Why Was Dept Of Youth A Flop?

[A_MichaelUK]

>It is hugely acclaimed in both fan and critic circles. It is hailed as a classic. So I would change the word 'largely'.

Exactly. I made that point earlier in the thread, but Gunner chose to ignore it.

>You could actually also speculate that Ozzy Osbourne's Bark at the moon or No more tears were largely living on the past glories.

Exactly.

[glamprincess]

Maybe they were stronger tracks, but they weren't 'new', exciting, and rockers weren't going to buy singles of any of those tracks you metioned. Also, the 'teeny bop rebel rock pop' thing had gone by then to a large degree.

I do agree that Alice changing his image and being less of a 'rebel' did start to disappoint some of his fans. But, on the other hand, I don't think it's true that DOY and other rockers didn't become big hits because they weren't "new" and "exciting" because many hit songs on the radio are NOT that "new" and "exciting" and are often quite mediocre. Think about it: If the criteria for a song to become a hit was that it was "new and exciting" then the majority of the crap on the radio would never be hits! So, I don't think lack of being "new and exciting" was the reason.

[Gunner]

You are correct when you say that "many hit songs on the radio are NOT that 'new' and 'exciting' " (although, that is subjective to an extent), but we are talking about hard rock singles, not pop/dance commercial ditties. This is the crux of the matter; not so much as 'why was DOY not a hit?', but 'why were the only hits Alice had from 75 onwards ballads?'. Just what hard rock singles were hits from 1975 to say, 1980 unless they were really really commercial? Rockers have never really bought singles, what big hit singles did KISS and/or Aerosmith have in the 70s? The market was different in the early 70's, Alice Cooper's early 70's hard rock singles were hits because at the time 'hard rock' was the 'pop' of the early 70's and Alice was like the 'villain' pin up/poster boy in the glam rock era. And really, if you think about it, only 'School's Out' was the 'biggie', the ones after that were 'riding' on the back of that to an extent, and the ones prior to that demonstrated the breakthrough of a new exciting band which was often taken as single tracks on the radio ect.

Andy, I've just caught sight of your comment about ignoring...........yes, good, well spotted.

[A_MichaelUK]

>Andy, I've just caught sight of your comment about ignoring...........yes, good, well spotted.

Also, you're ignoring what The son of Don Quijote said, but that's your choice.

[The son of Don Quijote]

You have to remember that many hard rock bands that arrived in the late 60's and early 70's started to lose some of their popularity after the mid 70's when punk and disco became huge. Actually classic hard rock was not so popular in 1978 than it was for example in 1973. There was decline in popularity for Black Sabbath, Uriah heep and Deep Purple not just for Alice when 70's neared its end (Don't get wrong. I'm not saying that albums by those artists were commercial flops at the time but there was definately decline in popularity). One part of it can sometimes be explained by decline in quality and the other by disco and punk stealing some of the hard rock's spotlight.

Judas priest however were growing its fan base in late seventies but that band came years later than before mentioned bands so it doesn't make my statement controversial. Many of these points were stated in previous posts in some form but I wanted to be more exact.

[Toronto Bob]

tsk tsk

[Mad Axeman]

DOY was a flop because it's a lame song.

Poison was a hit because it's catchy. It's still a mainstay in rock clubs and kids who were 2 yrs old when it was released still 'rock out' to it.

[Gunner]

You have to remember that many hard rock bands that arrived in the late 60's and early 70's started to lose some of their popularity after the mid 70's when punk and disco became huge. Actually classic hard rock was not so popular in 1978 than it was for example in 1973. There was decline in popularity for Black Sabbath, Uriah heep and Deep Purple not just for Alice when 70's neared its end (Don't get wrong. I'm not saying that albums by those artists were commercial flops at the time but there was definately decline in popularity). One part of it can sometimes be explained by decline in quality and the other by disco and punk stealing some of the hard rock's spotlight.

Judas priest however were growing its fan base in late seventies but that band came years later than before mentioned bands so it doesn't make my statement controversial. Many of these points were stated in previous posts in some form but I wanted to be more exact.

I could not disagree with a word of that, none of that conflicts with anything I have said either.

Punk, DISCO and KISS very much reduced the demand for Alice Cooper, this is why his ballads were the only Cooper hits in the mid to late 70s (aside from the fact that they were ALL bloody good ballads!!).

Re Priest; you raise an interesting point there, they were indeed a popular heavy metal band in the mid to late 70s - even in the UK where Punk was BIG!! I'm really not sure of the reason, other than they were re-defining metal with twin guitar and the singer had short hair and biker jacket like the punks!!??????

[Mr. Skull]

DOY was a flop because it's a lame song.

At least the single version, when it was played as the opening song in the DD tour it sounded great though...IMO ofcourse

[recoop]

Can only add my opinion-DOY was a similaR theme sort of to Schools Out-teenage rebellion-Alice has been criticised a fair bit for retreading old ground-cold ethyl-similar subjectto I love the Dead-I'm Going Home similar music to i Love the Dead..I lived in central Scotland in 75 and many die hard Alice fans at that time in my area felt that this was too poppy/he had gone soft..also unhappy he had left group..I guess this was reflected to some degree in UK sales of album..not that great... I liked it more than my mates...also think that airplay limited/having not toured UK since 72 didnt help given success of BDB in UK.

[Gunner]

..when it was played as the opening song in the DD tour it sounded great though...IMO ofcourse

That's true! The live version as the opener soundded great! It was heavier, just the whole mix and arrangent blasted the studio version to pieces!!

[Shoesalesman]

DOY was a flop because it's a lame song.

Have to disagree with you, my good man. Department Of Youth highlights some of the initial innocence of the Alice character. Out of all the dangerous traits and aspects of Alice that have progressed up to the Welcome To My Nightmare album, DOY is a nice venture into innocent rebellion, backed up with a great cascading melody.

[Mad Axeman]

DOY was a flop because it's a lame song.

Have to disagree with you, my good man. Department Of Youth highlights some of the initial innocence of the Alice character. Out of all the dangerous traits and aspects of Alice that have progressed up to the Welcome To My Nightmare album, DOY is a nice venture into innocent rebellion, backed up with a great cascading melody.

As a dedicated Sicky you would understand that Shoey.
But your average 'Joe public' who has probably only ever heard Schools out, and limited pocket money to spend, would have to choose between DOY, Bohemian Rhapsody or Born to run.
Hmmmmmm decisions decisions

[shock rock]

IMO .i also thought DOY was a lame song.Furthermore i do believe some people put too much stock into "single" positions.Eighteen was a huge hit for LITD,but the subsequent release of Killer saw 2 more singles,that may not have charted as high as TOP 40 is concerned,but Killer hit gold/platinum before LITD.Actually Killer hit the platinum mark (certified 1986) before SO,which contains his biggest hit.Some songs are better suited for Top 40 radio,then others.Aside from WTMY, all Alice's most notable albums have a distinct "rocker" on it ie.LITD (18).Killer (UMW ,BML),SO.(SO)),BDB (Elected ,NMMNG ,BDB),and Trash (Poison).but also remember Nightmare has the the title track which was not Top 40,but was a hit track.Whereas albums that came after the aforementioned nightmare had no "rockers" released as singles,and consequently had reduced sales compared to their lofty predecessors.The singles "I Never Cry",You & Me".and "How U Gonna See Me Now" all charted really high,but are not regarded as classic Alice songs like say the non Top 40 hits..BDB,UMY ,WTMN or BML.So my point to this.

Whether this means anything,i don't know..but look no further then AC/DC or Ozzy,both have many great hits/tracks,but how many of their well known songs charted high on the singles chart??

[Shoesalesman]

DOY was a flop because it's a lame song.

Have to disagree with you, my good man. Department Of Youth highlights some of the initial innocence of the Alice character. Out of all the dangerous traits and aspects of Alice that have progressed up to the Welcome To My Nightmare album, DOY is a nice venture into innocent rebellion, backed up with a great cascading melody.

As a dedicated Sicky you would understand that Shoey.
But your average 'Joe public' who has probably only ever heard Schools out, and limited pocket money to spend, would have to choose between DOY, Bohemian Rhapsody or Born to run.
Hmmmmmm decisions decisions

I get that piece and I suppose I'm speaking more of the song in general than what went over publically, it's just a shame that this tune didn't go higher or reach as far. While some folks mourn the departure of the more sinister character in the mid-70s, I find the showtune/ballad influence from this era to be a nice addition to the mix.

[A_MichaelUK]

>Actually Killer hit the platinum mark (certified 1986)

In case you don't know, the date of certification is not necessarily the date the album achieved platinum status.

[Mad Axeman]

I get that piece and I suppose I'm speaking more of the song in general than what went over publically, it's just a shame that this tune didn't go higher or reach as far. While some folks mourn the departure of the more sinister character in the mid-70s, I find the showtune/ballad influence from this era to be a nice addition to the mix.

And here I'm afraid I must disagree with you old chap.
Ever since I first listened to WTMN I have skipped DOY, it sticks out of the album like a broken sore thumb. To put a song so frivolous and twee in the middle of such a great and sinister album was an unfortunate decision IMO.
It also fails totally to stand alone. Hence low sales.

No offence meant.

[Gunner]

To put a song so frivolous and twee in the middle of such a great and sinister album was an unfortunate decision IMO.

I think actually, it was meant to be 'the hit single' (and OWB was!!) from the album. It was meant to be like '18', 'My Generation' or something and failed miserably as it was contrived, without the old band and the true rebellion in Alice was seen as incredible after appearing on things like 'Hollywood Squares', hanging out with movies stars and playing golf.

[Shoesalesman]

No offence meant.

All is good, mate.

I find Department Of Youth to be up there with Some Folks, Cold Ethyl and Escape; good use of theme and placement on the album. It balances out the heavier themes, adding a bit of rebellion in the middle of WTMN. Good support for Cold Ethyl too.