Kiss ?

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andyrushworth
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Kiss ?

Post by andyrushworth » Sun Jan 03, 2010 1:07 pm

I'm just a little curious as to who Kiss have influenced ?
never thought of them as being influential ?
Dont get me wrong I quite like Kiss I think they are a bloody good band !
Alice is an influetial artist ,even though there were people doing similar things ,Lord Sutch, Arthur Brown ? though it has to be said that Alice defined this image , and in fairness though he may have heard Arthur Brown its debatable if he'd heard of Lord Sutch ?
The Velvet underground are possibly the biggest influence on bands in general , though if Bowie hadn't been so vocal about them would things have been different ?
I personally think Bowie is the most influential artist alive ,there's so many sounds and styles that could be traced back to him !
But Kiss ?

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Re: Kiss ?

Post by Toronto Bob » Sun Jan 03, 2010 6:09 pm

KISS directly influenced most of the glam metal of the 80's, only a band like WASP steered closer to the Alice part of town, but the others (Motely Crue, Ratt, Twisted Sister, Poison et al) all sounded like some combination of KISS and Aerosmith.

KISS/80's Hair Metal
Music: Conventional hard rock with the catchy choruses, often anthemic singles (RnRAN, SIOL, ILIL)

Lyrics: Hot chicks, sex (California porno style, not necrophilia or being the victim), rock 'n' roll, driving fast oh and hot chicks

SOME of that stuff can be applied to Alice but Alice was much more adventurous when it came to music and lyrics and, well, everything.

But KISS's biggest influence IMO is their unabashed marketing KISS product. Whatever Alice did in their heydey to open up different streams of revenue, KISS would take it to an unprecedented level and were the first ROCK group to embrace these cheap toys and trinkets. Previously that kind of idolatry was reserved for the pin-up crowd (Donny Osmond, David Cassidy). Sure there were fan clubs but with KISS, you got to join the KISS Army with badge, certificates and everything. I rue the day I didn't join up after I opened my copy of Destroyer - I could of been a Colonel or maybe even a General by now.

Alice was definitely a seminal influence on 80's glam but KIS was the direct influence. I agree with you that Bowie was a huge influence, it's a shame though that he never could bring himself to admit that he took a few cues from Alice. Think 1969 - Alice is doing his bit and Bowie is has a big fat 12-string acoustic trying to write something that's as good as Dylan. It's a point that Rolling Stone magazine has always ignored.

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Re: Kiss ?

Post by andyrushworth » Sun Jan 03, 2010 7:56 pm

Hi Bob , I think Bowie definitely had a good look at Alice and thought mmm outrageousness ,I'll go one step further and make it street level ,I suppose in the world of pop a good haircut always helps get the fans on-board ,I seem to remember when I was at school lots of people of both sexes had Ziggy cuts , usually pretty bad one's and looking more like Rod Stewart or heaven forbid Dave Hill from Slade ! :laugh:
Back to Kiss , I do quite like em , went to see them in Manchester in 75 though I had none of their records at the time ! I just see them as great interpreters

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Re: Kiss ?

Post by Mr. Skull » Sun Jan 03, 2010 9:09 pm

andyrushworth wrote:heaven forbid Dave Hill
He was always very popular with the Dutch girls though
http://img514.imageshack.us/i/i17353265776303.jpg/

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Re: Kiss ?

Post by pitkin88 » Mon Jan 04, 2010 4:42 am

Mr. Skull wrote:
andyrushworth wrote:heaven forbid Dave Hill
He was always very popular with the Dutch girls though
http://img514.imageshack.us/i/i17353265776303.jpg/

They aint no Dutch girls!! I think it's the one Pagey was knocking off who was 15. I'm pretty sure it's from the
Whiskey A Go Go.

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Re: Kiss ?

Post by glamprincess » Mon Jan 04, 2010 3:25 pm

pitkin88 wrote:
Mr. Skull wrote:
andyrushworth wrote:heaven forbid Dave Hill
He was always very popular with the Dutch girls though
http://img514.imageshack.us/i/i17353265776303.jpg/
They aint no Dutch girls!! I think it's the one Pagey was knocking off who was 15. I'm pretty sure it's from the
Whiskey A Go Go.
Pitkin88 is right. Those girls look like groupies Lori Maddox (right) and Sable Starr (left). And they were underage at the time, like Pitkin88 said. Lori Maddox was the one that was with Jimmy Page for a while. They were probably hanging out at the Rainbow or Rodney Bingenheimer's club and were somewhere in Los Angeles.

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Re: Kiss ?

Post by glamprincess » Mon Jan 04, 2010 3:30 pm

As for the comment that Kiss influenced most of the 80s hair glam bands, I would have to point out that it might not make sense to give Kiss that kind of credit when Alice Cooper influenced Kiss so heavily. Since Alice Cooper influenced Kiss so heavily especially in terms of image and look, it makes more sense to say that those 80s bands were really followers of the original Alice Cooper group in terms of image and look, rather than Kiss.

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Re: Kiss ?

Post by andyrushworth » Mon Jan 04, 2010 4:24 pm

Hi Dada God ,that's a fair point ,so really those 80s glam bands were more a result of Alice ,as were kiss , I suppose everyone is influenced by someone or other ?perhaps Alice was aware of Screamin J Hawkins ,more than say Lord Sutch or Arthur Brown ? the dramatics of Hawkins and the decadence of Iggy Pop ?
Though I must say that I adore Lou Reed/Velvets stuff though that's only because Bowie constantly name dropped them !otherwise would I know who they were ? I mean lots of groups liked to say they were influenced by the Velvets ,but had it not been for Bowie would they have even heard of them ? I doubt it !
That is why I feel Bowie is the biggest influence on music i.e. as himself , and by the acts he name drpped back then Lou Reed ,Iggy Pop possibly the templates for Punk !

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Re: Kiss ?

Post by A_MichaelUK » Mon Jan 04, 2010 4:56 pm

>Alice was aware of Screamin J Hawkins ,more than say Lord Sutch or Arthur Brown

Alice has only really ever been aware of the last artist that you cite and even then on quite a superficial level.

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Re: Kiss ?

Post by Swinger » Mon Jan 04, 2010 10:36 pm

I think you can be influential on different levels. Alice, the Stooges, Bowie, Velvet Undeground and so on were/are all, to a certain degree at least, influential because they were very innovative. Kiss might not have been as innovative but that doesn't mean that their music, show and look haven't inspired people. Therefore I do think you can say that they influenced hair metal. On the other hand there's a lot of band/artist inspired by Kiss who also cite the bands that influenced Kiss as inspiration.

Also, I've heard that a lot of guitarist say Ace Frehley was the reason they picked up a guitar in the first place.
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Re: Kiss ?

Post by Dannorama » Tue Jan 05, 2010 3:26 am

Swinger wrote: Also, I've heard that a lot of guitarist say Ace Frehley was the reason they picked up a guitar in the first place.

And I heard Ace Frehley say that "Well, if one Alice Cooper works, four Alice Coopers ought to work."

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Re: Kiss ?

Post by SickThings » Tue Jan 05, 2010 12:47 pm

It all comes down to which band the people listened to or listened to first. KISS is directly responsible for many of the '80s bands, as those guys grew up listening to KISS. The fact that Alice influenced KISS doesn't necessarily have anything to do with Alice influencing those bands---some of those bands probably never listened to Alice at all. While I've been an Alice fan since '76, shortly after I discovered KISS, it was Gene Simmons, not Dennis, who inspired me to start playing bass.

While Alice's influence can be seen in an historical light, it doesn't mean that KISS couldn't have been responsible for influencing other bands on their own....

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Re: Kiss ?

Post by Si » Wed Jan 06, 2010 7:34 am

andyrushworth wrote:I'm just a little curious as to who Kiss have influenced ?
never thought of them as being influential ?
Dont get me wrong I quite like Kiss I think they are a bloody good band !
Kiss influenced hundreds of bands to start playing, especially in the USA. You have to remember they were HUGE in the mid 70s, so couldn`t avoid influencing the young fans, who went out and formed bands.
The list of US metal bands that list Kiss as the reason they picked up guitars is huge. Whether that is a good thing could be arguable haha but it's still the case. Bands like Anthrax and Pantera have been very vocal about it (Wasn`t Dimebag even buried in a Kiss coffin? Sure I read that.)
andyrushworth wrote: I personally think Bowie is the most influential artist alive ,there's so many sounds and styles that could be traced back to him !
But then he just stole his ideas from other sources as well and mixed them up a bit. Just because you've possibly never heard the artists he heard doesn`t change that. Sorry, I have a a problem with "the most influential artist". Umm.. The Beetles? The Stones? The Who? Those bands are still "alive" in one form or another (Beetles as solo artists I admit).

The big thing is that Bowie rarely mentions who he stole stuff from (with certain exceptions like VU as you say). Somewhere I have an interview with Bowie where he discibes Alice to a tee, and then names some other artist who no one has ever heard of....

Bowie was certainly aware and influenced by Alice. Just see the Bowie page on this site for a good response from Brian Nelson when he commented on a TV show overlooking Alice in favour of Bowie.

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Re: Kiss ?

Post by WickedYoungMan » Wed Jan 06, 2010 11:03 am

Umm.. The Beetles?
Who are The Beetles? ;)
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Re: Kiss ?

Post by glamprincess » Wed Jan 06, 2010 2:52 pm

edit.
Last edited by glamprincess on Wed Jan 06, 2010 2:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Kiss ?

Post by glamprincess » Wed Jan 06, 2010 2:52 pm

SickThings wrote:It all comes down to which band the people listened to or listened to first. KISS is directly responsible for many of the '80s bands, as those guys grew up listening to KISS. The fact that Alice influenced KISS doesn't necessarily have anything to do with Alice influencing those bands---some of those bands probably never listened to Alice at all. While I've been an Alice fan since '76, shortly after I discovered KISS, it was Gene Simmons, not Dennis, who inspired me to start playing bass.

While Alice's influence can be seen in an historical light, it doesn't mean that KISS couldn't have been responsible for influencing other bands on their own....

Hunter
I agree that Kiss has influenced 80s glam bands as well. I was responding to a previous poster's comment that Alice Cooper had no influence on the 80s glam bands and it was mainly just Kiss.

And I have to disagree with you too when you say "some of these bands probably never listened to Alice at all". The 80s was not that long after the 70s and all the 80s bands that were mentioned in Toronto Bob's post have all mentioned Alice Cooper as a major influence. Twisted Sister considered Alice Cooper their biggest influence. Nikki Sixx of Motley Crue has always maintained that Alice Cooper was one of his biggest heroes of all time. Same with members of Poison and Ratt.

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Re: Kiss ?

Post by glamprincess » Wed Jan 06, 2010 3:10 pm

Si wrote:
andyrushworth wrote: I personally think Bowie is the most influential artist alive ,there's so many sounds and styles that could be traced back to him !

But then he just stole his ideas from other sources as well and mixed them up a bit. Just because you've possibly never heard the artists he heard doesn`t change that. Sorry, I have a a problem with "the most influential artist". Umm.. The Beetles? The Stones? The Who? Those bands are still "alive" in one form or another (Beetles as solo artists I admit).

The big thing is that Bowie rarely mentions who he stole stuff from (with certain exceptions like VU as you say). Somewhere I have an interview with Bowie where he discibes Alice to a tee, and then names some other artist who no one has ever heard of....

Bowie was certainly aware and influenced by Alice. Just see the Bowie page on this site for a good response from Brian Nelson when he commented on a TV show overlooking Alice in favour of Bowie.
I agree with Si. If you read early interviews with Bowie, circa 1972, Bowie used to mention Alice Cooper A LOT back then. After Bowie became famous, he no longer mentioned Alice Cooper much anymore. Bowie's former manager, Tony Defries, wrote in his book that Bowie was very aware of Alice Cooper and was making career moves in reaction to Alice Cooper's phenomenal popularity. For example, he says that the fact that people were always speculating whether or not Alice was gay and Alice was always causing shock and controversy, was the reason that Bowie decided to go one step further and actually state that he was gay so he could draw some attention for himself the way Alice Cooper was always drawing attention.

And rock history has become very blurry lately with people forgetting that Alice Cooper was already an internationally-known star wearing makeup back in 1971 with both "Love it to Death" and "Killer" under his belt when Bowie was still a hippie and not well-known in 1971. So Bowie's status as "the most influential" has been greatly overstated. Firstly, that's not realistic when you consider the importance of the Beatles and the Stones as well as Elvis, The Who, Bob Dylan, etc. But even in terms of theatrical and glitter rock, the fact that Alice Cooper emerged and became famous in 1971 which was before Bowie emerged as Ziggy Stardust in 1972.

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Re: Kiss ?

Post by Toronto Bob » Wed Jan 06, 2010 8:52 pm

glamprincess wrote:
SickThings wrote:It all comes down to which band the people listened to or listened to first. KISS is directly responsible for many of the '80s bands, as those guys grew up listening to KISS. The fact that Alice influenced KISS doesn't necessarily have anything to do with Alice influencing those bands---some of those bands probably never listened to Alice at all. While I've been an Alice fan since '76, shortly after I discovered KISS, it was Gene Simmons, not Dennis, who inspired me to start playing bass.

While Alice's influence can be seen in an historical light, it doesn't mean that KISS couldn't have been responsible for influencing other bands on their own....

Hunter
I agree that Kiss has influenced 80s glam bands as well. I was responding to a previous poster's comment that Alice Cooper had no influence on the 80s glam bands and it was mainly just Kiss.

And I have to disagree with you too when you say "some of these bands probably never listened to Alice at all". The 80s was not that long after the 70s and all the 80s bands that were mentioned in Toronto Bob's post have all mentioned Alice Cooper as a major influence. Twisted Sister considered Alice Cooper their biggest influence. Nikki Sixx of Motley Crue has always maintained that Alice Cooper was one of his biggest heroes of all time. Same with members of Poison and Ratt.
What part of the sentence 'Alice was definitely a seminal influence on 80's glam but KIS [sic] was the direct influence" says that Alice had NO influence on 80's glam bands?

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Re: Kiss ?

Post by GailsFriend » Fri Jan 08, 2010 7:03 am

I personally think that Kiss influenced the idea of "a bigger spectacle". They had coordinated outfits and makeup that made up a unified look of four people, who sang and performed, whereas Bowie, and Alice where the only focus of a band.

Of course, Alice is the father of this, but Kiss ARE his children, and they are successful in their own right.

So other bands looking for that same unified look borrowed from Kiss---Motley, Poison, etc. It relied on packaging the band, and the image.

But a few dared to directly borrow from Alice because it was so obvious. Clearly, Lizzy Borden and Marilyn Manson have been bombarded with the comparisons to Alice, and it has slowed their popularity to say the least.
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Re: Kiss ?

Post by While Heaven Wept » Fri Jan 08, 2010 10:14 am

GailsFriend wrote:
But a few dared to directly borrow from Alice because it was so obvious. Clearly, Lizzy Borden and Marilyn Manson have been bombarded with the comparisons to Alice, and it has slowed their popularity to say the least.
Not sure i agree with the comment abour Marilyn Manson, he is still outselling Cooper and his popularity is still fairly big.

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