Musicans who found religion

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Re: Musicans who found religion

Post by A_MichaelUK » Sun Aug 26, 2012 2:01 pm

>My comments and views keep getting distorted

You really can do better than that.

>This only tries your patience because I'm right.

Or because you don't make sense.

> It ended up a hybrid between an autobiography and golf manual and is regularly cited as his autobiography by others including the media.

I don't deny of that. What is your point

>Utter nonsense.

How?! Any actor by definition will know that - they are the person going through the experience.

>This assumes everyone knows themselves in and out perfectly. Add alcohol and drugs to the mix (70s early 80s Alice) and things get interesting.

I don't deny that, but you wrote "It hasn't always been just an acting part" as if you REALLY do believe that at one time he really did go around living the life portrayed in his work (as I already pointed out). You sound (even if you don't mean to) like someone who is disappointed that he isn't really the person he portrays.

> Have you ever read Sigmund Freud or Carl Jung? You'll probably make fun of them but they have some deep and interesting points of view about all of us and anyone with any depth could easily apply to Alice Cooper.

I have been reading about Alice Cooper since 1972 and in that time, I've read a few attempts at analysing him and / or the 'character'. Some have some validity, others are the ravings of various lunatics - you're taking the Alice Cooper 'thing' (however you want to define it) far too seriously.

>Your posts in THIS thread are sufficient.

>Alice's career is very interesting when it comes to his characterization and what it means for him and in fact all of us.

What was that about being "presumptious"? I don't think it's for you to say "what it means for" others - people can appreciate him on any level they choose. No - one is a bigger snob than I am, but at least I try not to sneer at those who don't appreciate what he does in the same way that I do. In case you've missed it, I am the one person here who goes on about the richness of Alice's career and history - the difference is I don't consider his choice of hobby or faith to be the giant distractions that you do.

>Burden of proof? This is a discussion board! It could never be "proven" to your satisfaction.

So why did you say that I don't have "access to parallel universe where he does things differently" if proof is not the issue?! You were saying I couldn't prove my points either (although I've at least supported them based on my own experiences).

>I don't think it's anyone's fault to have a discussion at a discussion board.

I agree but you're the one who said I "wanted to discuss it further". What is your point?

>Not with me but I'm not talking about me.

Neither am I - I'm referring to the thousands of people I see at his shows.

>'ll rephrase: If he didn't emphasize golf so much (and a few other things) he'd have gained an undetermined number of new fans and have kept an undetermined number of old fans resulting in greater sales of albums and attendance at shows.

I will do the same - you are delusional.

>I'm talking about the current years

Which ones though?

> but as a matter of fact I believe some choices he made in the 70s and 80s had a negative impact on his fan base.

I agree but only at that time though.

>He couldn't hold the audiences that bought those two huge albums and it's because his own base was eroded by several decisions and directions.

Are those the ONLY reasons?! We now getting to the essence of what this is about.

>I disagree that it only mattered in 1973. Back then there was a lot of press that he watched TV a lot.

So? What does that have to do with anything?

>When I read an article about Alice today there's almost always a reference to golf and other stuff. I don't remember that so much in the 70s.

I do. It was almost a constant thing after 1973 but more importantly, you just contradicted yourself again. Above, you wrote "as a matter of fact I believe some choices he made in the 70s and 80s had a negative impact on his fan base." but now you're saying "When I read an article about Alice today there's almost always a reference to golf and other stuff. I don't remember that so much in the 70s." which is a blatant contradiction. If you "don't remember that so much in the 70s" how could his "choices" have "had a negative impact in his fan base" if hardly anyone knew what those "choices" were?

>And in fact in the 80s (at least during the Constrictor tour) he was denying that he played golf at all.

Yes. He was pandering to his audience (or if you prefer, people who think like you do) and by your definition that (pretending not to play golf) would have meant he would have sold more records and tickets but that isn't what happened. How do you explain that?

> You're saying he has put his personal integrity first and that promoting stuff like golf is very important to him.

There's nothing wrong with some "integrity".

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Re: Musicans who found religion

Post by A_MichaelUK » Sun Aug 26, 2012 2:03 pm

>did you accept it when Alice was younger and scarier, but now that he has lost the "evil" image, you are disturbed by his 'real' persona?

I have to admit that is a brilliant distillation of what this might be about.

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Re: Musicans who found religion

Post by darkmenace » Sun Aug 26, 2012 6:34 pm

>I don't know your age....but were you against Alice's golfing back in the 70's? Or is this something more recent for you? In other words - did you accept it when Alice was younger and scarier, but now that he has lost the "evil" image, you are disturbed by his 'real' persona?

I didn't really care much back then. From a pure marketing point of view it seems that it's becoming a bigger part of his public image than ever. Don't forget, his new music isn't played on the radio so people don't hear much about him other the articles about him.

I knew about his "real" persona long ago, it just takes one read of Bob Greene's book to know the difference between him and his image. To me there's the "real" person, the "image" and then his "art." I feel Alice's marketing of his "real" person (focusing right now on golf mainly) has a negative impact on people's perceptions of his art.

This may sound crazy or radical to some people on this board but I guarantee there are people who think of older rocks stars who play golf all the time as over-the-hill, no edge, no creativity. You'll say that's not fair and I agree. I would suggest to Alice: Why feed that perception?

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Re: Musicans who found religion

Post by dadascot » Sun Aug 26, 2012 7:01 pm

darkmenace wrote:>I don't know your age....but were you against Alice's golfing back in the 70's? Or is this something more recent for you? In other words - did you accept it when Alice was younger and scarier, but now that he has lost the "evil" image, you are disturbed by his 'real' persona?

I didn't really care much back then. From a pure marketing point of view it seems that it's becoming a bigger part of his public image than ever. Don't forget, his new music isn't played on the radio so people don't hear much about him other the articles about him.

I knew about his "real" persona long ago, it just takes one read of Bob Greene's book to know the difference between him and his image. To me there's the "real" person, the "image" and then his "art." I feel Alice's marketing of his "real" person (focusing right now on golf mainly) has a negative impact on people's perceptions of his art.

This may sound crazy or radical to some people on this board but I guarantee there are people who think of older rocks stars who play golf all the time as over-the-hill, no edge, no creativity. You'll say that's not fair and I agree. I would suggest to Alice: Why feed that perception?
Because he has no need to be dishonest.

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Re: Musicans who found religion

Post by recoop » Sun Aug 26, 2012 7:05 pm

Hi Dark Menace, I feel I come from a strange/fortunate(maybe) position on this.. I am a counsellor/psychotherapist and as a first career had a fairly senior marketing position (not music though)... From a marketing point of view PR is just one part of the marketing mix and most stars will use anything which gets them media coverage- so golf for Alice ticks a box-he can get coverage then sell his product from that platform-ok some people (how many needs to be determined by research) could be turned off by golf-but there are a lot of stars playing golf now... As a psychotherapist, I would say Alice (orig Vince) is all the healthier mentally the more he can be himself-you use the term "real" persona-definitely not trying to be pedantic but his real self is just that-not a persona imo- I suspect that with fewer record sales (bad terminology-im getting old) Alice has had to use other fields of interest to gather PR- cars, sports, golf-and in a way this is more akin to his real self- Alice probably feels better for it in his own skin-anyway thats my thoughts
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Re: Musicans who found religion

Post by darkmenace » Sun Aug 26, 2012 7:19 pm

>This only tries your patience because I'm right.

>Or because you don't make sense.

Not a counterargument, sorry.

> It ended up a hybrid between an autobiography and golf manual and is regularly cited as his autobiography by others including the media.

>I don't deny of that. What is your point

That was my point and you were denying it.

>How?! Any actor by definition will know that - they are the person going through the experience.

Let's not compare Alice to just any actor. He didn't audition to play the role, he created the role. It grew out of his own experience and took on a life all its own fueled by alcohol.

>I don't deny that, but you wrote "It hasn't always been just an acting part" as if you REALLY do believe that at one time he really did go around living the life portrayed in his work (as I already pointed out). You sound (even if you don't mean to) like someone who is disappointed that he isn't really the person he portrays.

No, in fact I never believed he lived out the character in real life, not in the broad sense. But the interesting thing is how that characterization became a cathartic experience (Alice himself has said this) and how in fact that becomes "art" in the best sense of the word, hence the power of his earlier shows.

>I have been reading about Alice Cooper since 1972 and in that time, I've read a few attempts at analysing him and / or the 'character'. Some have some validity, others are the ravings of various lunatics - you're taking the Alice Cooper 'thing' (however you want to define it) far too seriously.

I disagree, I don't think people take it seriously enough in the sense that people seem to want to consume things on a surface level instead of delving deeper. That's fine for you if that's what you like; I think life is much more interesting at deeper levels. The AC phenomenon, especially in the early 70s, was a social phenomenon that outraged America on many levels.

>What was that about being "presumptious"? I don't think it's for you to say "what it means for" others - people can appreciate him on any level they choose.

Except you are saying I shouldn't appreciate him on the level I choose.

>No - one is a bigger snob than I am, but at least I try not to sneer at those who don't appreciate what he does in the same way that I do.

I think there's still room for improvement.

>In case you've missed it, I am the one person here who goes on about the richness of Alice's career and history - the difference is I don't consider his choice of hobby or faith to be the giant distractions that you do.

That's true, but my point is it goes beyond me.

>I will do the same - you are delusional.

Yes, but besides that!

>When I read an article about Alice today there's almost always a reference to golf and other stuff. I don't remember that so much in the 70s.

>I do. It was almost a constant thing after 1973 but more importantly, you just contradicted yourself again. Above, you wrote "as a matter of fact I believe some choices he made in the 70s and 80s had a negative impact on his fan base." but now you're saying "When I read an article about Alice today there's almost always a reference to golf and other stuff. I don't remember that so much in the 70s." which is a blatant contradiction. If you "don't remember that so much in the 70s" how could his "choices" have "had a negative impact in his fan base" if hardly anyone knew what those "choices" were?

Read again the above. I said "choices he made..." and that goes beyond golf and includes releasing a lot of ballads, doing shows like Hollywood Squares, talking about his show as "just an act," etc. His status as an "artist" was diminished considerably at that time, I don't think there's any doubt about that.

>Yes. He was pandering to his audience (or if you prefer, people who think like you do) and by your definition that (pretending not to play golf) would have meant he would have sold more records and tickets but that isn't what happened. How do you explain that?

Again, no parallel universe available. It proves he realized he needed to careful so this isn't some fake issue I've raised.

>There's nothing wrong with some "integrity".

I absolutely agree with that, but it's not the issue here. After all that's been said my point about golf is simple: I believe Alice's stature as an artist (and hence his career) would be enhanced if he didn't make golf so much a part of his public image.

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Re: Musicans who found religion

Post by recoop » Sun Aug 26, 2012 7:35 pm

"Because he has no need to be dishonest."

A very nice concise point that might go unnoticed Dadascot
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Re: Musicans who found religion

Post by A_MichaelUK » Sun Aug 26, 2012 8:25 pm

> his new music isn't played on the radio

You could say the same about Paul McCartney so I don't quite understand the point you're making.

>To me there's the "real" person, the "image" and then his "art."

No. The ""image"" is part of the ""art."" For someone who is so concerned that he is work is under - valued, you just did exactly that.

>I feel Alice's marketing of his "real" person (focusing right now on golf mainly) has a negative impact on people's perceptions of his art.

Again, I think you're giving it far more importance than it deserves.

>This may sound crazy or radical to some people on this board but I guarantee there are people who think of older rocks stars who play golf all the time as over-the-hill, no edge, no creativity.

Not as many as you believe there to be. Do they feel the same way about Lou Reed or Neil Young as well?

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Re: Musicans who found religion

Post by A_MichaelUK » Sun Aug 26, 2012 8:58 pm

>Not a counterargument, sorry.

So my response isn't a "counterargument" but somehow, your reply of "This only tries your patience because I'm right." is. What a brilliant reply.

>That was my point and you were denying it.

WHERE DID I DO THAT?! ALL I DID WAS SAY THAT THE BOOK WAS ORIGINALLY GOING TO BE ABOUT GOLF ONLY! You are really floundering.

>Let's not compare Alice to just any actor. He didn't audition to play the role, he created the role. It grew out of his own experience and took on a life all its own fueled by alcohol.

Brilliant. There is so much pomposity in that sentence that I could have written it.

> But the interesting thing is how that characterization became a cathartic experience (Alice himself has said this) and how in fact that becomes "art" in the best sense of the word, hence the power of his earlier shows.

So? How is that new information, or even relevant to this discussion?

>I disagree, I don't think people take it seriously enough in the sense that people seem to want to consume things on a surface level instead of delving deeper.

Some do, and some do not. It doesn't matter at this point - it really does not. It isn't for you to decide at what level they should appreciate something.

>I think life is much more interesting at deeper levels.

You are so profound.

>The AC phenomenon, especially in the early 70s, was a social phenomenon that outraged America on many levels.

Really? I had NO idea! I am so THRILLED that you told me that because I REALLY DID NOT KNOW THAT!

>Except you are saying I shouldn't appreciate him on the level I choose.

Now you're being idiotic and at the expense of sounding pompous, I don't think you really understand who you're debating with. I never said anything even remotely close to that. Show me where I did. All I've said was you're taking the golf 'thing' and the spirituality 'thing' (let's not forget what this thread was originally about) far too seriously. You can turn the level of fear down that you have of two subjects without affecting your appreciation, ESPECIALLY as you've already said he doesn't need to actually stop playing golf, he only needs to be less public about it.

>I think there's still room for improvement.

Keep going the way you're going and a sneer will soon form.

>That's true, but my point is it goes beyond me.

Yes, a lot of things seem to be doing that.

>Read again the above. I said "choices he made..." and that goes beyond golf and includes releasing a lot of ballads, doing shows like Hollywood Squares, talking about his show as "just an act," etc. His status as an "artist" was diminished considerably at that time, I don't think there's any doubt about that.

What difference does it make? You can throw in ALL those elements, many of which have probably been discussed here before (and they are all valid points) but the result is the same which is that in 2012, it doesn't matter. It hasn't really mattered since 1989 or something.

>Again, no parallel universe available. It proves he realized he needed to careful so this isn't some fake issue I've raised.

So we're back to my original question. There hasn't been too much damage done overall. Right?

>I absolutely agree with that, but it's not the issue here.

Well, you raised it.

> After all that's been said my point about golf is simple: I believe Alice's stature as an artist (and hence his career) would be enhanced if he didn't make golf so much a part of his public image.

Now you're getting confused, because someone's "stature as an artist" is actually totally different to someone's "career". What about someone like Justin Bieber then? I think we all agree that the consensus is that he has no "stature as an artist" yet his "career" is incredibly successful. How do you explain that?

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Re: Musicans who found religion

Post by A_MichaelUK » Sun Aug 26, 2012 9:06 pm

>Because he has no need to be dishonest.

Exactly. Although it's not quite what I think you had in mind, I recently gave the example of Kurt Cobain who was so disturbed that he struggled with the fact that he had to be something of a 'fake' which made him even more disturbed.

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Re: Musicans who found religion

Post by darkmenace » Mon Aug 27, 2012 2:18 am

>WHERE DID I DO THAT?! ALL I DID WAS SAY THAT THE BOOK WAS ORIGINALLY GOING TO BE ABOUT GOLF ONLY! You are really floundering.

Allow me to flounder some more. My original point was he emphasizes golf so much that his latest book, an autobiography, called GOLF Monster is partly a golf book. You said:

"That book as I think I've already said in another thread, was not intended to be a standard biography. It was originally intended to be primarily about golf, so don't get started on what the book was called."

It doesn't matter how it started or was intended, it wound up being an autobiography with a lot of golf thrown in. It's done, it's out, and to many people including the media, Alice is so much about golf that it's in the title of his autobiography. You can dance around this all you like but how many other rock stars and artists have pushed their hobby front and center that way?

>Let's not compare Alice to just any actor. He didn't audition to play the role, he created the role. It grew out of his own experience and took on a life all its own fueled by alcohol.

>Brilliant. There is so much pomposity in that sentence that I could have written it.

Thank you, but it's not pompous, it's true and also an interesting fact with implications.

>You are so profound.

Thank you, I already know that!

>The AC phenomenon, especially in the early 70s, was a social phenomenon that outraged America on many levels.

>Really? I had NO idea! I am so THRILLED that you told me that because I REALLY DID NOT KNOW THAT!

Pretty clever, take a sentence out of context and make a big deal about it. Now THAT'S floundering!

>Except you are saying I shouldn't appreciate him on the level I choose.

>Now you're being idiotic and at the expense of sounding pompous,

My pompous side is wounded but my idiotic side feels good.

>I don't think you really understand who you're debating with.

F. Lee Bailey?

>I never said anything even remotely close to that. Show me where I did. All I've said was you're taking the golf 'thing' and the spirituality 'thing' (let's not forget what this thread was originally about) far too seriously. You can turn the level of fear down that you have of two subjects without affecting your appreciation, ESPECIALLY as you've already said he doesn't need to actually stop playing golf, he only needs to be less public about it.

I think I agree with this.

>Keep going the way you're going and a sneer will soon form.

I keep making sense so a sneer is bound to form.

>Read again the above. I said "choices he made..." and that goes beyond golf and includes releasing a lot of ballads, doing shows like Hollywood Squares, talking about his show as "just an act," etc. His status as an "artist" was diminished considerably at that time, I don't think there's any doubt about that.

>What difference does it make?

It made a difference to YOU! I added it because you misunderstood a comment I made being limited to golf.

>You can throw in ALL those elements, many of which have probably been discussed here before (and they are all valid points) but the result is the same which is that in 2012, it doesn't matter. It hasn't really mattered since 1989 or something.

That's possible but I'm not so sure.

>So we're back to my original question. There hasn't been too much damage done overall. Right?

I believe damage has been done, that's been my point all along.

> After all that's been said my point about golf is simple: I believe Alice's stature as an artist (and hence his career) would be enhanced if he didn't make golf so much a part of his public image.

>Now you're getting confused, because someone's "stature as an artist" is actually totally different to someone's "career".

That's absurd. Your stature as an artist has a big impact on your career. How could that be separated?

>What about someone like Justin Bieber then? I think we all agree that the consensus is that he has no "stature as an artist" yet his "career" is incredibly successful. How do you explain that?

I can't say I know anything about Justin Bieber, he probably appeals to teeny boppers and you can get away with a lot with that group. Is this the comparison you want? Alice Cooper and Justin Bieber?

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Re: Musicans who found religion

Post by darkmenace » Mon Aug 27, 2012 2:46 am

>Alice has had to use other fields of interest to gather PR- cars, sports, golf-and in a way this is more akin to his real self- Alice probably feels better for it in his own skin-anyway thats my thoughts.

Thanks Recoop. Your theory is possible, any PR is good PR, but I believe it's a route with more negatives than positives especially over time.

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Re: Musicans who found religion

Post by darkmenace » Mon Aug 27, 2012 3:00 am

> his new music isn't played on the radio

>You could say the same about Paul McCartney so I don't quite understand the point you're making.

The percentage or media attention Alice gets for new albums and hit songs is far less than in the 70s, which means the media's focus on golf grows by comparison to the point where it overshadows his work.

>To me there's the "real" person, the "image" and then his "art."

>No. The ""image"" is part of the ""art."" For someone who is so concerned that he is work is under - valued, you just did exactly that.

What I mean by art is his work, like his music and performance. I fear his image is tarnished by so much attention to golf and this leads people to undervalue his work or not even give it a chance.

>I feel Alice's marketing of his "real" person (focusing right now on golf mainly) has a negative impact on people's perceptions of his art.

>Again, I think you're giving it far more importance than it deserves.

That's the point of disagreement.

>This may sound crazy or radical to some people on this board but I guarantee there are people who think of older rocks stars who play golf all the time as over-the-hill, no edge, no creativity.

>Not as many as you believe there to be. Do they feel the same way about Lou Reed or Neil Young as well?

There's no way Lou Reed or Neil Young have advertised their golf playing even a fraction of how much Alice has.

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Re: Musicans who found religion

Post by dadascot » Mon Aug 27, 2012 9:42 am

recoop wrote:Hi Dark Menace, I feel I come from a strange/fortunate(maybe) position on this.. I am a counsellor/psychotherapist and as a first career had a fairly senior marketing position (not music though)... From a marketing point of view PR is just one part of the marketing mix and most stars will use anything which gets them media coverage- so golf for Alice ticks a box-he can get coverage then sell his product from that platform-ok some people (how many needs to be determined by research) could be turned off by golf-but there are a lot of stars playing golf now... As a psychotherapist, I would say Alice (orig Vince) is all the healthier mentally the more he can be himself-you use the term "real" persona-definitely not trying to be pedantic but his real self is just that-not a persona imo- I suspect that with fewer record sales (bad terminology-im getting old) Alice has had to use other fields of interest to gather PR- cars, sports, golf-and in a way this is more akin to his real self- Alice probably feels better for it in his own skin-anyway thats my thoughts
This is a very interesting point which take's us back to the original point of this thread 'Musicians who have found religion' (in case people forgot). Alice is very comfortable with who 'he' is and who the 'character' is. His fascination with golf has brought him a lot of publicity as recoop points out how much is positive and how much negative is very difficult to ascertain, personally I think it has done his image more good than harm but I don't have anything concrete to back that up, but neither does darkman, other than his own perception. Religion is the one thing that Alice doesn't use to draw publicity which, I think, is to be admired. I am more interested in how religion affects, if at all, an artists work. To my mind most artists produce their greatest work while they are in torment (Dada being a case in point), but that is to their mental detriment. Obviously his religion has brought Alice a great deal of peace of mind, so the point is, has this affected his work? I would suggest that because he has seperated the character from teh man so much it hasn't affected it to such an extent, 'Alice' isn't religious, Vince is. Having said that, as a non-Christian I have to admit that some of the greatest pieces of art, music, paintings etc have been ispired by religion in general and christianity in particular. I went to a seminar, many years ago, where a psychologist plotted the work of the great artists to show that many worked in bursts of creativity followed by long periods where they were unproductive, and put this down to periods of depression. Anyway hopefully that gets us back on the main point.

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Re: Musicans who found religion

Post by A_MichaelUK » Mon Aug 27, 2012 10:29 am

>Allow me to flounder some more.

You don't need my permission. It seems you have a talent for it.

> It doesn't matter how it started or was intended, it wound up being an autobiography with a lot of golf thrown in.

No, no and NO! You keep getting this the wrong way round. I willl repeat: it was intended to be about golf ONLY - it was the other biographical stuff that was "thrown in" but you make it sound like Alice loves golf so much they worked it into the book. If you started being a bit more rational, you could have used that to support your argument a bit more (although your conclusion would still be almost impossible to prove).

> It's done, it's out, and to many people including the media, Alice is so much about golf that it's in the title of his autobiography.

In case you've forgotten, the book came out in 2007, several years after this whole thing becase such a troublesome issue for you, yet you seem to be saying that if the book hadn't come out or had a different title, things could be different. That is almost insane. By 2007, it no longer mattered.

> You can dance around this all you like

That is an interesting (and rather lame) accusation considering I am often accused here of being too 'direct'.

>but how many other rock stars and artists have pushed their hobby front and center that way?

I gave you the example of Roger Daltrey but you didn't comment. How about Ted Nugent and television series about hunting? How about Chrissie Hynde and her very public activites surrounding animal rights? How about Prince who goes door - to - door as a Jehovah's Witness and proselytises? How about Brian Johnson and his book about cars? How about Ronnie Wood and second career as a respected artist whio actually has exhibitions in galleries? How about Bill Wyman and his book about archaeology? How about John Lydon and his television series about natural history?

>Thank you, but it's not pompous, it's true and also an interesting fact with implications.

It is pompous. You just elevated Alice to a higher level than other mere actors.

>Pretty clever, take a sentence out of context and make a big deal about it. Now THAT'S floundering!

Rather than say it, you should show why it is "out of context".

>F. Lee Bailey?

I see comedy is also not one of your few talents.

>I think I agree with this.

I don't think that's what I asked. I asked you to tell me where I said what you accused me of saying.

>It made a difference to YOU! I added it because you misunderstood a comment I made being limited to golf.

No, I got that part. The part you misunderstand is that you could take all those elements, add them together and they still wouldn't be the reasons for his career trajectory. As I said before, it's lazy. What you don't seem to understand is that were other, more important, reasons for the way Alice's career went in the seventies - it's just that you latched on to some easy targets without really thinking the whole thing through and now you're committed to defending your position.

>That's possible but I'm not so sure.

I think some back - peddalling is about to start.

>I believe damage has been done, that's been my point all along.

Mine is that if you really think that, you're deluded. If we both look hard enough, I bet we can find examples of artists who followed your advice yet they have had careers which have been much less succesful than the career Alice has had. How do you explain that?

>That's absurd. Your stature as an artist has a big impact on your career. How could that be separated?

Are you being serious?! Being an artist is about the work itself and the creative talent that the artist brings to it. A career determines how long you can continue to be creative. In other words, it is the commercial success that allows the art to happen. Why do you think there are patrons of the arts then? How do you explain all the other artists that have existed that have had acclaim but no success?

>I can't say I know anything about Justin Bieber,

Interesting. Above you claimed not to understand my point about the seperation between art and a sustainable career, yet you still addressed the Justin Bieber example.

>he probably appeals to teeny boppers and you can get away with a lot with that group.

Exactly. The art is seperate from the career. You just made my point.

> Is this the comparison you want? Alice Cooper and Justin Bieber?

What difference does it make? It is still two diiferent concepts: art versus a career.

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Re: Musicans who found religion

Post by A_MichaelUK » Mon Aug 27, 2012 10:34 am

>The percentage or media attention Alice gets for new albums and hit songs is far less than in the 70s, which means the media's focus on golf grows by comparison to the point where it overshadows his work.

I repeat: you can say the same thing about Paul McCartney except in his case, his choice of hobby is not an issue. How do you explain that?

>What I mean by art is his work, like his music and performance.

That is what I meant as well.

>I fear his image is tarnished by so much attention to golf and this leads people to undervalue his work or not even give it a chance.

Well, I've been trying to allay your concern, but with no success.

>There's no way Lou Reed or Neil Young have advertised their golf playing even a fraction of how much Alice has.

I know, but the implication is that if they had done, they would have had less successful careers. You can't prove that.
Last edited by A_MichaelUK on Mon Aug 27, 2012 10:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Musicans who found religion

Post by A_MichaelUK » Mon Aug 27, 2012 10:42 am

>This is a very interesting point which take's us back to the original point of this thread 'Musicians who have found religion' (in case people forgot).

I think the point darkmenace was making is that this is also part of the 'problem' (as he sees it) and to be fair to him on that, it can be a far more contentious issue than whether or not Alice should be so open about playing golf which is so trivial in comparison (which is why it is odd that he is so fixated on it).

> as recoop points out how much is positive and how much negative is very difficult to ascertain,

Exactly, but darkmenace seems to imply it can be proved with a pencil, a slide - rule and a piece of paper or something.

>personally I think it has done his image more good than harm but I don't have anything concrete to back that up, but neither does darkman, other than his own perception.

I don't think it's made any real difference at all but, as you say, it's almost impossible to quantify or prove.

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Re: Musicans who found religion

Post by Nick » Mon Aug 27, 2012 12:55 pm

This is all a very interesting and though provoking discussion, but ultimately, if Alice felt he needed to still "act" all rock star ALL the time, I'm not sure if the general perception of Alice Cooper would be any better. The perception of Alice Cooper in 2012 is that of a genuinely good, family man who spends his free time partaking in a sport as opposed to getting into trouble or being strung out on drugs in some hotel room. As someone said, he dpoesn't need to hide who he is, or act in a certain way to pander to some people's "expectations". His life is in order. If it wasn't, then the dark days of the early 80's would have likely been the end of him. I'll take todays witty, intelligent rock star any day. Then when the lights go down, he puts on a show like nobody else. Golfing Christian or not, it has zero bearing on his worth as an entertainer (and i'd go a step further and say he gets better and better with age) When that 90 minutes is over, he's a regular guy again. If people are offended that he isn't really a sociopath, well, who cares.
Despite what some naysayers believe, Alice IS still relevant, I don't see how a reasonable definition of relevant wouldn't include Alice.

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Re: Musicans who found religion

Post by A_MichaelUK » Mon Aug 27, 2012 2:33 pm

>This is all a very interesting and though provoking discussion, but ultimately, if Alice felt he needed to still "act" all rock star ALL the time, I'm not sure if the general perception of Alice Cooper would be any better.

Exactly. I know exactly what would have happened. He'd be accused of pandering and of being desperate to live up to his image.

> If people are offended that he isn't really a sociopath, well, who cares.

Exactly and it would have been almost impossible to keep up the pretence.

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Re: Musicans who found religion

Post by Diane D. » Mon Aug 27, 2012 4:30 pm

GNDM wrote:Now Andy...don't you wish Alice projected his off-stage image in the manner country singer Randy Travis is currently doing? If you can get Alice to enter a convenience store naked and ask for some smokes - and then pass out naked in the street......I think Alice's persona would thrive - especially among harder-edged metal fans. Of course, seeing a 65 year old man's bare behind on the news, might not do that much for AC's career.
Be polite... You are talking about a Rock Legend, here. It's O.K. to have a sense of humour, butt... Are you jealous of his great look?
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