Musicans who found religion

[darkmenace]

>Alice hasn't promoted religion like he promotes golf. His book is called GOLF MONSTER not CHRISTIAN MONSTER.

>At one point, I had a tiny fragment of respect for you as an opponent but you’ve now destroyed it.

You're like a fighter lying on the mat battered and beaten looking up groggy saying "I'm winning, right?"

>Briefly:
- there is plenty about his faith in the publication you cite.
- he has been very vocal about his faith since 1994 or so
- he formed a charitable foundation called the Solid Rock Foundation which is based on his faith
- he hosts an annual golf tournament that raises funds for the Solid Rock Foundation
- he hosts an annual variety show to raise funds for the Solid Rock Foundation
- Alice has received an honorary degree from a faith - based university
- He has opened a building to assist the Solid Rock Foundation in its work
- there is currently no Alice Cooper golf course
- there are plenty of spiritual references in his songs
- there are no golfing references in any of his songs
- his faith is mentioned in the media as much as golf is

>Your attempt here at parsing is even worse than your previous attempts.

You make a good point. Perhaps religion is hurting him as much as golf.

>You have plenty of sentences to be ashamed of like the one you just wrote. It's not a counter argument but simply an insult, a child's reply.

>So EXACTLY how could Alice have played golf without "emphasizing it"? I asked that before but you haven't answered. Should he wear a disquise or play in the dark?

You keep saying Iggy Pop and others play golf and yet practically no one hears about it because they don't ADVERTISE IT! Iggy Pop has not published an autobiography entitled GOLF PUNK.

>Try and pay more attention. In an earlier post, you wrote; "In no way would I say it could be proved." If that's the case and if it's also the case that this is just "A parlor game" (which it is, you're right), citing the article that you did in your earlier post and using that as some kind of proof is a contradiction.

I bolstered my point perfectly by citing that even Alice feels a person's mystique and career can be damaged by certain actions.

[GNDM]

I bolstered my point perfectly by citing that even Alice feels a person's mystique and career can be damaged by certain actions.

Well, if that is true, Alice must be aware that his emphasis (your word) on golf, might effect the perception people have of him. AND, if that is so...then it follows that he must not give a rat's behind about that perception, at this stage in his career. Thus, it seems to be YOUR problem...not his!

[Gunner]

I can't be bothered trawling through all this PAIF stuff, but picked up on a couple of things for my ‘two-penneth’:

"Has Ozzy Osbourne’s career been affected by the television show?"

Very much so. His wife/manageress sold his soul. It made him look like the dithering, loveable, cuddly, wife-dependant simpleton (that stole some of Alice's act) he clearly is......and certainly NOT ‘The Prince of Darkness’!!

With respect to Alice: His work has become something of a parody of Alice Cooper, and the audience appear not to be concerned. Therefore, his 'reputation' and image cannot be damaged by being portrayed as a regular family guy who plays golf and goes to Church.

[A_MichaelUK]

>No complaints at all about charity work.

Why is that any different to golf? By you’re definition, it should have harmed Alice as an artist as much as golf has. They are both as far away from his image as you can get.

>The EMPHASIS (read: EMPHASIS) on golf trivializes his image as a serious artist and diminishes his mystique

WHY? You keep saying that but you don’t explain WHY. WHY would playing a SPORT (any sport) affect “his image as a serious artist” as you keep insisting? If golf does, why does the charity work not do the same? They are both the opposite to what he supposedly represented.

>just as Alice says Ozzy's reality show hurt his mystique and career. YES I WILL REPEAT THIS SO AS TO PROVE IT'S A LEGITIMATE POINT OF VIEW.

Who says?

>Charitable work is respected period.

But it still has nothing to do with Alice as “a serious artist”. If it does, tell us HOW! When you’ve done that, tell us why golf is different.

>It can't be proven. My theory is it has caused harm.

I suggest that the evidence points to the contrary. A "theory" with no evidence is almost useless.

>It is Alice's theory that Ozzy's reality show caused harm.

I suggest he is wrong. That particular gentleman was doing very well when I last looked (although I have no idea why).

>I saw through it. I saw that he wanted his comeback to not be derailed by the golf controversy. It mattered that much at the time.

For about five minutes, yes.

>Totally illogical conclusion. It's impossible to say what the impact was on the sales of those albums.

But that’s what you’re doing. You are saying golf harmed Alice’s “image image as a serious artist” and his career also. Yet the perceived lack of golf didn’t seem to improve things. So, how is there a connection?

>More important: you keep missing my point which was simply that IT DID MATTER BEYOND 1973

Again, you never say how that happened.

>>it mattered enough to Alice to deny it.

Yes for one year between 1986 and 1987 - what a huge denial! Also, it never occurred to you that he may have been JOKING or being IRONIC.

>I can't say and I don't understand why Elton John has been brought up.

>Because you wrote: “Mystique isn't just about hacking up baby dolls it's also about being viewed as a serious artist,” I replied “How much “Mystique” does Elton John have? He is still taken very seriously.” In other words, Elton John has no “Mystique” but he is still taken seriously. In other words, being “viewed as a serious artist” has nothing to do with “Mystique” and I’m not sure why you think it is. So, take a moment and answer the question.

>I see you skipped over something: Please acknowledge that your attempt to correct me on Alice's quote was incorrect, that you made an error, that my memory of the Alice quote was closer to the truth than yours.

I already said I was happy to accept that as a source. Will you do the same and accept my “memory” when he qualified his statement and expanded on it?

>I am doing the same thing. I already said it can't be proved.

So if it “can’t be proved”, why have you spent so much time defending your position just because I questioned it? I notice that GNDM made the same point (more or less) but you never replied.

>You have constantly belittled my opinion

Not at the beginning - only as you took offence and tried to justify your stance and came up with lame points.

>and I'm pointing out that Alice Cooper himself, a performer who should know about these things, acknowledges that certain activities can hurt your mystique and career.

That still doesn't make him right. If that is the case, ask him why Ozzy Osbourne was still having more sucesss than he was.

>I think Alice knows more about these things than you.

This would be one situation where I would not defer to him - hopefully you don’t find that shocking. In that case, why not ask him why he thinks “The Osbourne’s” damaged Ozzy’s career, but yet he still plays golf?

>You better tell Alice, he thinks it has.

I have better things to talk to him about. That’s why I think you should discuss it with him. I am not the one making the assertion. Ask him why Ozzy Osbourne was still having more sucesss than he was.

> I agree with Alice's logic over yours.

I didn’t see too much “logic” in his statement - just a statement of an opinion. Ask him why Ozzy Osbourne was still having more sucesss than he was.

>Most actors audition for roles and receive them based on their acting skills. Alice "created" his role as an outgrowth of...what? That's an interesting question (you'll belittle that too, but it is).

I will choose when and when not to “belittle” – don’t make that assumption.

>The character developed at least in part as a result of his dark side (internal conflict) and became solidified as a "character," a fascinating blend of personal and fiction.

I don’t disagree with any of that so I’m not sure what the point you’re making is, unless you're saying golf ruined that. If so, tell us HOW and WHY. Saying it repeatedly is not convincing.

>That doesn't mean I thought he was the same way off stage, it means he's a great artist who brings a very interesting story to the table.

I don’t disagree with any of that so I’m not sure what the point you’re making is, unless you're saying golf ruined that. If so, tell us HOW and WHY. Saying it repeatedly is not convincing.

>You totally belittled this point of view, maybe because I hadn't expanded upon it but you were very narrow and simple minded about an interesting topic.

Maybe you should have “expanded” rather than throwing it out as some kind of a fact. Besides, despite that, you still haven’t explained why what any other actor does is on some kind of a lower level. Just because you create and act out your own persona doesn’t make it any more artistically valid than an actor who learns a script that someone else wrote. This isn’t one of your role - playing games.

>I don't but this is more of the smoke and fogs I talked about.

WHY?! The only way that is true is if you believe everything you read? DO you believe everything you read?!

>When you can't respond to an issue you to try divert attention away from the main point.

Again, that’s ironic considering I am accused of honing in too much on what people say and being too precise.

>Because it’s less interesting than rock music is.

More vague denials.

How is that vague?! Have you actually been present at any interview he has done?! Do you know what “his handlers” do and don’t stipulate?!

>Were you sneering also?

Only at you, I’m happy to admit.

>And I've demonstrated that it has remained an issue for decades since.

No you have not. You just keep insisting it is true.

>I don't know anything about Prince.

Then I suggest you study the careers of other artists a little more closely so as to arrive at your own conclusion rather than automatically agree with what others say.

> Do you think it did?

No, it did not and in the long term, neither did Alice’s decision to start playing golf.

[A_MichaelUK]

>You're like a fighter lying on the mat battered and beaten looking up groggy saying "I'm winning, right?"

I don't think you've quite earned the right to say that. If you want to take this to private correspondence, let's do that, otherwise I'm happy to continue just as we are.

>You make a good point. Perhaps religion is hurting him as much as golf.

You really are going to have to try MUCH harder. That was not the "point" I was making.

>You keep saying Iggy Pop and others play golf and yet practically no one hears about it because they don't ADVERTISE IT! Iggy Pop has not published an autobiography entitled GOLF PUNK.

That doesn't answer my question. If someone runs up to Alice on a golf course with a camera, is Alice supposed to refuse to pose? Most of the times that Alice plays golf in public is for a charity. What do you suggest? Should he refuse to be photographed doing that? Should he refuse to do interviews that help promote that charity just because he is being interviewed about golf? I thought you said doing charitable work is a good thing! How can he help promote the charity while playing golf if he does not "ADVERTISE IT!"? Should he refuse to appear on television during a golf game that is for charity? Should he play under an assumed name or wear a disguise? I want a serious answer. You are going to do better than just endlessly repeating the existence of the book and the name of it (which came out in 2007 so could not have had any impact on the years before it) and also as I said before, if your "theory" was correct then Iggy Pop would have a bigger audience the he currently does, yet he has a SMALLER audience than Alice does. Explain that.

[A_MichaelUK]

>AND, if that is so...then it follows that he must not give a rat's behind about that perception, at this stage in his career. Thus, it seems to be YOUR problem...not his!

Exactly and the other people who have no "problem" with it are the millions of people since 1973 who have bought Alices's albums and to tickets to the shows.

[A_MichaelUK]

>Very much so.

He still had a very succesful career despite it though.

>His wife/manageress sold his soul.

That may be true but that is a different issue entirely.

>It made him look like the dithering, loveable, cuddly, wife-dependant simpleton

Exactly. As I saidm, those were also some of the points that Alice was making. He wasn't just referring to Ozzy's career but the way Ozzy's physical deterioration was on display.

[GNDM]

If someone runs up to Alice on a golf course with a camera, is Alice supposed to refuse to pose? Most of the times that Alice plays golf in public is for a charity. What do you suggest? Should he refuse to be photographed doing that? Should he refuse to do interviews that help promote that charity just because he is being interviewed about golf? I thought you said doing charitable work is a good thing! How can he help promote the charity while playing golf if he does not "ADVERTISE IT!"? Should he refuse to appear on television during a golf game that is for charity? Should he play under an assumed name or wear a disguise?

It appears that Alice has/had two choices, concerning his golfing and the public's view of this activity. [I can kind of imagine his dilemma in selecting between the two.]

1. He can worry profusely that he will not appeal to a group of Iron Maiden fans and/or young fans of death or goth metal and, considering the value of that - perhaps "kick" his golf addiction. Or not!

2. He can continue playing golf and talking about it, and in doing so, picking up main stream music fans who would not otherwise be interest in his music style - were it not for his public exposure of his golf interest. Add to that the business and social contacts he makes playing golf, the ability to walk on to any number of upper level golf courses, via invitation. Not to mention some monetary perks from advertising and well as contributing to various charities.

Yes, at age 64 (65?), with his reputation as a musician assured via an induction to the RNRHOF and millions of record sales....I am sure this would be a tough decision for Mr. Cooper. (sarcasm)

[Diane D.]

>Who are you, exactly Andy? You're not Alice's assistant,

That is correct.

> You said that you did collaborate to the writing of the book ''Golf Monster''? Tell me.

No, I didn't say that. I said I assisted with the preparation of it. My point was that I was familiar with the contents of it before it was published.

Thanks, Andy.

[darkmenace]

>Well, if that is true, Alice must be aware that his emphasis (your word) on golf, might effect the perception people have of him. AND, if that is so...then it follows that he must not give a rat's behind about that perception, at this stage in his career. Thus, it seems to be YOUR problem...not his!

I see where you're going but my point all along is simply that it does have an impact on perception and his career. That idea was challenged and I defended it. My thinking is Alice would probably agree and he's decided to go forward anyway and let the chips fall where they will.

[darkmenace]

>If you want to take this to private correspondence, let's do that, otherwise I'm happy to continue just as we are.

OK, private will be fine.

[cherrypie]

>If you want to take this to private correspondence, let's do that, otherwise I'm happy to continue just as we are.

OK, private will be fine.

Don't guys, this is fascinating.

[moonshadow]

>If you want to take this to private correspondence, let's do that, otherwise I'm happy to continue just as we are.

OK, private will be fine.

Don't guys, this is fascinating.

Really?

[dadascot]

>If you want to take this to private correspondence, let's do that, otherwise I'm happy to continue just as we are.

OK, private will be fine.

Don't guys, this is fascinating.

Really?

Sarcasm! Surely???? Please!!

[A_MichaelUK]

>Really?

If you aren't interested, you don't have to read the posts.

[moonshadow]

>Really?

If you aren't interested, you don't have to read the posts.

Thank you Andy, I am aware of that.

[steven_crayn]

well having just read the posts in this thread i want to ask Dark Menace what his problem is with Alice playing Golf & going to Church?

Did Tiger Woods have an affair with your sister or something? are you a follower of Anton LaVey?

Sorry to resort to sarcasm but your 'argument' is pathetic!

No one cares if Alice Cooper plays Golf!

No one cares if Alice Cooper is a Christian!

The only thing people care about is does he entertain us?!

Kurt Cobain felt stupid and contagious about being an entertainer and the stoopid idiot killed himself, fortunately Alice Cooper realized a long time ago that Rock n Roll is a party not a funeral.

Get a life!

[Robbie]

n the early eighties after Alice had appeared on "Hollywood squares" and the "Muppet Show" did he not say that these appearances were an act of subversion? I am sure I read an interview (God it's thirty years ago now!!!) where he said that the British fans seemed to get the humour and subversion in appearing on those mainstream shows when he had been such a figure of outrage only a short time earlier (but I am ready to stand corrected by the more knowledgeable posters on the site if my memory is playing tricks!!).

[A_MichaelUK]

>did he not say that these appearances were an act of subversion? I am sure I read an interview

Yes. He did.

[Loomis]

well having just read the posts in this thread i want to ask Dark Menace what his problem is with Alice playing Golf & going to Church?

Did Tiger Woods have an affair with your sister or something? are you a follower of Anton LaVey?

Sorry to resort to sarcasm but your 'argument' is pathetic!

No one cares if Alice Cooper plays Golf!

No one cares if Alice Cooper is a Christian!

The only thing people care about is does he entertain us?!

Kurt Cobain felt stupid and contagious about being an entertainer and the stoopid idiot killed himself, fortunately Alice Cooper realized a long time ago that Rock n Roll is a party not a funeral.

Get a life!

Sadly, I think you are right. I would be willing to guess that Dark Menace sees Golf and religion as part of the establishment. I am also willing to bet that they also feel that Alice is part of the anti-establishment. While it may have been somewhat true in the early 70s, to expect someone in their mid 60s to still be anti-establishment is ridiculous. While some may not like the movie appearances like the recent "Bigfoot" and may consider Alice a pathetic joke now, what would a man in his 60s still acting like a rebel seem like? That is the sense I get anyway.

For the record, I am not in the camp that sees Alice as a pathetic joke.