Kiss didn't make it.

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Dannorama
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Kiss didn't make it.

Post by Dannorama » Wed Dec 16, 2009 1:56 pm

I know it seems like an Off-Topic discussion, but truly it is on-topic.

Kiss may have been nominated for the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, but they are not on the list of inductees, which happily includes Iggy and The Stooges, The Hollies, ABBA, Jimmy Cliff, and Genesis.

This leads me to believe that the voting committee saw the Kiss nomination as out-of-place. Perhaps, maybe, some of them even saw it as we do - an insult.

I see the inclusion of Iggy Pop as a clear indicator that the induction committee has a better sense of placement than the nominating committee. Perhaps this will lead to the eventual nomination and rightful induction of Alice Cooper.
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Re: Kiss didn't make it.

Post by Baz » Wed Dec 16, 2009 4:45 pm

I don`t actually see Kiss` inducted the the Hall of Shame as an insult, it`s not their fault the committee are a bunch of morons and keep overlooking the Coop.

Bless your :HEART: Danno.
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Re: Kiss didn't make it.

Post by glamprincess » Wed Dec 16, 2009 6:29 pm

Dannorama wrote:
Kiss may have been nominated for the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, but they are not on the list of inductees, which happily includes Iggy and The Stooges, The Hollies, ABBA, Jimmy Cliff, and Genesis.

This leads me to believe that the voting committee saw the Kiss nomination as out-of-place. Perhaps, maybe, some of them even saw it as we do - an insult.

I see the inclusion of Iggy Pop as a clear indicator that the induction committee has a better sense of placement than the nominating committee. Perhaps this will lead to the eventual nomination and rightful induction of Alice Cooper.
I agree that the induction committee's decision to go with the above rock acts over Kiss may be an indication that the induction committee wants there to be some chronological fairness. The Stooges, The Hollies, Jimmy Cliff and Genesis have all preceded Kiss chronologically and it therefore makes sense for them to be inducted ahead of Kiss.

It is possible that some induction committee members might have thought it was out-of-place that Kiss was nominated ahead of Alice Cooper. But that is difficult for us to determine without any additional information. It is easier to deduce from the vote though, that there seems to be a preference for "predecessors" to take priority.

In my opinion, the induction committee has not generally been the problem when it comes to overall fairness. It is a large committee and their decisions based on the nominees presented have not been that problematic. But they can only vote on the nominees presented by the nomination committee. So ultimately much of the power rests with the nominating committee and if the nominating committee keeps ignoring Alice Cooper, I don't know if the fact that the induction committee behaves more fairly will have any impact.

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Re: Kiss didn't make it.

Post by Dannorama » Wed Dec 16, 2009 7:29 pm

Baz wrote:Bless your :HEART: Danno.
Back atcha, Baz. Twice on Sunday.
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Re: Kiss didn't make it.

Post by Gunner » Thu Dec 17, 2009 1:23 pm

I don't see any reason why KISS should be inducted in any case, anymore than say, Take That should, does anyone else? And if so, I would like your reasons.

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Re: Kiss didn't make it.

Post by Dannorama » Thu Dec 17, 2009 2:50 pm

Kiss should be in, without a question. In terms of influence, impact, and overall importance, they are indisputably well qualified. Let's just make sure to honor those whose influence had an important impact on them...!

For example, say, um... Alice Cooper?

Click on this:
http://www.sickthingsuk.co.uk/people/kiss.php
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Re: Kiss didn't make it.

Post by GailsFriend » Thu Dec 17, 2009 4:15 pm

Yes, I agree. It should be Alice Cooper inducted BEFORE Kiss. Both were strong influences of a generation.

My walls were decorated with Kiss and Alice Cooper posters when I was 9 years old....and those were the ONLY albums I wanted to listen to on my record player. I had an automatic return on my stereo, so EVERY NIGHT,I would listen to my Kiss or Alice Cooper albums over and over while I slept . My needles were worn out, the grooves on the albums were white from being played so much. Thank God for Digital!

I am sorry, but there are not stories like that about Genesis.
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Re: Kiss didn't make it.

Post by RemarkablyInsincere » Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:09 pm

GailsFriend wrote:I am sorry, but there are not stories like that about Genesis.
Don't kid yourself. There are fanatical Genesis fans the same as there are fanatical Alice and Kiss fans.

I'm a big Genesis fan myself, although I prefer the 76-83 era of the band led by Collins over the Gabriel stuff (although the Gabriel era stuff is *great* too).

They truly have released some great and unique music in their career although most people only know the ultra-commercial stuff.
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Re: Kiss didn't make it.

Post by Toronto Bob » Thu Dec 17, 2009 7:57 pm

GailsFriend wrote:Yes, I agree. It should be Alice Cooper inducted BEFORE Kiss. Both were strong influences of a generation.

My walls were decorated with Kiss and Alice Cooper posters when I was 9 years old....and those were the ONLY albums I wanted to listen to on my record player. I had an automatic return on my stereo, so EVERY NIGHT,I would listen to my Kiss or Alice Cooper albums over and over while I slept . My needles were worn out, the grooves on the albums were white from being played so much. Thank God for Digital!

I am sorry, but there are not stories like that about Genesis.
You have no idea what Genesis stories are out there then. My god, the dedication Genesis fans have shown to THE MUSIC dwarfs anything I've seen Alice fans do. They are dedicated in a different way. Genesis fans have kept an aural history that Alice fans can't begin to comprehend. I prefer Alice's best music to Genesis but I prefer Genesis fans and their collective knowledge and appreciation of the music of their chosen band.

Don't mean to insult anyone it's just that dedicated fans of certain artists/groups prioritize differently. Here's a story that will show you just how dedicated Genesis fans can be to their band - and how selfless they are with other Genesis fans.
Genesis - Shepperton, The 16mm film
Shepperton Studios, Borehamwood, UK: 30th-31st October 1973

1. Opening Credits
2. Watcher of the Skies
3. Dancing with the Moonlit Knight
4. I Know What I Like
5. The Musical Box
6. Supper's Ready
7. Closing Credits

Plus Easter Egg!

Pro-shot film, footage digitised frame by frame direct from 16mm master reel to PAL 25fps. (See below for exact details!)


Credits:
Source: King Lerch and the members of MeeksGenesis

Video Transfer, Source Clean Up, DVD Authoring and other general extreme hard work : King Lerch
Audio Remastering: SAB (DanLore)
Artwork: RH Productions

Adam's Production Notes on "Genesis @ Shepperton - the 16mm film":


Summary
I originally thought I should not create an essay like this as it is rather pretentious and long-winded. I certainly don’t expect most people to read or even be interested in it. But I know that if I don’t write down the process when I am able to remember it, I most likely won’t be able to remember it at all when someone does ask something about it.


As a quick summary, this source was not perfect and suffered from some damage. Also, this is a dark 16mm film not Hollywood film quality. I did the best I could, learned a lot about the process, and never took shortcuts. A big thanks to Gunnar Thalin, the Swedish video expert who helped with great information. Several times I went back to the first step all over again to compare and get the best possible final product.


Test versions were sent to 4 testers in different parts of the world. Their suggestions were some of the best I’ve ever received and I was able to incorporate almost all of them. As one of the testers said, “This may not be the holy grail…but it is his older brother.”



Auction
It was over 6 months ago when I noticed a 16mm Genesis film was being auctioned from a NY estate sale. There was no way to be sure of the contents, quality, authenticity, or value. After discussing it with some collectors I know, I was prepared to make a high bid. But adding the costs to do a proper transfer, I didn’t know if my bid would be high enough to win.


Then I read that a small group wanted to pitch in and buy this film. Rather than bid against each other, we thought it was much better to join resources. We were able to come up with enough to make a substantial bid and help pay for the transfer as well.


It was explained that no one had any idea of the film’s condition. It could be damaged, worse than existing copies, untransferable, etc. We all took a risk in hopes we could benefit from a great film, or reduce the losses if it was not good. We won the auction, sent a huge money order, received the film, packed it up again, sent it fully insured to the lab, and hoped for the best.



Source
The source was a 16mm film shot at 25 frames per second. It is Kodak date coded with a triangle and plus which indicates 1973. This is significant in that it is not a recent production or a copy of a copy. However, there are old Kodak films that suffer from “red shift” where the organic parts of the film change over time leaving extra amounts of red. This film was no exception.


Although I don’t remember where I got this information, I remember hearing that several copies of this concert were printed on 16mm film for distribution to schools or small theatres. It is unknown how many of these films exist or where they were used. There is no doubt in my mind that these are a professional production, and a distinct “Charisma Reel One” can be heard at the very beginning of the film.


[UPDATE: I spoke with a friend about this film and he only recently mentioned that he saw this film not just on video but in the spring of 1974 on 16mm. He is the only one I have spoken to who has actually seen this film in regular use. It was at an Atlantic Records hotel suite at a national college radio convention in NYC. They dimmed the lights, wheeled out a 16mm projector, and showed the film on the wall. Everyone thought it was amazing. More amazing is that our print from "a NY estate sale of someone in the music business" is possibly the exact same print.]


Also, there are artifacts in the film like spots, marks, etc that are on all copies of the film. These are not removable or cleanable, just a clue that all of these films have the same “parent”. Another clue that these 16mm film(s) have the same source is the audio.


16mm audio is very distinct. Not only is it rather poor quality, but because of the unique 25 fps speed it is often played at the more common 24 fps speed where the sound is 4% slow. All of the sources we have seen (correct me if I am wrong) such as the Old Grey Whistle Test, Speakeasy, documentaries, etc all have this 16mm audio. If something better than a 16mm film exists, it is not easily available.



Transfer
Because the 25 frames per second film matches perfectly the PAL video standard, a 720x576 transfer was done. This has better color than NTSC, 100 more lines of resolution, and does not require any speed changes or frame blending.


The film was slowly projected 1 frame at a time directly onto the 3CCD chip of a PAL DV digital video camera. This allows corrections for brightness and color with each frame of film and gets the most detail. Instead of trying to catch 25 constantly moving frames per second, this process can examine each frame as slow as necessary.


The biggest disadvantage of the frame-by-frame transfer (other than the higher cost) is that sound cannot be captured at the same time. It must be added later. Also note that with my agreement the transfer lab did a 5% underscan of the film with a small black border around the edges. Since TVs usually overscan by 5%-10%, this keeps more of the picture viewable without zooming.



Sound
The sound from this and most 16mm films is printed along the side of the film like waveforms. This is read by a bulb in the projector so the quality is not great, somewhere around a 8.5 kHz spectrum. The sound remastering was done by SAB so I don’t know all of the specifics. I know he was able to get a great result from a mediocre 16mm source. It has a stereo simulation and increased low end which adds great depth. I corrected the sound for speed and pitch, the first time for this concert that I know of.



Color
The first major task was to correct the color. The amount of red in the film is simply ridiculous. It washed everything else away. The color red is also the most difficult for compression and encoding software to deal with. It causes unnatural lines, compression artifacts, almost all video problems show themselves in the color red (lucky us). To see just how red the original film was, look for the DVD Easter Egg.


It appears as if on previous film transfers that this red was reduced, but much of the image details reside in the red so it cannot just be turned down. I struggled with the color for a long time and did several comparisons to A History video to get it as close as possible.


Also, the film is not 100% consistant. Some parts are redder than others, some are brighter than others, etc. So certain corrections could not be applied to fix one scene without adversely affecting another scene. And as a general rule, all changes have at least one side-effect. So a happy medium had to be reached between redness, detail, noise, brightness, darkness, etc. All color was changed with TMPGEnc.



Filters
I used a few filters with VirtualDub and AVISynth. Each filter was applied with only lossless compression (averaging 10-30GB / 15 minutes of video) so more filters did not reduce image quality. I won’t go into every filter but the most major improvement was from the Temporal Smoother.


Most films are 35mm (4 times the size of 16mm) or even larger. So when this 16mm film is expanded on large TVs, the film grain can be seen in the form of dots or blobs of color. When watching the raw film, it looks as if non-moving objects are bubbling or crawling or something. The Temporal Smoother looks for these spots that show up for only one film frame and smoothes them out. The image and structure are more visible but the effects of video noise or grain is significantly reduced.



Sound Sync
Because of the slow film transfer, sound had to be added afterward. This was a long process for several reasons. One reason is that two transfers are never exactly the same. Even a small change in speed would lose total sync by the end of the film. The other problem with this film is that it was recorded over 2 days. While the sync may look good during one part of the song, it may not exactly match another part of the song from the other day.


The first sync pass was done entirely by sight. As a double check, I examined sound frames from other real-time 16mm film transfers to verify accuracy. It should also be noted that at 25 fps, each frame of film covers 40 ms of sound. While this may not seem like much, being off by only a few frames of film can be very distracting.


I used Pinnacle Studio for the syncing and also the credits. This program is great in both features and bugs. Still I really like it. Over 100 of my rare photos were scanned to create interesting credits.



Compression
In order to work with the DVD standard, the film had to be compressed into MPEG-2 format. To do this I used the trusty TMPGEnc at a constant bitrate of 8000 MBPS. This compressed the film for DVD while retaining the closest possible result to the source. Also note that the total maximum bitrate allowable for DVDs is 9800 MBPS, more than 1500 MBPS of which is taken up by the uncompressed PCM audio. So 8000 MBPS is the true maximum for the video.


As a test I ran TMPEnc see what it “thought” the ideal bitrate would be before compression would begin to alter the image. It calculated 6500 MBPS so any differences from the DVD compression should only be a result of the MPEG-2 or TMPGEnc limitations, not bitrate.



NTSC
Because many people cannot use PAL DVDs, I thought it would be best to create an NTSC version too. This will have slightly lower quality at 720x480 and a converted frame rate of about 30 frames per second, but using the source video transfer will get the best possible result, much better than converting the PAL DVD later and compressing twice.


Converting from 25 to 30 frames per second is not easy. Most hardware and software that simply duplicate frames make very stuttery video. So for the PAL -> NTSC transfer I used Canopus ProCoder. This is a highly respected transfer program that converts the frame rate, blends frames when necessary, and creates very smooth running film.


However, my personal opinion is that the MPEG-2 tools in ProCoder alter the source too much so I again sent the lossless result from ProCoder over to TMPGEnc for DVD compression at 8000 MBPS.



Authoring
There are many programs to author DVDs and although I know it is not the best, I use DVD Workshop because it is very compatible and I am used to using it. I created a great custom menu with motion buttons, film motif, and background music to go with the credits.



Conclusion
I have worked on more than 15 film transfers and countless video transfers. Honestly, this project (Genesis at Shepperton) has taken much more time than I ever expected and had many more film problems than any I have seen. But my goal was not to have a perfect DVD nor is this possible. There are 1,000 ways to do things and it would take years to explore them all.


What I wanted was a Genesis film transfer that was significantly better than any that came before and one where I didn’t say, “I wish I would have done…” So I read a lot, did everything I knew how to do, and talked to several experts. I give you the Holy Grail…’s older brother.



- King Lerch

And I will suggest that there are no Alice stories like that, out there.










h
Last edited by Toronto Bob on Thu Dec 17, 2009 8:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Kiss didn't make it.

Post by Railwayman » Thu Dec 17, 2009 7:59 pm

Remark.... With you on that one, I think Genesis have done some great stuff ...Selling England, Lamb Lies Down, Trick Of The Tail all splendid efforts.

Without wishing to go too off topic regardless of whether Alice is in the HoF ..... ABBA !!! for goodness sake..... Rock 'n' Roll Hall Of Fame. What the hec are these people on ??!!!?

Why don't they come clean and just say it is the Popular Music HoF

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Re: Kiss didn't make it.

Post by A_MichaelUK » Thu Dec 17, 2009 9:13 pm

> I prefer Alice's best music to Genesis but I prefer Genesis fans and their collective knowledge and appreciation of the music of their chosen band.

I don't know where to begin with this. Exactly how many Alice Cooper fans do you know?!

>Here's a story that will show you just how dedicated Genesis fans can be to their band

I challenge you to do what certain Alice Cooper fans did during this last British tour.

>And I will suggest that there are no Alice stories like that, out there.

"I will suggest" you don't know what you're posting about, as there is at least one Alice Cooper fan who is trying to do something similar.

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Re: Kiss didn't make it.

Post by daytripper » Thu Dec 17, 2009 9:29 pm

I dont think Kiss should go in before Alice.

I figure they will eventually get to them. :rotfl:
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Re: Kiss didn't make it.

Post by glamprincess » Thu Dec 17, 2009 9:36 pm

Most major rock acts have their really-dedicated fans. There are no objective criteria to determine who's fans are the most dedicated anyways.

Alice Cooper has very dedicated fans, Kiss has very dedicated fans, Genesis has very dedicated fans, etc. How can it be determined who has more dedicated fans? Do you know all the fans? And how can you measure how dedicated each fan is? So it is rather pointless to argue that one rock act's fans are more dedicated than another rock act's.

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Re: Kiss didn't make it.

Post by Toronto Bob » Thu Dec 17, 2009 9:38 pm

I think KISS will make it in before Alice - and while they deserve to be in there clearly theyu shouldn't be in before Alice. But Metallica shouldn't be in there before Deep Purple so who knows.

Andy - I'll believe it when I see it, until then, I'm right and you're wrong (as usual). Now stop harassing me and try and be constructive and positive.

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Re: Kiss didn't make it.

Post by Toronto Bob » Thu Dec 17, 2009 9:44 pm

glamprincess wrote:Most major rock acts have their really-dedicated fans. There are no objective criteria to determine who's fans are the most dedicated anyways.

Alice Cooper has very dedicated fans, Kiss has very dedicated fans, Genesis has very dedicated fans, etc. How can it be determined who has more dedicated fans? Do you know all the fans? And how can you measure how dedicated each fan is? So it is rather pointless to argue that one rock act's fans are more dedicated than another rock act's.
You're right and that's why I specifically said fans are dedicated in different ways. Alice fans are very dedicated in their own way. I have my preferences, I just wanted to point out to Gailsfriend by a concrete example, that Genesis fans are quite dedicated, just not in a $1500-for-a-tube-of-mascara sort of way.

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Re: Kiss didn't make it.

Post by damiennalice » Thu Dec 17, 2009 9:54 pm

I think you owe an apology to Brian Nelson.

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Re: Kiss didn't make it.

Post by A_MichaelUK » Thu Dec 17, 2009 10:12 pm

>Andy - I'll believe it when I see it, until then,

That's point. I'm guessing you've never travelled to an Alice Cooper show, nor have you personally known many Alice Cooper fans. I've been corresponding and trading with other collectors since 1983 - that's why I asked you haw many people have you dealt with.

> I'm right and you're wrong (as usual). Now stop harassing me and try and be constructive and positive.

I dare you to tell Si, Jaded, Gorehound and SparkInTheDark they are not "dedicated".

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Re: Kiss didn't make it.

Post by A_MichaelUK » Thu Dec 17, 2009 10:20 pm

>You're right and that's why I specifically said fans are dedicated in different ways.

You also wrote:
"My god, the dedication Genesis fans have shown to THE MUSIC dwarfs anything I've seen Alice fans do."

So not only were you saying it's different, you also made a subjective judgement which implied Alice Cooper fans are not as dedicated. You also wrote:
"Genesis fans have kept an aural history that Alice fans can't begin to comprehend."

That statement appears to be based on very limited experience.

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Re: Kiss didn't make it.

Post by Shoesalesman » Fri Dec 18, 2009 1:10 am

A_MichaelUK wrote:I dare you to tell Si, Jaded, Gorehound and SparkInTheDark they are not "dedicated".
I'd even go as far as to say these folks (and a truckload of others here) are just plain NUTS! in their deeds and love for Alice.

One is surely certifiable via the DSM-IV... but I ain't saying which one.

Before I die and go to hell I NEED to do a Coop tour with the UK folks. One day maybe...
If I may put forward a slice of personal colostomy...

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Re: Kiss didn't make it.

Post by jacknifejohnny » Fri Dec 18, 2009 2:37 am

IMO Kiss are all show and no substance and i saw them at The Hammersmith Odean in "76"

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