I never gave Shep enough credit.....

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A_MichaelUK
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Re: I never gave Shep enough credit.....

Post by A_MichaelUK » Fri Aug 26, 2011 10:12 pm

>Shep/Greenberg/Ezrin were all essential in the success as far as anything I've read.

Apart from protecting that pesky "legacy" you mean?

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Re: I never gave Shep enough credit.....

Post by A_MichaelUK » Fri Aug 26, 2011 10:14 pm

>not saying you are wrong

He is.

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Re: I never gave Shep enough credit.....

Post by A_MichaelUK » Fri Aug 26, 2011 10:19 pm

> Doesn't give the board a chance to breathe.

I prefer not to 'breathe' your hot air.

>As far as what I would of done - well hindsight is 20/20 but I think everyone deserves respect

WHAT A HUGE HYPOCRITE.

>and to be dealt with honestly and the former members seem to suggest this wasn't the case towards the end.

But the "former members" aren't making the same insane claims that you are!

>Get Glen some help, hash out any outstanding issues with the guys and see if resuming the band was possible after that.

That's all very reasonable. What if Alice didn't want to deal with that, though? How many more questions am I going to ask in this thread that don't get answered? When is While Heaven Wept going to get some answers to his questions too?

> that's pure fantasy.

You can say the same about most of your posts as well.

GNDM

Re: I never gave Shep enough credit.....

Post by GNDM » Fri Aug 26, 2011 10:30 pm

T. Bob,
Remember one thing as you wade through your "back and forths", the personal business of Neal, Mike, Dennis, Alice...is really none of ours. Their exact feelings on this subject have evolved over the years...just like anyone's would. To put a cap on what they feel would be useless, as I am sure it fluctuates all the time. As I have said before - there is no final, positive answer to the breakup, just as there is no one (or even two) determining factors. No heroes, no villains...

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Re: I never gave Shep enough credit.....

Post by A_MichaelUK » Fri Aug 26, 2011 11:58 pm

>Their exact feelings on this subject have evolved over the years...just like anyone's would.

Exactly, just like Michael Bruce's have.

>No heroes, no villains...

Unfortunately, some people really need someone to blame.

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Re: I never gave Shep enough credit.....

Post by tommystooge » Sat Aug 27, 2011 1:39 am

A_MichaelUK wrote:
Of the six people involved (seven if you include Bob Ezrin), there were three people who thought alike, three others who thought alike but in a different way and one who let's say was 'too precoccupied with other things' to be interested. A fair - minded person would be able to work out who is who and draw appropriate conclusions from that.
.
That would be eight...Let's not forget Joe Greenberg...easier to deal with One manager and One artist, than two managers and 5 artists...follow the money...

I agree, I'm not saying there was a conspiracy theory involved in the break up...it all came down to money...there was infighting with the band for sure, as the others scrambled to get something for themselves as Alice got all the fame and glory for all their hard work. I don't blame Alice, it just worked out that way, as they all agreed to name the band Alice Cooper and collectively agreed to call the singer Alice, it unfortunately came back and bit the others on the ass.

They all screwed up, Shep with the publishing, the others with the name etc. Unfortunately with all the problems in the band, there was a chance for Shep to take Alice and run (more or less),,,think from 1974 on it just became Alice and Shep...Had nightmare not succeeded, it would have been a different story and perhaps Battle Axe would have been a different album...
Remember The Coop !!

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Re: I never gave Shep enough credit.....

Post by tommystooge » Sat Aug 27, 2011 1:59 am

Toronto Bob wrote:
A_MichaelUK wrote:>I reckon his business acumen is unquestionable

That reminds me that Toronto Bob still hasn't told us about his own incredibly successful career.
Oh a personal attack - how lovely! Well andyuk - I'm a homeless man who uses the public library computer to get internet access and that's how I'm able to post on this message board. Since I'm homeless and have no possessions or income, my thoughts and opinions should immediately be disregarded.

That's what you're suggesting here right andyuk? I, TB, am not as successful/wealthy as Shep, therefore I have no right to comment on what he may or may not have done with/to the collective known as Alice Cooper.
Do you require a CV andy? Because I'm not actually homeless, I was using humor and I know that is sometimes lost on you.

I thought the Dennis quote was very telling, people should put more emphasis on that, and while everyone in the band has their own POV, I tend to put more weight on Dennis and Neal's take on things, they seem more set reality than others.

I'll reiterate my point - I always felt Shep was not as brilliant as people gave him credit for, but I was only taking into account the legacy of Alice Cooper, which I believe (why do we have to point out that our postings are just our opinions sheesh)he really hasn't done a great job in the totality. But as far as wanting to seperate Alice from his high school friends, just at the height of their careers - he did a masterful job and he's gone on and made himself very wealthy apparently, so he is very good at somethings - just not doing what's best for the AC legacy - and that is all I and most of us here, care about. But hey, he's a business guy, not an artist.



- Alice/Shep don't have control over the back catalogue which has led to numerous useless compilations which cheapens the brand and glacial speeds in releasing the "quality" archival stuff

- over the years Alice was on tour when he really wasn't fit

- while other artists from the early seventies have seen great success in album and concert sales, Alice has trended downwards

- Alice's constant touring behind slap-dash records suggests this is how AC needs to build the retirement fund

that to me says Shep hasn't been that great for the whole AC entity.

now I'm sure Shep isn't involved directly in all these aspects, but if you're Top Dog - the buck stops with you

As a side note - isn't it interesting how Blondie (another act managed by Shep) has this huge chasm between its' principle members?
Toronto Bob, I couldn't have said it better...Bang On...

My thoughts exactly,,,Alice seems to do a hell of a lot of touring each year...building that retirement fund...imagine if the other 4 didn't give up the rights to the name Alice Cooper, he'd be working for their retirement too !!!!!
Remember The Coop !!

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Re: I never gave Shep enough credit.....

Post by mestreech » Sat Aug 27, 2011 2:08 am

:axe: *stfight* *atomic* :guillotine:

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Re: I never gave Shep enough credit.....

Post by tommystooge » Sat Aug 27, 2011 2:17 am

mestreech wrote::axe: *stfight* *atomic* :guillotine:
Now That's Funny
Remember The Coop !!

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Re: I never gave Shep enough credit.....

Post by tommystooge » Sat Aug 27, 2011 2:23 am

>You don't "know" anything. I spend too much time here challenging idiots to find time to tell you or anyone who I worship or not.

Andy, you need a vacation...take a break from worshipping Alice...your challenges aren't very convincing...let some of the other posters challenge any inacurracies, we can handle it...and for the record, Toronto Bob's posts weren't idiotic or off base...

Let us know how the vacation goes...oh and get a sense of humour...
Remember The Coop !!

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Re: I never gave Shep enough credit.....

Post by tommystooge » Sat Aug 27, 2011 2:27 am

GNDM wrote:T. Bob,

BTW....any word from tommystooge about where he got his information that the band was TOLD not to talk about the breakup?
:x
Those I can trust on this forum know who TOLD me...
Remember The Coop !!

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Re: I never gave Shep enough credit.....

Post by A_MichaelUK » Sat Aug 27, 2011 9:54 am

>That would be eight...Let's not forget Joe Greenberg

He was pretty much out of the picture by then.

>...easier to deal with One manager and One artist, than two managers and 5 artists...follow the money...

What's your point? That Shep got rid of Joe as well?!

>as Alice got all the fame and glory for all their hard work.

His "hard work" as well though. Would you not agree?

> I don't blame Alice, it just worked out that way,

Well now, that's interesting because the tone of this post is certainly a LOT different from your previous posts and TOTALLY different from what Toronto Bob has been posting. I wonder why that is.

> as they all agreed to name the band Alice Cooper and collectively agreed to call the singer Alice, it unfortunately came back and bit the others on the ass.

Exactly.

>They all screwed up, Shep with the publishing,

That's false. What did you expect? It was one of the terms of singing with Straight Records. Do you really think that Shep who was a complete nobody back then was going to be able to sit Frank Zappa and Herb Cohen down and then dictate terms? Where were all these other publishing companies that were so desperate to sign the band to a deal?! You vacilate between making the very rare logical comments with fantasy and assumption,

>the others with the name etc. Unfortunately with all the problems in the band, there was a chance for Shep to take Alice and run (more or less),,

Nice qualification. Again, very much a difference in tone.

>think from 1974 on it just became Alice and Shep..

I agree. Their's is a personal relationship as much as anything else.

>perhaps Battle Axe would have been a different album...

I don't think even Alice could have saved it.

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Re: I never gave Shep enough credit.....

Post by A_MichaelUK » Sat Aug 27, 2011 9:57 am

>imagine if the other 4 didn't give up the rights to the name Alice Cooper, he'd be working for their retirement too !!!!!

Who is stopping them from working on their own "retirement" as well?

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Re: I never gave Shep enough credit.....

Post by A_MichaelUK » Sat Aug 27, 2011 9:59 am

>Andy, you need a vacation..

How do you know I'm not on "vacation"?

>take a break from worshipping Alice.

Is that what you call it?

>..your challenges aren't very convincing..

Why don't you challenge them then?

>.let some of the other posters challenge any inacurracies,

I'm still waiting. Why don't you "challenge" them?

>we can handle it...

Is that why you rarely answer certain questions and Toronto Bob never does?

>and for the record, Toronto Bob's posts weren't idiotic or off base...

Are you bipolar by any chance? Your tone has changed again.

>Let us know how the vacation goes...oh and get a sense of humour...

That old trick. Trying to pretend it's all a joke. Got it.

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Re: I never gave Shep enough credit.....

Post by A_MichaelUK » Sat Aug 27, 2011 10:00 am

>Those I can trust on this forum know who TOLD me..

Name them.

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Re: I never gave Shep enough credit.....

Post by While Heaven Wept » Sat Aug 27, 2011 11:27 am

Toronto Bob wrote: Naw - not gettiong emotional at all - just telling amuk to relax a bit - he acts like a strict headmaster rapping knuckles around here. Doesn't give the board a chance to breathe.
Andy is just giving straight answers and asking you for clarification.
Toronto Bob wrote: As far as what I would of done - well hindsight is 20/20 but I think everyone deserves respect and to be dealt with honestly and the former members seem to suggest this wasn't the case towards the end.
You might be right to a degree, but none of us were there and knew exactly what was going on. At the end of the day, Shep had to make decisions to best serve his client(s). Alice and the other guys are their own men, and i'm sure they all had things to say at the time. Remember, it wasn't just Alice that wanted to go off and do his own thing for a while. Priorities and plans change over time, we all know that. Like you said, with the benefit of hindsight it's easy to form opinions on what should and shouldn't have happened.

It'd be nice to think that the ACG could have come back with an amazing album but in reality, what we got was Battle Axe. If Alice had been involved in that, sure, it could have been another story..... but none of us will ever know, but that's life.

Toronto Bob wrote: I guess it would have been give the band 18 months off after the BDB tour, release a kick ass deluxe live/rarities package as a stop gap measure. Get Glen some help, hash out any outstanding issues with the guys and see if resuming the band was possible after that.
Yep, that could have worked, who knows? It could also have possibly ruined the brand of 'Alice'.

Toronto Bob wrote: My personal preference would of been to see Alice the man carry on something like King Diamond did, (Mercyful Fate being the ACG and Alice solo being King Diamond). But I doubt that would have been possible. Perish the thought of only ACG existing and we never get the fantastic WTMN. It would of been cool to see something like that but that's pure fantasy.
For what it's worth, i quite like King Diamond/Mercyful Fate (Abigail in particular). But he is of a much smaller stature than Alice Cooper in terms of popularity.... he had much less to lose!

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