Is there room for different types of fans? (long & boring)

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Is there room for different types of fans? (long & boring)

Post by Toronto Bob » Fri Dec 18, 2009 10:35 pm

This is in response to the things that have been said on the "KISS didn't make it thread" that has gone so far off the rails, it's not funny (well it kinda is), and I'd like to try and clear the air and hopefully reach some sort of mutual understanding or at least secession in hostilities.

First off, let me state that I love the information, pics, old interviews, ticket stub scans, tour date archive, timelines, former band member info. Really great and Si, I commend you for your dedication and for the service you provide for all us Alice fans FREE OF CHARGE. Great job - thank you.

Having said that doesn't mean I love how the forum works - but so what. If it comes to the point that I can't stand the prevailing attitudes, I stop posting and visiting – no great loss to the Alice community. When I come here and post I try to be positive, I contribute what opinions I have, I share what little info I have and I try and generate interesting topics. The problems arise when (imo) such little respect or courtesy comes from a few users here who immediately take personal offense when I or someone else expresses a dissenting opinion or criticizes "ALICE" whether the criticism is valid, well intentioned or not. Really I haven't seen any critics of Alice be particularly malicious or trolling, but every time someone says "Why the hell don't they release ______," then it's all out war on that person. And this attitude stifles the exchange of ideas and as time goes on we just get a bunch of "Your fave _____" threads and how great the last cd was.
One of the problems lies in the number of dedicated Alice fans. That last thread had a bunch of back and forth on who is dedicated and who is more dedicated and how they display their dedication. As far as I'm concerned, anyone visiting here and posting is dedicated. How they chose to display their dedication is a matter of personal choice and they should be free to express that fandom without being harassed, ridiculed or berated. But Alice's fans numbers have dwindled over the years – I think that much can be said without too much debate. Ticket sales should be enough of a barometer to show there is still enough interest in Alice to do respectable tours but he does not ever play the big venue in the NA cities he plays (I can't speak to the European venues) let alone sell-out those big venues. Bands like Genesis and Rush do, Alice does not. The reason I try to establish the idea of fewer dedicated fans is that it means there's not the chance for a variety of opinions.
Mainly what's left is the (and I don't mean this as insulting) idol worshipping type of fandom. But bands that have more fans have a wider range of opinions, so while you get a few fans that take every criticism of "their" band personally, they are a small minority, and you can actually get into more analytical discussions.
I've continually seen my opinions, contributions and criticisms misrepresented by selective quoting and purposely being obtuse - that's fine I guess if it was isolated to one or two individuals, but I'm afraid these one or two individuals seem to have the full support of "management" hence its open season on those of us who worship in a different way.
I guess I'm out in No Man's Land. I'm an Alice fan with more of a Zappa and Rush fan mentality. I put the music as my first interest and the personality stuff second and I definitely don't think of Alice as a would-be friend. I've never met Alice (except briefly at an in-store appearance) and after I had that little face-to-face and my little autograph, I don't need to meet him anymore. He seems like a very nice fellow and would be fun to have light conversation with but his playing fast and loose with facts, his lack of interest in politics and his religious beliefs means he's not "my kind of guy".
We all have different ways of expressing our fandom, it's too bad members here don't respect that and even sadder that that disrespect is allowed.
Sorry for the long rant - I really wanted to be concise.

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Re: Is there room for different types of fans? (long & boring)

Post by WickedYoungMan » Fri Dec 18, 2009 10:51 pm

Is there room for different types of fans?
Yes.
That last thread had a bunch of back and forth on who is dedicated and who is more dedicated and how they display their dedication.
Fans are dedicated in their own way. There are things for Genesis fans can readily take interest in that may not readily be available for Alice Cooper fans, and vice versa. But if you step back to look at how you wrote it, you more or less said that A.C. fans weren't as dedicated to Alice as Genesis fans are to Genesis because it didn't meet a technical level of dedication that you and an someone else shared.

In your own post on the other thread you had it right but then you had it wrong.
But Alice's fans numbers have dwindled over the years – I think that much can be said without too much debate. Ticket sales should be enough of a barometer to show there is still enough interest in Alice to do respectable tours but he does not ever play the big venue in the NA cities he plays (I can't speak to the European venues) let alone sell-out those big venues. Bands like Genesis and Rush do, Alice does not. The reason I try to establish the idea of fewer dedicated fans is that it means there's not the chance for a variety of opinions.
You should have been around the older mailing lists or the earlier stages of this forum in that case.
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Re: Is there room for different types of fans? (long & boring)

Post by Dannorama » Sat Dec 19, 2009 1:25 am

Very well put, Bob. Not bad for a Genesis fan. I am in complete agreement throughout. I liked the part about having just one time with Alice. I feel the same way, but never really put it into words. I'm delighted with the moment I had with him, and that's more than I ever expected.
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Re: Is there room for different types of fans? (long & boring)

Post by Si » Sat Dec 19, 2009 4:45 am

I also agree with much of what Bob says. The part of the other thread that pulled me in was NOT anything to do with the "more dedicated then you" arguement, which I personally think is slightly rediculous. It was the factual errors and poor asumptions in certain posts (not Bobs as such if I recall. I understood what he was geting at). The assumption that "I haven`t heard of it so it doesn`t exist" is a terrible stance to take.

For the record, and as *I* seem to be pulled in as an example at times, I don't consider myself any more dediciated than any other. I primarily did this site for my own purposes, and then made it public one Xmas in case anyone else found the info useful. It's got much bigger since then, and I am proud (and on occasion pretty protective) of it.

I'm certainly not "precious" about Alice and everything he does. Just see my review of ACAS or my views on the VIP packages in the past. However I do think that incorrect info should be corrected where posible, and try to do it nicely where I can. Unfortunatly it's easy to take things the wrong way, especially when you are reading text.

When I get emails asking for info or advice I do my best to answer or get an answer. Isn't that just normal? I don't see that as being especially dedicated (over anybody else). Would I say I am "dedicated" to the cause. Sure. But so are thousands of others all around the world. The fact many don`t post here, is irrelevant. This is just one site and one way of "getting involved" for want of a better term.

I am a fan of many artists but rarely post in their forums, mainly because of time constraints. Does that make me less dedicated to them? In one way it could be said it does as I make that choice, but that's just a fact of life. I don`t have time for everything, and because this site is "mine" I have to priortise what needs to be done here over their stuff. I am aware that there is a group of people who rely on hearing stuff here and I don't want to let them down and them miss out on something cool.

I don't like using myself as an example, but it's not right for me to use anyone else. I don't know what others do.

I think it's a shame that some take comments so personally, when normally that isn`t the intent.

Finally (I have to ge to work) to answer Bob's question in the title of this thread. Of course there is room for every level of fan, who express their joy of Alice Cooper in anyway they wish. Both here, and anywhere else. There's room for the complete newbie looking for background info to the seasoned "pro" helping to educate, and without everyone Alice Cooper wouldn`t continue to record and tour for which we should all be greatful.

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Re: Is there room for different types of fans? (long & boring)

Post by Jumping Jack » Sat Dec 19, 2009 11:09 am

Too bad the "Quote" feature cannot be disabled on this board. It would help get rid of many of the "I'm a bigger expert than you, and therefore your opinions are ignorant" posts that unfortunately pop up here.

If we were in a room together folks would just walk from those displaying that type of rude behavior, but on the Internet these anti-social types feel empowered at the expense of the group.
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Re: Is there room for different types of fans? (long & boring)

Post by A_MichaelUK » Sat Dec 19, 2009 11:24 am

>Too bad the "Quote" feature cannot be disabled on this board. It would help get rid of many of the "I'm a bigger expert than you, and therefore your opinions are ignorant" posts that unfortunately pop up here.

How brave you are to take little pot - shots and make veiled references from the safety of your computer. Why not say what you REALLY mean? If you are the type who is offended by some of the stuff that is written here, then you need to take a look at the real world and what goes on, not what goes on at this board.

>If we were in a room together folks would just walk from those displaying that type of rude behavior, but on the Internet these anti-social types feel empowered at the expense of the group.

That's not true. I would say exactly the same in person to someone as I do here. It's just that not everyone is as sensitive and delicate as you are.

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Re: Is there room for different types of fans? (long & boring)

Post by A_MichaelUK » Sat Dec 19, 2009 12:09 pm

> Really great and Si, I commend you for your dedication and for the service you provide for all us Alice fans FREE OF CHARGE. Great job - thank you.

At least you're man enough to say that, but at the same time, your post is self - serving and as WickedYoungMan alludes, an attempt in to re - write your previous posts but without having to apologise. You wrote:
Enjoy your posters and fanzines - I prefer to listen to music.

Now, however, because you gave been rightly criticised for your arrogance, you attempt to qualify your patronising and arrogant stance, as if you never implied that you are superior to those who do not collect live recordings. You might fool Dannorama and to a certain extent, Si, but I know your type and how to deal with it. None of this is said in an attempt to stop you posting, however, but if you ever try any of this again, it will be noticed and commented on and when it is, don't you dare bleat that about those comments.

> When I come here and post I try to be positive,

Your comment about "posters and fanzines" was TOTALLY "positive", of course!

>from a few users here who immediately take personal offense when I or someone else expresses a dissenting opinion or criticizes "ALICE" whether the criticism is valid, well intentioned or not.

Absolutely false. You, Jumping Jack and others regularly try this tired old tactic of attacking the person criticising you instead of responding to the criticism. That says it all about the strength of your argument. By the way, you still haven't answered the direct questions I asked you - you never do.

>Really I haven't seen any critics of Alice be particularly malicious or trolling,

You are either a liar or you have a short memory. You yourself criticised Alice and his management in the most ignorant way, for not having as much control over the recordings as you would like.

> but every time someone says "Why the hell don't they release ______," then it's all out war on that person.

Again, that is totally false. Why are you lying?

> How they chose to display their dedication is a matter of personal choice and they should be free to express that fandom without being harassed, ridiculed or berated.

Again, you are not telling the truth - WickedYoungMan has already pointed that out.

> Bands like Genesis and Rush do, Alice does not. The reason I try to establish the idea of fewer dedicated fans is that it means there's not the chance for a variety of opinions.

You are SO confused. Yes, those bands are bigger than Alice is, but that does not necessarily mean the percentage of dedicated collectors that they have is bigger!

>Mainly what's left is the (and I don't mean this as insulting) idol worshipping type of fandom.

How do you know this?! If your only experience of other collectors or fans is this board, then you know NOTHING about Alice Cooper fans at all. Why do you keep making these ridiculous assertions as if they were fact when they are ONLY your perception? Do you know how many people post regularly on this board? Do you know how many people read this board but do not post? Do you know how many concert tickets Alice Cooper sells? If you don't know the answer to ALL of these questions, you can't make the kind of assumptions you are making because those assumptions are based on you're own perceptions which are mainly false.

>But bands that have more fans have a wider range of opinions, so while you get a few fans that take every criticism of "their" band personally, they are a small minority, and you can actually get into more analytical discussions.

I disagree, but then I probably know more Alice Cooper fans than you do. At the other thread, I asked you how many you know but you never answered. It's strange how silent you become when you are asked to provide evidence for your statements, yet when it comes to writing a long boring post with lots of technical details that most people don't care about (as kevinuk81 said) or post where you attempt to cast yourself in a more favourable light (such as the one I'm responding to), you suddently become very eloquent.

>I've continually seen my opinions, contributions and criticisms misrepresented by selective quoting and purposely being obtuse

This is the same tactic you and others have tried before. You must think I have short memory or something. There is no "selective quoting" - everything is presented in context and you are asked specific questions which, oddly enough, you don't answer. I'm genuinely asking you to stop insulting my (and / or our) intelligence and stop being such a martyr over this.

> but I'm afraid these one or two individuals

Stop being a coward - just tell us who you are referring to.

>seem to have the full support of "management"

You're not going to want to hear this because it doesn't fit your theory but I can't think of anyone here who posts regularly who has "the full support of "management"."

>I put the music as my first interest

That is always the most important thing. Who said it wasn't?

> and the personality stuff second

That's fine. There's nothing wrong with that, but it is also that additional element that makes Alice Cooper (both the original band and the solo artist) so interesting and entertaining.

> I definitely don't think of Alice as a would-be friend. I've never met Alice (except briefly at an in-store appearance) and after I had that little face-to-face and my little autograph, I don't need to meet him anymore.

What's your point?

>with but his playing fast and loose with facts,

No more than you do.

> his lack of interest in politics and his religious beliefs means he's not "my kind of guy".

I'm sure he'd be devasted to know that. By the way, read that last sentence back to yourself and ask yourself if that does not make you sound self - righteous, arrogant and smug.

>We all have different ways of expressing our fandom, it's too bad members here don't respect that and even sadder that that disrespect is allowed.

What about your "disrespect" towards the facts and towards those who like "posters and fanzines" then?

>Sorry for the long rant - I really wanted to be concise.

No apology necessary. How about using that energy to explain your position and answer direct questions next time, instead of bleating like a spoilt child every time someone asks for an explanation?

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Re: Is there room for different types of fans? (long & boring)

Post by While Heaven Wept » Sat Dec 19, 2009 1:40 pm

Sorry Toronto Bob, but i just don't understand what point you're trying to make.

The word 'smug' comes to mind i'm afraid.

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Re: Is there room for different types of fans? (long & boring)

Post by glamprincess » Sat Dec 19, 2009 2:00 pm

Jumping Jack wrote:Too bad the "Quote" feature cannot be disabled on this board. It would help get rid of many of the "I'm a bigger expert than you, and therefore your opinions are ignorant" posts that unfortunately pop up here.

If we were in a room together folks would just walk from those displaying that type of rude behavior, but on the Internet these anti-social types feel empowered at the expense of the group.
I don't think most people here use the "quote" feature as an attempt to act superior and put others down. Most of us use the "quote" feature really as a reference point. It can be difficult to follow a discussion if one doesn't make it clear which point is being addressed.

I really think people should not take it so seriously when other people address points they have made. Here's a thought: one could be flattered instead because a response means that other people thought their post was interesting enough to be addressed.

I don't think people here are being anti-social when they address the posts of others. I think the fact that so many Sickthings have met in person and hung out indicates that most people here are friendly and the atmosphere here is a positive one overall. So remember that most of the time when others use the "quote" feature, it's nothing personal and it's just to further the discussion.
Last edited by glamprincess on Sat Dec 19, 2009 2:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Is there room for different types of fans? (long & boring)

Post by glamprincess » Sat Dec 19, 2009 2:45 pm

Toronto Bob wrote:
The problems arise when (imo) such little respect or courtesy comes from a few users here who immediately take personal offense when I or someone else expresses a dissenting opinion or criticizes "ALICE" whether the criticism is valid, well intentioned or not.... then it's all out war on that person.....

That last thread had a bunch of back and forth on who is dedicated and who is more dedicated and how they display their dedication. As far as I'm concerned, anyone visiting here and posting is dedicated. How they chose to display their dedication is a matter of personal choice and they should be free to express that fandom without being harassed, ridiculed or berated....

Mainly what's left is the (and I don't mean this as insulting) idol worshipping type of fandom....

but I'm afraid these one or two individuals seem to have the full support of "management" hence its open season on those of us who worship in a different way....
There have been many criticisms of Alice here and I don't think that other people take it personally and that it's all out war on the person who posted the criticism. For example, there were quite a few people here who expressed their disappointment with Alice's latest album ACAS. For the most part, people seemed to take the stance that everyone is entitled to their personal preferences and tastes. There have been plenty of other criticisms through the years, from people wanting more diverse setlists to people feeling that previous tours didn't have enough theatrics. Other people and myself posted some criticism of Alice's book "Golf Monster". For the most part, the discussions have all been pretty civil and I didn't see it being "full out war" on anyone. So I don't think people here are just blindly "worshipping" Alice and there certainly has been criticism of him without people being "harassed, ridiculed or berated" because of it.

On this thread, you seem to take the position that all the fans are dedicated and that should be respected. That's good. But on the other thread, your point about dedication came across very differently. As Wicked Young Man explained quite well in his above post, your posts on the "Kiss didn't make it" thread suggested that Alice fans were not as dedicated as Genesis fans because Genesis fans had done more on a technical basis. While you seem to have done an about-turn on this thread and now respect all sorts of fan dedication, your comments like "enjoy your posters and fanzines - I prefer to listen to music" on that other thread seem to suggest less respect there. It's nice that you've come around and now respect all kinds of fan dedication, but surely you can understand how your previous comments would make people here feel that you have previously put down their type of dedication.

I should point out that people here are not posting with the support of management. We are just fans, like you, and management does not have input into what we post.
Last edited by glamprincess on Sat Dec 19, 2009 2:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Is there room for different types of fans? (long & boring)

Post by pitkin88 » Sat Dec 19, 2009 5:46 pm

Oh dear. Andy you have too much time on your hands
my son. Si you are spinning. I'm still waiting for an example of an Alice audio/visual fan restoration
project ( made free to fans ) that rivals the Genesis one. There isn't one is there?

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Re: Is there room for different types of fans? (long & boring)

Post by A_MichaelUK » Sat Dec 19, 2009 6:01 pm

>Oh dear. Andy you have too much time on your hands
my son.

Is that REALLY the best you can do?

>I'm still waiting for an example of an Alice audio/visual fan restoration project ( made free to fans ) that rivals the Genesis one. There isn't one is there?

I don't know about 'rivalling' "the Genesis one" (you and Toronto Bob seem to have a fetish about the technology involved in that effort), but it's up to the person or people behind the Alice Cooper "project" to bring themselves forward. If I were you (and Toronto Bob) I'd take a moment to consider whether or not he, she and / or they would want you to have any details.

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Re: Is there room for different types of fans? (long & boring)

Post by Si » Sat Dec 19, 2009 6:27 pm

pitkin88 wrote:Si you are spinning. I'm still waiting for an example of an Alice audio/visual fan restoration
project ( made free to fans ) that rivals the Genesis one. There isn't one is there?
Not sure what "Spinning" refers to. Maybe you could explain?
As to your other statement. Already answered that in the relevent thread, which isn't this one.

Ironically, we are still waiting for you to reply to SO many points, but you ignore most of them.

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Re: Is there room for different types of fans? (long & boring)

Post by pitkin88 » Sat Dec 19, 2009 6:50 pm

Si wrote:
pitkin88 wrote:Si you are spinning. I'm still waiting for an example of an Alice audio/visual fan restoration
project ( made free to fans ) that rivals the Genesis one. There isn't one is there?
Not sure what "Spinning" refers to. Maybe you could explain?
As to your other statement. Already answered that in the relevent thread, which isn't this one.

Ironically, we are still waiting for you to reply to SO many points, but you ignore most of them.


I have a life Si. I'm off to Disney for 3 days. Anyway, I'm tired of all the boring your WRONG posts to be honest.
Serious debate here is stifled because some of you want the free backstage passes. Fair enough.

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Re: Is there room for different types of fans? (long & boring)

Post by pitkin88 » Sat Dec 19, 2009 6:59 pm

A_MichaelUK wrote:>Oh dear. Andy you have too much time on your hands
my son.

Is that REALLY the best you can do?

>I'm still waiting for an example of an Alice audio/visual fan restoration project ( made free to fans ) that rivals the Genesis one. There isn't one is there?

I don't know about 'rivalling' "the Genesis one" (you and Toronto Bob seem to have a fetish about the technology involved in that effort), but it's up to the person or people behind the Alice Cooper "project" to bring themselves forward. If I were you (and Toronto Bob) I'd take a moment to consider whether or not he, she and / or they would want you to have any details.

Sorry but you are WRONG. How's that?

Finally!! He, she and they!! Now we are getting somewhere.
I don't need to know who this secret society is. You could have answered the question waaayyyy back by just saying something like: actually there is a group out there working on the restoration of the Hollywood Bowl or whatever it is. By doing so we could have had some enlightening debate. I/We don't have a fetish about the Genesis thing. It was one example that was used. I would guess TB could post more. As yet NO ONE has given any Alice examples.

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Re: Is there room for different types of fans? (long & boring)

Post by Malchik » Sat Dec 19, 2009 7:01 pm

Alice Cooper fandom - serious business.

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Re: Is there room for different types of fans? (long & boring)

Post by pitkin88 » Sat Dec 19, 2009 7:04 pm

Malchik wrote:Alice Cooper fandom - serious business.



Hell yeah!!

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Re: Is there room for different types of fans? (long & boring)

Post by pitkin88 » Sat Dec 19, 2009 7:14 pm

Where's Gunner on all this? LOL.

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Re: Is there room for different types of fans? (long & boring)

Post by Si » Sat Dec 19, 2009 8:04 pm

pitkin88 wrote: I have a life Si. I'm off to Disney for 3 days. Anyway, I'm tired of all the boring your WRONG posts to be honest.
Serious debate here is stifled because some of you want the free backstage passes. Fair enough.
Debate??? You can't TAKE a debate. That's the point! Every time someone calls you on something you run away, or spout the same bullshit and unfounded accusations. You are CLUELESS! You didn`t know it was illegal to copy CD's!!!

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Re: Is there room for different types of fans? (long & boring)

Post by A_MichaelUK » Sat Dec 19, 2009 8:39 pm

>I have a life Si. I'm off to Disney for 3 days.

In that case, I'm sure I speak for all of us when I say how grateful I am that you're able to find time from your incredibly busy schedule to be able to post on this board.

>Serious debate here is stifled

So "stifled" that some of these threads go on for three or four pages! What a tyrant Si is!

>because some of you want the free backstage passes.

A very stupid thing to say. I was getting backstage passes before this site even existed. What happened to you to make you so jealous and vindictive?

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