WTMN part 2?

[ElectedPlus]

Are you suggesting that hit = good music ?? 'cause, only speaking for myself obviously, and I'd be interested in what others have to say, but personally I couldn't have any less concern over how popular a song is. If it's good music to my ears, that's all there is to it - I wouldn't really care if it's good music to lots of other ears too. Sure it might be important, and particularly the record company will care, but who are we to say what'll get a hit and what won't?

Not being completely knowledgable on this subject, but I'm very sure it's near impossible to consciously create a hit ... you don't know how well it's going to be received until it's out there, surely? Well, unless you win a nationwide televised talent show...

[criss]

No im not suggesting that hit = good music , some of the greatest coop tunes never had a chance at being a hit on the popular charts . And some of the great coop albums (in my eyes or should i say ears ) have nt had hits .

I agree i doubt anyone can sit down and say im going to write this tune and it ll be a hit .

Im not saying haveing Ezrin , Wagner and the coop will produce a smash hit , but itll give mm a hell of a chance . And would break the current state of affairs ( not saying that the current state of affairs is wrong ) But it would be a bold fresh move .

Ezrin , wagner and the coop in my eyes is a no brainer for a future album .

Im totaly happy for the coop to keep doing what he is doing , im going to enjoy it and ill buy it etc .

The fact that the coop is even talking about WTMN2 in my eyes says he s at least thinking about doing a total 360 turn around from his progressive albums . Not saying this will ever happen or if it does what format and writers he would use , but it is very interesting to hear he is floating the idea .

[glamprincess]

I don't like the idea of calling it "Nightmare 2" or anything similar. I think Alice would run the risk of being seen as clinging to past glories - as if his name alone isn't enough.

I understand what you are saying here. I think you and WickedYoungMan are both right about the risk that Alice could be thought to be clinging to past glories. That is my concern too. And I agree with WickedYoungMan when he says that WtMN set the standard pretty high and if Alice were to do a "Nightmare 2-type" project, then the project better be great and meet the standard.

But the reason that I talked about a "Nightmare 2-type" project having name recognition is because I don't think Alice is getting the media exposure he sometimes needs. You think his name alone is enough, but I don't think it is enough sometimes and I'm going to give you the following example to prove my point:

In the Desert Sun article on the newspage (included with the Jan. 27 news), a fan of Alice's is posing with Alice at the Bob Hope golf tournament. After explaining that she used to be a real fan of Alice's back in the 1970s, she now compares him to the guy she thinks he only was back in the 1970s and says, "He was so different (back then), with his long hair and he was so crazy-looking."
She may have been a big fan back in the 70s, but she sure doesn't know much about Alice Cooper today. First of all, he still has his long hair! Since he ties it back when he plays golf, she obviously didn't notice that he didn't cut it and had just tied it back in a pony-tail. Second of all, she obviously doesn't realize that Alice still performs as "Alice Cooper" and still wears the makeup since she doesn't think he's "crazy-looking" anymore either. In other words, this woman seems to be completely unaware that Alice is still performing and being "Alice". Her comments seem to imply that she thinks Alice retired and even cut off his long hair. And she's someone who was once a big fan during Alice's heyday.

When big fans (from the past) don't even realize that Alice is still active, then that means that his name alone is not really enough these days.
So I do think that he needs to do something perhaps to generate more attention.

[Dannorama]

When big fans (from the past) don't even realize that Alice is still active, then that means that his name alone is not really enough these days.
So I do think that he needs to do something perhaps to generate more attention.

Valid point there, Glam. The story about the Golf Tourney fan is kind of sad to me. I think it's beacuse a lot of the old rock music fans have dropped out of the mix themselves. When they say "Well bless my stars and garters! I had no idea Alice Cooper still made records..." What they're saying is "I am too old to rock and roll, now fetch me my slippers" - not "Alice is off the radar."

I was looking at the back cover of KISS Alive recently...

http://www.kissonline.com/news/images/a ... kcover.JPG

I found myself wondering, "How many of those people still give a crap about KISS, or Alice, or anything to do with their old interests?" I would venture that a shocking majority of them would consider these things as relics of their youth, best left alone in the attic.

That all got me thinking about how tough it would be to maintain a career like Alice has. Look at him - he consistently plays larger venues to crowds of adoring (and plenty of younger!) fans. Bravo for that!

Don't get me wrong, I would be delighted to hear from Steven and the gang again... I just think that "Nightmare 2" would not spark as much interest as it would skepticism.

[Baz]

I don`t agree with the idea that any mention of Nightmare is a backward step, and would be viewed by fans as trying to cling on to past glories.
I don`t think that fans care what an album is called as long as the product stands up, and I also don`t agree with the view that old rock fans have dropped out of the mix either.
I have always considered rock fans to be the most loyal of all music fans , but unless you are a diehard fan, you do expect a certain standard to keep you interested.
If someone is not a great fan of a band, but gives that band a chance because the material is decent, they will buy. If the quality drops , they won`t, which in my humble opinion is what has happened in Alice`s case.

If a new album is called Return To Nightmare, Nightmare Pt 2,or Along Came Another Nightmre, or any other title containing Nightmare, is imaterial in my eyes. If it`s a storming album, people will buy it.

[glamprincess]

Valid point there, Glam. The story about the Golf Tourney fan is kind of sad to me. I think it's beacuse a lot of the old rock music fans have dropped out of the mix themselves. When they say "Well bless my stars and garters! I had no idea Alice Cooper still made records..." What they're saying is "I am too old to rock and roll, now fetch me my slippers" - not "Alice is off the radar."
I found myself wondering, "How many of those people still give a crap about KISS, or Alice, or anything to do with their old interests?" I would venture that a shocking majority of them would consider these things as relics of their youth, best left alone in the attic.
That all got me thinking about how tough it would be to maintain a career like Alice has. Look at him - he consistently plays larger venues to crowds of adoring (and plenty of younger!) fans. Bravo for that!
Don't get me wrong, I would be delighted to hear from Steven and the gang again... I just think that "Nightmare 2" would not spark as much interest as it would skepticism.

Thanks Danno.
Yes, the story about the golf tourney fan is a disappointing one. And I think you are right that some rock fans from the 60s/70s got "old" and got too old to rock n' roll. But does that mean that they should be totally unaware that Alice Cooper is still active in rock music? Does that mean that former fans should even think he cut off his hair and totally stopped rocking and rolling? Then the question becomes: Are these same people unaware that acts like Bruce Springsteen and the Stones are still performing? Probably not, as Springsteen and the Stones still sell out stadiums, indicating that people are still hearing about them. And that's where the need for "attention" does become an issue.

I think if Alice did decide to re-visit Welcome to My Nightmare, it would be okay if the quality of the music was there...and I do think that could be possible if talents like Bob Ezrin and Dick Wagner were maybe involved in the project.

And maybe when Alice plays those famous golf tournaments with large crowds of people, he should stop tying back his hair so people don't mistakenly think he cut his hair....or (gulp) even worse, think he lost his hair!

[Dannorama]

1. I don`t agree with the idea that any mention of Nightmare is a backward step, and would be viewed by fans as trying to cling on to past glories.

2. I have always considered rock fans to be the most loyal of all music fans , but unless you are a diehard fan, you do expect a certain standard to keep you interested.

3. If it`s a storming album, people will buy it.

1. I think if Alice did decide to re-visit Welcome to My Nightmare, it would be okay if the quality of the music was there...and I do think that could be possible if talents like Bob Ezrin and Dick Wagner were maybe involved in the project.

2. And maybe when Alice plays those famous golf tournaments with large crowds of people, he should stop tying back his hair so people don't mistakenly think he cut his hair....or (gulp) even worse, think he lost his hair!

This is what the board was made for! Engaging discussion between like-minded people.

Simply for discussion's sake, I numbered some things that I would respond to if we were somehow enjoying each other's company during this little exchange...

Baz, to your first point, I guess we'd have to wait and see which reaction occurs. Loser buys the beer! Second, I barely know anyone my age who still likes to rock. Could be the snotty crowd I'm forced to hang with, but rock music seems almost passe to my peers. Even the ones who say, "I used to have that record" seem to have transitioned away from rock and into reggae, country, or worse. And third, if he ever really goes that far, I would snap it up with glee, regardless of how I felt about the title.

Glam, you have touched on two of my favorite daydreams. I would be happy as a pig if Ezrin and/or Wagner got behind another Cooper record. I am perplexed why these apparently good friends don't work together. And, How lucky is it that AC still has his rockin long hair. Sure, a little thinner, but look at Ian Anderson or Peter Gabriel. Would a follically challenged Alice Cooper go with the "bald" cards he was dealt (like Gabriel), or would he get a 'piece? I also wonder if the whole rock thing never worked what he'd look like as just a regular 60 year old guy?

[Baz]

Dan, it must be the circles you move in my friend.
The guys I went to gigs with when I was 15 are the same guys i`m going to gigs with now, with one or two exceptions.
And not a reggae album in sight.

Of course tastes change, and for those guys who you mention, there`s the new breed taking their place, and I don`t think a `Nightmare` reference is going to make their minds up for them, one way or another.

One last point, how long before you swap the sound of the Coop, for the sound of `Duelling Banjo`s ` ?

[A_MichaelUK]

> I am perplexed why these apparently good friends don't work together.

No need to be. It more than likely is just different schedules and all that.

[Dannorama]

...how long before you swap the sound of the Coop, for the sound of `Duelling Banjo`s ` ?

Gimme a few more weeks. By the way... this weekend, me and my buddy here are taking a canoe trip down the Cahulawassee.

[criss]

If the coop Wagner and Ezrin wanted this to happen they would schedule and make it happen .

I know Dick Wagner has said he was interested in recording with the coop but has also stated that the coop is at his best being the coop and not follwing others . Maybe this was dicks way of saying i don t want or can t record progressive tunes . Sounds to me Dick was trying to get the coop to move away from his current crop of progressive styles and this did nt suit the coops agenda at that time . All pure speculation of course ,but dick was 100% interested in recording with the coop again but nothing came of it other than some demos .

He also said Ezrin owed him money but that was all water under the bridge , i took that as dick putting his hand out to ezrin and saying he would be willing to work with him .

[A_MichaelUK]

>If the coop Wagner and Ezrin wanted this to happen they would schedule and make it happen .

Not necessarily.

>Maybe this was dicks way of saying i don t want or can t record progressive tunes .

You’ve made that reference before. What do you mean by “progressive tunes”?

>Sounds to me Dick was trying to get the coop to move away from his current crop of progressive styles

Which “progressive styles”?

>and this did nt suit the coops agenda at that time . All pure speculation of course ,

No kidding.

>but dick was 100% interested in recording with the coop again but nothing came of it other than some demos .

But I bet that happens with 90% of all song –writing collaborations. Just because two or more particular writers get together, doesn’t mean that something great is going to be the result.

[glamprincess]

If a new album is called Return To Nightmare, Nightmare Pt 2,or Along Came Another Nightmre, or any other title containing Nightmare, is imaterial in my eyes. If it`s a storming album, people will buy it.

I agree. If people think it's great, then that's all that really matters in the end. Wise words from The Baz.

[criss]

If the coop Wagner and Ezrin wanted this to happen they would schedule and make it happen .

Not necessarily.

So this is pure speculation on your behalf that it can t or won t happen ? Plz spill the beans

Maybe this was dicks way of saying i don t want or can t record progressive tunes .

You’ve made that reference before. What do you mean by “progressive tunes”?

The coop has stated that he won t reform with the old band due to him wanting to continue his progressive approch to his albums . So i will go along with the coop and call many of the newer tunes progresive too .

Sounds to me Dick was trying to get the coop to move away from his current crop of progressive styles

Which “progressive styles”?

I class anything that avoids common song structures or common subjects as progressive . So take your pick of recent cooper tunes that fit into this bracket of mine

and this did nt suit the coops agenda at that time . All pure speculation of course ,

No kidding.

You seem to me doing quite a bit of speculateing yourself , are you just kidding too ? or do you have hard facts , plz spill the beans or are your speculations impossible to verify .

but dick was 100% interested in recording with the coop again but nothing came of it other than some demos .

But I bet that happens with 90% of all song –writing collaborations. Just because two or more particular writers get together, doesn’t mean that something great is going to be the result.[/quote]

so your speculateing again that if two or more particular writers get together they can't or won't write a hit . Well im speculateing that if the coop ,wagner , and ezrin get in a room that they may very well write a hit tune .

[glamprincess]

This is what the board was made for! Engaging discussion between like-minded people.

Simply for discussion's sake, I numbered some things that I would respond to if we were somehow enjoying each other's company during this little exchange...

Second, I barely know anyone my age who still likes to rock. Could be the snotty crowd I'm forced to hang with, but rock music seems almost passe to my peers. Even the ones who say, "I used to have that record" seem to have transitioned away from rock and into reggae, country, or worse. And third, if he ever really goes that far, I would snap it up with glee, regardless of how I felt about the title.

Glam, you have touched on two of my favorite daydreams. And, How lucky is it that AC still has his rockin long hair. Sure, a little thinner, but look at Ian Anderson or Peter Gabriel. Would a follically challenged Alice Cooper go with the "bald" cards he was dealt (like Gabriel), or would he get a 'piece? I also wonder if the whole rock thing never worked what he'd look like as just a regular 60 year old guy?

I agree Danno, it is nice to chat with other Alice fans.

In terms of my own friends, what I have found is that they still listen to rock music but maybe attend a bit fewer shows than they did when younger. (And when they do go to a rock concert, they want to hear the "hits"!) My friends, thank goodness though, have not ventured much into country n' western, reggae or rap and thankfully have stayed rock fans for the most part.
Hmmmm... Danno, maybe you need to switch those friends with the people here on this board.....

As for Alice's hair: I don't know if the younger fans realize this or not, but even though men and rock stars had long hair in the late 60s, the Alice Cooper group had almost longer hair than anybody when they first appeared. It was becoming common for men to start having shoulder-length hair in those days, but the Alice Cooper group had hair practically down to their bums...they always took things to the extreme. So Alice Cooper was always known for his long hair. In some ways, Alice's hair is even more a trademark than even the makeup. So that's why that golf tourney fan's comment was so blasphemous: since she didn't notice his ponytail in the back and thought he had short hair, she was basically saying that he wasn't Alice Cooper anymore...

[A_MichaelUK]

If the coop Wagner and Ezrin wanted this to happen they would schedule and make it happen .

>So this is pure speculation on your behalf that it can t or won t happen ?

Not at all. Why are you reading things into what I wrote? All I'm saying is that it is not necessarily true that "If the coop Wagner and Ezrin wanted this to happen they would schedule and make it happen ." When was life ever that simple?

Maybe this was dicks way of saying i don t want or can t record progressive tunes .

>The coop has stated that he won t reform with the old band due to him wanting to continue his progressive approch to his albums .

When did he state that? I think I know what you mean but I am willing to bet he never used the word "progressive". If he didn't, you're putting words into his mouth.

>So i will go along with the coop and call many of the newer tunes progresive too .

If you can site an example where Alice said exactly that, it would be helpful. Perhaps what you may mean is that Alice doesn't want to 'go backwards'. I've heard him say that, but never heard him use the word "progressive" in that context.

>I class anything that avoids common song structures or common subjects as progressive .

You just contradicted yourself. Before, you said that "The coop has stated that he won t reform with the old band due to him wanting to continue his progressive approch" as if you were quoting him directly, but now you're saying that you are the one who is applying the word "progressive" to his approach. That is really clouding the issue. Why not keep it simple and just say Alice doesn't want to 'go backwards' or something like that?

>So take your pick of recent cooper tunes that fit into this bracket of mine

So you think that songs like "Man Of The Year", "Perfect" or "I'm Hungry" are songs that avoid "common song structures"? Are you sure you're not mistaking Alice Cooper for The Mahavishnu Orchestra or something?!

>You seem to me doing quite a bit of speculateing yourself ,

Not as much as you and besides, I only did it because Dannorama was "perplexed why these apparently good friends don't work together" as if there was a big mystery to it.

>or do you have hard facts , plz spill the beans or are your speculations impossible to verify .

No less "impossible" than you saying "If the coop Wagner and Ezrin wanted this to happen they would schedule and make it happen". That's like me saying if I wanted to be a millionaire, I would find a way to "make it happen".

>so your speculateing again that if two or more particular writers get together they can't or won't write a hit

I didn't say that. Read what I DID say, not what you THINK I said. I said "Just because two or more particular writers get together, doesn’t mean that something great is going to be the result.", not that it "can't or won't" happen. Even if Burt Bacharach and Paul McCartney got together to write something, there's no guarantee something good will be the result.

> Well im speculateing that if the coop ,wagner , and ezrin get in a room that they may very well write a hit tune .

Again, you're not following what I wrote. I never said anything about a "hit tune".

[A_MichaelUK]

>No less "impossible" than you saying "If the coop Wagner and Ezrin wanted this to happen they would schedule and make it happen".

I meant no more "impossible" than you saying "If the coop Wagner and Ezrin wanted this to happen they would schedule and make it happen".

[Baz]

>So you think that songs like "Man Of The Year", "Perfect" or "I'm Hungry" are songs that avoid "common song structures"? Are you sure you're not mistaking Alice Cooper for The Mahavishnu Orchestra or something?!

I know this comment is not contributing to the discussion, and I have to say that Andys comments don`t usually make me smile too often, but this one made me chuckle.
Thanks for that.

[criss]

A_MichaelUK

I can already see where this is going , and looks to me like your going into your general nitpicking mode .

I could go into the minutiae till this thread gets locked but i don't feel the need or want to waste time and disturb this thread , it's also not much fun .

Sorry if you take offence but no offence is intended .

[A_MichaelUK]

>I can already see where this is going , and looks to me like your going into your general nitpicking mode .

No. What's happened is that you can't defend what you wrote then accuse the other person of "nitpicking". If you don't mean what you write, don't write it (unless you're joking), so that I or others don't waste time responding. If you do mean it, you have the right not to defend it, but don't insult my intelligence by refusing to that due to "nitpicking", if you don't mind.

>I could go into the minutiae till this thread gets locked

Why do you think that will happen? That says more about your argument than it does about anything else.

>but i don't feel the need or want to waste time and disturb this thread , it's also not much fun .

I wish I had known that before I responded yesterday, then. In other words, you're happy to "waste time" and perpetuate a thread, but not too happy to perpetuate it further to explain your comments. Thanks a lot.

>Sorry if you take offence but no offence is intended .

None taken.