based on. Lose the golf and all of a sudden he'll be playing in stadiums and selling millions of albums again(yes, I know you didn't say that but that's what your point is if it is followed to its logical conclusion).
> I agree "most" people don't care like "most" people aren't vegetarians.
That is interesting because I was going to use that example in that I'm not a vegetarian but I love the song "Meat Is Murder". I love the song so much that I don't even care that Morrissey is trying to make me feel bad about not being a vegetarian and that's the way most (not all, I agree) people feel about Alice playing golf. They either don't care or they rise above it. You would have to be a moron to say "I am not listening to the "Killer album because Alice plays golf!"
,>But there are pockets of people that do care, a comparatively small percent of serious music fans who add up to thousands maybe millions of people worldwide. That makes a big difference.
How come it didn't make "a big difference" in 1975 or 1989 when he had two huge hit albums? How come it doesn't matter when he headlines those big European festivals? How come it didn't make "a big difference" when he was asked to appear in "Wayne's World, The Move" or "Dark Shadows" or during any of his achievements over the course of his career? For the second or third time, it isn't 1973 which is when this mattered. It no longer matters as much as you think.
> if they could get past some of the "peripherals" I mentioned including golf.
I think they're a lot more open - minded than you think.
>I think Alice's career and stature as an artist would be better served if his approach was a little different. You're saying he knows that and therefore his value system is different.
Yes. It tells him that he doesn't need to be a complete whore and he can do what he wants, when he wants and still have a (relatively) normal life alongside his career.
Re: Musicans who found religion
His personal life belongs to him. Who am I to bitch about faith and golf?
[
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A_MichaelUK
- Dada God
- Posts: 5383
- Joined: Thu Nov 16, 2006 12:35 pm
Re: Musicans who found religion
>You do realize a lot of musicians play golf nowadays?
Apparently, Iggy Pop plays too (and he's considered "cool", too). I wonder if his audience gets all bent out of shape about it.
> Golf started as something to occupy his time so that he wasn't drinking. Then he started to enjoy it. We should all be so lucky.
Exactly. Since when were rock musicians supposed to ask for PERMISSION to indulge in a hobby? Is not the whole point of being a rock star that you don't need anyone's permission on how you should live?
Apparently, Iggy Pop plays too (and he's considered "cool", too). I wonder if his audience gets all bent out of shape about it.
> Golf started as something to occupy his time so that he wasn't drinking. Then he started to enjoy it. We should all be so lucky.
Exactly. Since when were rock musicians supposed to ask for PERMISSION to indulge in a hobby? Is not the whole point of being a rock star that you don't need anyone's permission on how you should live?
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A_MichaelUK
- Dada God
- Posts: 5383
- Joined: Thu Nov 16, 2006 12:35 pm
Re: Musicans who found religion
>Not sure why there is a lot of discussion about this,
I agree and to be fair to darkmenace, perception is important when you're creating a myth or a legend, but when that myth was shattered so long ago, it really doesn't matter.
I agree and to be fair to darkmenace, perception is important when you're creating a myth or a legend, but when that myth was shattered so long ago, it really doesn't matter.
Re: Musicans who found religion
Nobody needs permission to indulge in a hobby, Rock Star or not.A_MichaelUK wrote:>You do realize a lot of musicians play golf nowadays?
Apparently, Iggy Pop plays too (and he's considered "cool", too). I wonder if his audience gets all bent out of shape about it.
> Golf started as something to occupy his time so that he wasn't drinking. Then he started to enjoy it. We should all be so lucky.
Exactly. Since when were rock musicians supposed to ask for PERMISSION to indulge in a hobby? Is not the whole point of being a rock star that you don't need anyone's permission on how you should live?
[
Re: Musicans who found religion
As an aside imo..Alice Cooper was always a construction...the main argument was always to me whether that construction was the making of Alice (Vincent) or the band in total and even that doesnt matter now..so the real person underneath can do what he wants (as been said indulge in a hobby without permission)...I think Alice the person is lucky to have the freedom he has from his character and the lifestyle that goes with it... to me anyway Alice Cooper is a concept...not real..and its a concept that no one could live in real life authentically
You are an individual, just like everybody else.
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GNDM
Re: Musicans who found religion
darkmenace.....if it helps any....Alice still has long hair and you do not find many 60+ year old guys, with long hair, on golf courses today. So think of Alice as a 'radical' of the golfing world. A real menace to the regular golfing public. Imagine him out there terrifying straight-arrow account exes and blue-haired old ladies.
Re: Musicans who found religion
interesting point GNDM... I play golf a fair bit...and many of the guys I play with have heard of AC in golfing terms-they know he has rebellious image as a rock star (sort of)...so if I read what you are saying correct he has done as he did with Hollywood Squares and infiltrated a more conservative field...I like the "real menace to the regular golfing public"...it certainly challenges the stuffy image of golf..about time.
You are an individual, just like everybody else.
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darkmenace
- Billion Dollar Baby
- Posts: 486
- Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2010 11:44 pm
Re: Musicans who found religion
Thanks to everyone who got involved in this topic and I've said before we're all on the same side to one degree (or perception) or another. But arguing about "loyalty" is like arguing about patriotism and that's a dumb thing to feel you have to "prove." I won't keep at it much longer but my silence won't signal agreement. My comments and views keep getting distorted so I'll respond again:
>I hate to break this to you but neither Alice Cooper (the band) or Alice Cooper (the solo artist) have ever been "cool" (with the vaguely possible and brief exception of the time around "Love It To Death" or "Killer").
Defining "cool" will send us along in endless circles too so I will simply say I disagree.
>This is easy to answer. Have you seen the title of his autobiography? Nothing has to be hidden,
>Let me stop you right there before you continue because you're beginning to try my patience. That book as I think I've already said in another thread, was not intended to be a standard biography. It was originally intended to be primarily about golf, so don't get started on what the book was called.
This only tries your patience because I'm right. It ended up a hybrid between an autobiography and golf manual and is regularly cited as his autobiography by others including the media.
>No, you definitely struggling. You "struggle" so much, that you skip "I Am Made Of You" because it has some spiritual content. That was you're original assertion. It was only later that you tried to justify it by saying you didn't like the song irrespective of it's content. That was a pretty convenient qualification.
Okay yes, I don't like the song on several levels and one of them is the spiritual content which I feel is out of place and not an effective album opener. That's not a "convenient qualification" but further elaboration.
>That sentence barely makes sense. He is the one playing the part. He KNOWS (by definition) if there is or isn't any acting involved.
Utter nonsense. This assumes everyone knows themselves in and out perfectly. Add alcohol and drugs to the mix (70s early 80s Alice) and things get interesting. Have you ever read Sigmund Freud or Carl Jung? You'll probably make fun of them but they have some deep and interesting points of view about all of us and anyone with any depth could easily apply to Alice Cooper.
>Your posts in THIS thread are sufficient.
Based on your comments definitely not. Alice's career is very interesting when it comes to his characterization and what it means for him and in fact all of us.
>I don't need to. The burden of proof isn't on me as I'm not the one who made the original statement.
Burden of proof? This is a discussion board! It could never be "proven" to your satisfaction. You don't agree, fine.
>Only to tell you you're taking the golf thing too seriously. How is that my fault?
I don't think it's anyone's fault to have a discussion at a discussion board.
>I will repeat the question. Not too much damage done, overall. Right?
Not with me but I'm not talking about me.
>But that's what your whole point is based on. Lose the golf and all of a sudden he'll be playing in stadiums and selling millions of albums again(yes, I know you didn't say that but that's what your point is if it is followed to its logical conclusion).
I'll rephrase: If he didn't emphasize golf so much (and a few other things) he'd have gained an undetermined number of new fans and have kept an undetermined number of old fans resulting in greater sales of albums and attendance at shows.
>How come it didn't make "a big difference" in 1975 or 1989 when he had two huge hit albums?
I'm talking about the current years but as a matter of fact I believe some choices he made in the 70s and 80s had a negative impact on his fan base. He couldn't hold the audiences that bought those two huge albums and it's because his own base was eroded by several decisions and directions.
>How come it doesn't matter when he headlines those big European festivals? How come it didn't make "a big difference" when he was asked to appear in "Wayne's World, The Move" or "Dark Shadows" or during any of his achievements over the course of his career? For the second or third time, it isn't 1973 which is when this mattered. It no longer matters as much as you think.
I disagree that it only mattered in 1973. Back then there was a lot of press that he watched TV a lot. When I read an article about Alice today there's almost always a reference to golf and other stuff. I don't remember that so much in the 70s. And in fact in the 80s (at least during the Constrictor tour) he was denying that he played golf at all.
>Yes. It tells him that he doesn't need to be a complete whore and he can do what he wants, when he wants and still have a (relatively) normal life alongside his career.
That's fine. I'm saying the "what he wants, when he wants" part will sometimes have results that do not enhance his image as an artist and performer. You're saying he has put his personal integrity first and that promoting stuff like golf is very important to him.
>I hate to break this to you but neither Alice Cooper (the band) or Alice Cooper (the solo artist) have ever been "cool" (with the vaguely possible and brief exception of the time around "Love It To Death" or "Killer").
Defining "cool" will send us along in endless circles too so I will simply say I disagree.
>This is easy to answer. Have you seen the title of his autobiography? Nothing has to be hidden,
>Let me stop you right there before you continue because you're beginning to try my patience. That book as I think I've already said in another thread, was not intended to be a standard biography. It was originally intended to be primarily about golf, so don't get started on what the book was called.
This only tries your patience because I'm right. It ended up a hybrid between an autobiography and golf manual and is regularly cited as his autobiography by others including the media.
>No, you definitely struggling. You "struggle" so much, that you skip "I Am Made Of You" because it has some spiritual content. That was you're original assertion. It was only later that you tried to justify it by saying you didn't like the song irrespective of it's content. That was a pretty convenient qualification.
Okay yes, I don't like the song on several levels and one of them is the spiritual content which I feel is out of place and not an effective album opener. That's not a "convenient qualification" but further elaboration.
>That sentence barely makes sense. He is the one playing the part. He KNOWS (by definition) if there is or isn't any acting involved.
Utter nonsense. This assumes everyone knows themselves in and out perfectly. Add alcohol and drugs to the mix (70s early 80s Alice) and things get interesting. Have you ever read Sigmund Freud or Carl Jung? You'll probably make fun of them but they have some deep and interesting points of view about all of us and anyone with any depth could easily apply to Alice Cooper.
>Your posts in THIS thread are sufficient.
Based on your comments definitely not. Alice's career is very interesting when it comes to his characterization and what it means for him and in fact all of us.
>I don't need to. The burden of proof isn't on me as I'm not the one who made the original statement.
Burden of proof? This is a discussion board! It could never be "proven" to your satisfaction. You don't agree, fine.
>Only to tell you you're taking the golf thing too seriously. How is that my fault?
I don't think it's anyone's fault to have a discussion at a discussion board.
>I will repeat the question. Not too much damage done, overall. Right?
Not with me but I'm not talking about me.
>But that's what your whole point is based on. Lose the golf and all of a sudden he'll be playing in stadiums and selling millions of albums again(yes, I know you didn't say that but that's what your point is if it is followed to its logical conclusion).
I'll rephrase: If he didn't emphasize golf so much (and a few other things) he'd have gained an undetermined number of new fans and have kept an undetermined number of old fans resulting in greater sales of albums and attendance at shows.
>How come it didn't make "a big difference" in 1975 or 1989 when he had two huge hit albums?
I'm talking about the current years but as a matter of fact I believe some choices he made in the 70s and 80s had a negative impact on his fan base. He couldn't hold the audiences that bought those two huge albums and it's because his own base was eroded by several decisions and directions.
>How come it doesn't matter when he headlines those big European festivals? How come it didn't make "a big difference" when he was asked to appear in "Wayne's World, The Move" or "Dark Shadows" or during any of his achievements over the course of his career? For the second or third time, it isn't 1973 which is when this mattered. It no longer matters as much as you think.
I disagree that it only mattered in 1973. Back then there was a lot of press that he watched TV a lot. When I read an article about Alice today there's almost always a reference to golf and other stuff. I don't remember that so much in the 70s. And in fact in the 80s (at least during the Constrictor tour) he was denying that he played golf at all.
>Yes. It tells him that he doesn't need to be a complete whore and he can do what he wants, when he wants and still have a (relatively) normal life alongside his career.
That's fine. I'm saying the "what he wants, when he wants" part will sometimes have results that do not enhance his image as an artist and performer. You're saying he has put his personal integrity first and that promoting stuff like golf is very important to him.
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GNDM
Re: Musicans who found religion
darkmenace.....just to be clear...not taking sides.
I don't know your age....but were you against Alice's golfing back in the 70's? Or is this something more recent for you? In other words - did you accept it when Alice was younger and scarier, but now that he has lost the "evil" image, you are disturbed by his 'real' persona?
I doubt you play golf, but take it from me...it is kind of like an addiction to some. (A religion?)From what I gather, on a normal day for Alice, he spends more time out on a course than he does getting ready for, and doing, a stage show. Sometimes you just rather talk about what you know and do the most.
I don't know your age....but were you against Alice's golfing back in the 70's? Or is this something more recent for you? In other words - did you accept it when Alice was younger and scarier, but now that he has lost the "evil" image, you are disturbed by his 'real' persona?
I doubt you play golf, but take it from me...it is kind of like an addiction to some. (A religion?)From what I gather, on a normal day for Alice, he spends more time out on a course than he does getting ready for, and doing, a stage show. Sometimes you just rather talk about what you know and do the most.
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Mr.Bluelegs
- Billion Dollar Baby
- Posts: 293
- Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 3:35 am
Re: Musicans who found religion
A stupid observation- Alice has never mentioned "golf" in any of his lyrics. He should combine both personas & hit golf balls ( with skull heads & spiders) into the audience (plastic, of course). Maybe a new "torture" could be him being beaten with clubs by some nerdy golfers. Combine both personas & freak everyone out.