Did B$B kill the band?

[Gunner]

Was this album so glossy, commercial, contrived and conceptual that it took the heart out of the band and created a chasm between the lead singer and the rest of the band??

I think so.

[scotty]

I agree.I think it started falling apart on school's out as well with all the extra musicians like reggie vincent,dick wagner,all the horn players,even little kids singing.I thought once I heard shades of west side story on the album that there was just no way that all the guys were on board with this huge production(s).
Then you put on B$B and it kicks off with a judy collins cover,and any notion that things weren't going way over the top goes out the window.
just give me simple rock and roll please.drums,bass,two guitars and alice.the show can be on the stage.

[Gunner]

Yes, I think you have a point about School's Out too, maybe it should have been 'Sell out for summer!'?

[A_MichaelUK]

>I think so.

I disagree and based on the last time I spoke to Dennis Dunaway and Neal Smith, they would disagree also. Your post is pretty amusing actually, because of all the factors that have been suggested for the break up of the band, the "Billion Dollar Babies" album has never been suggested as being a possible factor!

[A_MichaelUK]

>I think it started falling apart on school's out as well with all the extra musicians like reggie vincent,dick wagner,all the horn players,even little kids singing.

You mean a lot of things that most people actually like about that album?!

>I thought once I heard shades of west side story on the album that there was just no way that all the guys were on board with this huge production(s).

I assume that you're not aware of the number of times different band members have said what a big influence "West Side Story" was on them, then!

>Then you put on B$B and it kicks off with a judy collins cover,and any notion that things weren't going way over the top goes out the window.

I think you've missed the fact that "Billion Dollar Babies" was supposed to be about being "over the top". Why do you think it was even called that? That's like saying that legendary picture of the band with all that money is "over the top". That was the whole point.

>just give me simple rock and roll please.drums,bass,two guitars and alice.

That's a fair comment, taken in isolation.

[Baz]

I agree.I think it started falling apart on school's out as well with all the extra musicians like reggie vincent,dick wagner,all the horn players,even little kids singing.I thought once I heard shades of west side story on the album that there was just no way that all the guys were on board with this huge production(s).
Then you put on B$B and it kicks off with a judy collins cover,and any notion that things weren't going way over the top goes out the window.
just give me simple rock and roll please.drums,bass,two guitars and alice.the show can be on the stage.

Totally disagree with this post

With regards to SO, i`ve actually come to appreciate this album more the older i`ve got.
In my opinion, having the horns , and indeed having an instrumental track on the album, just showed how at ease the band were with the album, and how much together they were as a band.
Having the extra musicians may well have been because Glen wasn`t `up to par ` because of his problems, why thats a bad thing i don`t know.

And Billion Dollar Babies, was meant to be glossy and contrived, OTT if you will, hence the wallet cover and billion dollar note, pure flash.

[Baz]

Yes, I think you have a point about School's Out too, maybe it should have been 'Sell out for summer!'?

I assume by `sell out` you mean becoming a commercial success.

[Baz]

Was this album so glossy, commercial, contrived and conceptual that it took the heart out of the band and created a chasm between the lead singer and the rest of the band??

I think so.

Why do you think that ? after the release of this album, and the biggeset grossing tour in the history of rock n roll, they ruled the world.

[pitkin88]

>I think so.

I disagree and based on the last time I spoke to Dennis Dunaway and Neal Smith, they would disagree also. Your post is pretty amusing actually, because of all the factors that have been suggested for the break up of the band, the "Billion Dollar Babies" album has never been suggested as being a possible factor!

Have to say I find this amusing too. The only way I think that " Billion Dollar Babies " could have been a cause for killing the band was the tour itself which was very physically demanding on all concerned. It was also an album that was very hard to top or equal though Alice did come close once with WTMN.

[TeresofBlood]

Great point, pitkin88. The tour is often the cause of a band's downfall. Cream broke up after only three albums because all three men were so physically exhausted by the number of performance dates and the sheer volume of each performance.

The same is surely possible here. I don't think B$B, the album was the source of downfall. I think a great deal was probably argument over where to go next, both before and after Muscle of Love. Alice obviously wanted theatrical gothic rock, while the others wanted to lean toward straightforward rock and roll. At least it seems that way.

[Gunner]

Why do you think that ? after the release of this album, and the biggeset grossing tour in the history of rock n roll, they ruled the world.

But, you see, commercial success doesn't necessarily equate to contentment within a band musically or personally. In fact, quite the opposite as the band starts to lose its roots, 'hunger' and originality.

[Gunner]

Great point, pitkin88. The tour is often the cause of a band's downfall. Cream broke up after only three albums because all three men were so physically exhausted by the number of performance dates and the sheer volume of each performance.

The same is surely possible here. I don't think B$B, the album was the source of downfall. I think a great deal was probably argument over where to go next, both before and after Muscle of Love. Alice obviously wanted theatrical gothic rock, while the others wanted to lean toward straightforward rock and roll. At least it seems that way.

I think some of you are missing the point entirely here. The album was to create a concept, to soundtrack a show and manifest into an over-intensive tour that would showcase the album that would very much focus on Alice and move away from the band's music. The album would effectively take the heart out of the original band, commercialise it and elevate Alice to a showman with a 'backing band' effectively. It was a contrived effort particularly on the part of Shep and Bob. The album was to intentionally instigate all of that with its production, songs and concept. THAT is what is meant.

[A_MichaelUK]

>But, you see, commercial success doesn't necessarily equate to contentment within a band musically or personally. In fact, quite the opposite as the band starts to lose its roots, 'hunger' and originality.

Based on the comments made about the album by the band themselves, none of the above is true.

[Gunner]

>I think it started falling apart on school's out as well with all the extra musicians like reggie vincent,dick wagner,all the horn players,even little kids singing.

You mean a lot of things that most people actually like about that album?!

Yes, I think he does, and what many people like can be irrelevant to the point he is making.

>I thought once I heard shades of west side story on the album that there was just no way that all the guys were on board with this huge production(s).

I think you've missed the fact that "Billion Dollar Babies" was supposed to be about being "over the top". Why do you think it was even called that? That's like saying that legendary picture of the band with all that money is "over the top". That was the whole point.

That was the whole point Andy, yes. The album had the same intentions as 'Trash' to 'sell out', only at this time it was at the expense of a band unit and band members. You need to see my earlier post about the overall intention of the record to understand what is meant by this thread.

[A_MichaelUK]

>I think some of you are missing the point entirely here. The album was to create a concept, to soundtrack a show and manifest into an over-intensive tour that would showcase the album that would very much focus on Alice and move away from the band's music.

No. That’s not true. Unless you can point to a specific example where the album was meant to put the “focus” on the lead singer, that’s totally false. If you’re referring to the stage – show, that’s a different matter entirely (Michael Bruce has had plenty to say about that) and has nothing to do with the album in this respect.

>The album would effectively take the heart out of the original band, commercialise it and elevate Alice to a showman with a 'backing band' effectively.

What makes you think that you know this? The thing is, you don't. Rather than make generalisations which are actually false, give us the specific examples which have led you to think this way. How do you explain the fact the band would disagree with you on this? Is it that you know more about the making of the album than they do?

> The album was to intentionally instigate all of that with its production, songs and concept. THAT is what is meant.

Give examples.

[Gunner]

>I think some of you are missing the point entirely here. The album was to create a concept, to soundtrack a show and manifest into an over-intensive tour that would showcase the album that would very much focus on Alice and move away from the band's music.

No. That’s not true. Unless you can point to a specific example where the album was meant to put the “focus” on the lead singer, that’s totally false. If you’re referring to the stage – show, that’s a different matter entirely (Michael Bruce has had plenty to say about that) and has nothing to do with the album in this respect.

Well, by that time already, the focus lyrically and visually was very much on Alice anyway, and this has been the intention for at least two years or so - this was just to 'step it up' a bit! If you really need an example from B$B, then 'I love the dead' and 'Unfinished Sweet' seemed to put Alice in the limelight somewhat. The point I'm trying to make here (and I'm sure you know what it is) is that, this album was to take the whole Alice Cooper concept to a climax with the show and make the music somewhat even more commercially acceptable that what School's Out was going to. I think it would be to go as far as they could without making this an entire solo project - which was destined to be the next stop.

[A_MichaelUK]

>Well, by that time already, the focus lyrically and visually was very much on Alice anyway,

That’s true, but that you could say that about just about any band, though. What does that have to do with the “Billion Dollar Babies” album?

>and this has been the intention for at least two years or so –

Be more specific. Stop throwing out random statements. Whose “intention” was it?

>If you really need an example from B$B, then 'I love the dead' and 'Unfinished Sweet' seemed to put Alice in the limelight somewhat.

So what if they did? So did “Dead Babies” and “The Ballad Of Dwight Fry” or any number of songs. That’s like saying “Satisfaction” “put” Keith Richards “in the limelight”. So what? Are you saying that one hundred per cent of every song must feature each band member equally? This really is one of the strangest threads created.

>The point I'm trying to make here (and I'm sure you know what it is)

I genuinely don’t, so don’t make assumptions (which is all that you have been doing).

>is that, this album was to take the whole Alice Cooper concept to a climax with the show and make the music somewhat even more commercially acceptable that what School's Out was going to.

That may be true, but you said this might have led to the break up of the band, though. You still haven’t shown why that might be the case. That’s like saying “Pretties For You” led to the break up of the band just because it was the first in a series of albums which culminated in the event you’re talking about.

>I think it would be to go as far as they could without making this an entire solo project - which was destined to be the next stop.

Total nonsense. Go and ask Neal, Michael or Dennis if they thought this album was anywhere close to being “an entire solo project”.

[pitkin88]

I have to agree whole heartedly with Andy here.
To suggest that BDB's was some conspiracy between Shep and Alice to destroy the band is way off.

[steven_crayn]

Billion Dollar Babies along with Killer is for me the best Alice Cooper group album, so it didn't kill the band it was the high point of the band because it was a commercial as well as artistic success.

[aliceclone12]

It didnt kill the band, i aggree with the above it was a highlight, and when i listen to it, its the best moments of my life!