Michael Jackson gets the credit.....

[ElectedPlus]

Alice has stolen many ideas to build up who he is. I think the trouble is - many artists can be seen as just copying what's been done by him, which leads to this disappointment that Alice is not credited for it.

It's that Picasso quote of 'bad artists copy, great artists steal'.

I can't see Michael Jackson copying so much from Alice. Tho it does make me wince on that quote of MJ bringing theatrics to rock'n'roll. If it was bringing theatrics to Pop, then that seems much more justified (imo).

But I guess this is words from one person - not a general consensus.

[RemarkablyInsincere]

I can't see Michael Jackson copying so much from Alice. Tho it does make me wince on that quote of MJ bringing theatrics to rock'n'roll.

Well put, I agree.

[Dragonlady]

Such things will always be. Every new generation thinks they own the world

I often point out that it wasn't the Beatles who were the first to go to India to study "world Music" etc.. Danny Kaye did that in the 40's, and I bet other have done so before but it wasn't "on record". Danny Kaye was doing "fusion" and "world music" way before these terms were invented.

Also if you watch Gene Kelly dance he was doing the moonwalk long before Michael Jackson was even born. Which doesn't diminish Jackson's skills he was an amazing dancer. Just saying.

[A_MichaelUK]

>can't see Michael Jackson copying so much from Alice. Tho it does make me wince on that quote of MJ bringing theatrics to rock'n'roll.

Well, there's a bit of a contradiction there. I think Alice was a big influence on Michael Jackson as your last sentence above indicates and as glamprincess explained. If you look at the different shows Jackson put on over the years, everything from the use of illusions, costumes, to the type of choreography, no – one was really doing it on that level before Alice Cooper (band and solo) did. I’m not saying Jackson wasn’t also influenced by the same things that Alice was influenced by (Broadway, for example), but in the early to mid – seventies, I think Jackson would have been very aware of what Alice was doing.

[The son of Don Quijote]

I think Alice was the one that took theatrics into extremes and made them popular in the realm of popular music. He was one of the pioneers and developed them. But I don't think it was totally just his idea to bring them to rock music.

I have a live album by Frank Zappa and Mothers of invention called Ahead of their time, which was recorded in 1968 but not released until 1993. The first half of the album is a play about two of the members of Mothers of invention leaving Frank Zappa and forming their own band. The play was written specifically for this Royal Albert hall concert and is backed up by BBC symphony orchestra (Surprisingly the normal part of the concert is not).

So Alice probably took influences from many sources and developed them into something that had his own personal touch and flavour and was the first one to get grand recognition of it.

[A_MichaelUK]

>But I don't think it was totally just his idea to bring them to rock music.

It's never been denied that others had dabbled in that idea before Alice did. Some of that stuff he would have been aware of and some of it he would not have been aware of.

>I have a live album by Frank Zappa and Mothers of invention called Ahead of their time, which was recorded in 1968 but not released until 1993.

I don't think anyone would deny that Frank Zappa was something of an influence.

[ElectedPlus]

I see - seems I've underestimated Jackson's live theatricality (beyond the costume and dance)... knew he was working with a magician for the 02 gigs, but didn't realise he used illusions before that.

Will have to see if there's anything on YouTube, I'm intrigued.

Edit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ix9GlHZdWY . Very decent! Similar use of shadow curtain too (like Psycho-Drama opening) , and a good old illusion of standing at that angle.

[Gunner]

It gets tiring doesn't it? As Alice fans we always have to listen to these inaccurate sweeping statments. I think even KISS deserve more credit for 'the show' than Jackson! The other day I heard that Jackson created 'the pop/rock video', it's funny because in my world 'Elected' was the first promo and WTMN TV special the first tv album - that incidentally featured Vincent Price!! Also, I heard that Jackson was innovative musically! REALLY?? Sounds like just good dance/pop to me!?? I never heard it as breaking new ground.

[pitkin88]

If we want to get technical we could argue Arthur Brown and Screaming Lord Sutch were doing Alice like stuff way before him.

[A_MichaelUK]

>If we want to get technical we could argue Arthur Brown and Screaming Lord Sutch were doing Alice like stuff way before him.

There's some truth there in relation to Arthur Brown, but Alice had never heard of Screaming Lord Sutch until the latter started to complain that Alice had stolen his act (which is nonsense).

[BUZZCOCK]

Of course Screaming Lord Sutch was inspired by Screamin' Jay Hawkins who had used props such as coffins in his show!
The bottom line is 'Alice Cooper' took the concept to a higher professional level and in my mind its not necessarily who did it first, but who took the risk to make it work as a piece of theatre! And we all know who took the risk!

[A_MichaelUK]

>The bottom line is 'Alice Cooper' took the concept to a higher professional level and in my mind its not necessarily who did it first, but who took the risk to make it work as a piece of theatre! And we all know who took the risk!

Everything you say is pretty much true, but the achievements of Alice Cooper (band and solo) go beyond even those which you describe, in that no - one took theatrics to the extreme that Alice Cooper (band and solo) did.

[glamprincess]

the achievements of Alice Cooper (band and solo) go beyond even those which you describe, in that no - one took theatrics to the extreme that Alice Cooper (band and solo) did.

Exactly. While there were a few people who had a few elements of theatricality (for example, Arthur Brown), rock concerts were essentially just bands playing their music onstage in the days before Alice Cooper came along. In fact, the original Alice Cooper group took a lot of flack for doing their big theatrical shows because many people in the rock music industry were worried that the big theatrical shows that Alice Cooper brought to rock n' roll, would change rock concerts forever and put less emphasis on the music.
Alice Cooper brought huge theatrical productions to arenas and changed the rock spectacle forever. Now that everyone from Kiss to Madonna does big theatrical shows, people seem to forget Alice Cooper's role as the forerunner of the big rock show. When there was originally criticism (as I just mentioned), Alice Cooper took all the flack. Now that theatrics in rock is acceptable and even praised, it seems that a lot of other people are getting the credit!!

[A_MichaelUK]

>There's some truth there in relation to Arthur Brown

I just want to add that The Spiders were putting on visual performances years before they eventually became Alice Cooper (and that was before Alice Cooper had even heard of Arthur Brown, as most of you will know).

[BUZZCOCK]

'No one took theatrics to the extreme that Alice Cooper (band and solo) did.'

I agree 100%, indeed if you look at any footage of Brown, Hawkins or Sutch, its clear that it was more for novelty value than a genuine desire to expand theatrics in rock music!

[Gunner]

If we want to get technical we could argue Arthur Brown and Screaming Lord Sutch were doing Alice like stuff way before him.

If we want to get 'technical' we WOULD agree that Arthur Brown and Screaming Lord Sutch were doing stuff before Alice, but the point is this; Do we deny that? Do we claim that Alice invented theatrical rock? And is that made as general sweeping statements by the media to the world as complete propaganda particularly to the younger generations? Let's face it, does not all this propaganda tie in with Alice Cooper's absence from the RR Hall of Fame?

[Gunner]

I suppose 'Rain' (Beatles) was the first promo in a way, but pop video evolved and you have to say that if we are talking about developing 'visuals' in pop/rock then Alice Cooper HAS to be pretty much at the top in terms of influence. The 'Elected' film was innovative, I suppose the next one was 'Bohemian Rhapsody' by Queen, but to call 'Jackson' creator of pop video is inaccurate propaganda and we all know that here.

[mattcoddington]

michael started using famed illusionist franz harary in 1983. alice used him in 1986. it works both ways.

[A_MichaelUK]

>it works both ways.

Absolutely (although Alice Cooper used an illusionist long before Jackson did).

[WickedYoungMan]

Perhaps using Vincent Price in the Thriller music video is another (if not obvious) hint of an AC influence.