Could Alice ever be blamed for violence or murder?

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Post by SKULLBOY » Wed Sep 03, 2008 1:01 am

glamprincess wrote:
BellaDonna wrote: Hitler and Manson set OUT TO COMMAND - to exterminate. Commanding death is NOT like ordering chinese food... crap. Their orders were premeditated and planned. Oh, go read a book on sociopaths. I don't give a good crap what music they listened to: their fate was sealed at an early, early age...... long before music or art could take hold... (Glam was right on that one). I don't care about "Ogilvy" and PR...Would the Marquis DeSade be any different if he listened to different music?? Hell, no. It was the life he led early on that led him to his attrocities, and so with the other two..music is an auditory display of emotion that we are attracted to for the emotions that it sympathizes with...not the other way around.
Thank you, BellaDonna! (And thanks to Hywel too.)
It is so nice to have a voice of reason around here. I cannot believe that I am being attacked just because I said that one of the most evil people, Hitler, was a murderer. Of course I think people who actually do the killings are guilty of murder too. I never said otherwise. All I was saying was that *both* the person who did the killing and the person who commanded the killing are *both* guilty.
BellaDonna, it's nice to have someone who understood what I was saying and you probably explained it better than I did. You seem to understand my original point, that art and music cannot be blamed for evil in the world. That's all I was ever trying to say.
I'm sorry that I use words literally, but it really helps to explain things. Assumptions and made-up definitions don't hold well in debates, though.
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Post by Ain't Talkin' Bout' Love » Thu Sep 04, 2008 1:38 am

Yeah it really has nothing to do with the entertainer. Ozzy and Judas Priest both went through it, and there are a million Alice songs that could be taken way too literally and turned into a nightmare, but it would have nothing to do with Alice. His music, as with the other two aforementioned, reminds us what's out there, but in no way endorses it. Alice Cooper is the archetype of humanity, he can kill someone, he can love someone, he can save someone, or he can watch them die with a smile on his face. They're all realities, but if somebody misconstrues it as a message or piece of advice, that's their cross to bear, and their own fault, not that of the artist in question.

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Post by SKULLBOY » Thu Sep 04, 2008 2:19 am

Ain't Talkin' Bout' Love wrote:Yeah it really has nothing to do with the entertainer. Ozzy and Judas Priest both went through it, and there are a million Alice songs that could be taken way too literally and turned into a nightmare, but it would have nothing to do with Alice. His music, as with the other two aforementioned, reminds us what's out there, but in no way endorses it. Alice Cooper is the archetype of humanity, he can kill someone, he can love someone, he can save someone, or he can watch them die with a smile on his face. They're all realities, but if somebody misconstrues it as a message or piece of advice, that's their cross to bear, and their own fault, not that of the artist in question.
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Post by blackwidow2008 » Sun Sep 07, 2008 3:35 pm

Shoesalesman wrote:The instability lies in the individual, not the entertainment industry as far as I'm concerned.
I absolutely agree 100% with that. Well said!

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Post by pitkin88 » Sun Sep 07, 2008 3:53 pm

Having your heads cut off or electrocuted every night for 40 something yrs will undoubtibly have a negative affect on some in the audience. I thinks some kid hanged himself after watching an Alice show years ago. Is Alice. Hitler or marilyn Mnason to blame only god knows I guess. Alice feels some guilt to the church but about sex not violence or sex and violence whatever the case might be. Just mHO.

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Post by Gorehound » Sun Sep 07, 2008 5:42 pm

pitkin88 wrote:Having your heads cut off or electrocuted every night for 40 something yrs will undoubtibly have a negative affect on some in the audience.
Why?! The audience know it's not real. If you're insinuating it gives people the idea to commit suicide like the kid who hanged himself, I seriously doubt it. Plenty of people are driven to suicide for a variety of reasons, why would watching Alice getting hung or electrocuted or beheaded make any difference? If they're gonna commit suicide then they will, they don't need Alice to do it. I know, I've been there and that was long before I was an Alice fan. For all we know the kid who hanged himself suffered from a deep state of depression or summat, maybe the way in which he did it was because of Alice but Alice can't be blamed for his death, he could just have easily slit his wrists or overdosed or whatever. I don't see how Alice's execution would have 'a negative affect on some in the audience'.
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Post by SKULLBOY » Sun Sep 07, 2008 8:00 pm

Why?! The audience know it's not real. If you're insinuating it gives people the idea to commit suicide like the kid who hanged himself, I seriously doubt it. Plenty of people are driven to suicide for a variety of reasons, why would watching Alice getting hung or electrocuted or beheaded make any difference? If they're gonna commit suicide then they will, they don't need Alice to do it. I know, I've been there and that was long before I was an Alice fan. For all we know the kid who hanged himself suffered from a deep state of depression or summat, maybe the way in which he did it was because of Alice but Alice can't be blamed for his death, he could just have easily slit his wrists or overdosed or whatever. I don't see how Alice's execution would have 'a negative affect on some in the audience'.
That's exactly what I've been trying to point out. You make your own choices. In this instance, I highly doubt that this individual was having--in their opinion--a perfect life, then saw Alice hang himself and thought to themself, "Man, life sucks and I want to die." They were probably depressed already and this was only a coincidence.

Think of things in a statistical way: There are x number of suicides per year, there are also y number of current Alice Cooper (or pick your musician or art) fans, so wouldn't it be likely that there are z number of Alice Cooper fans who commit suicide?
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Post by DaveJay » Mon Sep 08, 2008 12:14 pm

In Response to Hywels comment a few pages back ( Sorry, I can't get this "Thread" to "Quote"...)
I don't know what the game was called, but it was @ 1999 released, and the "Game" involved rescuing "Hostages" from some sort of Terrorist Hide-out....
(I used to watch Horrified, and unable to stop the child from playing the game ...It wasn't my home, my child, or my TV...) as the 3 yr old child took careful aim at the "Hostages" ( who were depicted kneeling, Blind-folded, and helpless...) and then proceeded to Shoot them in the head. . In oh so glorious Blood and Brain-spattered Technicolour... I thought the point of this "Game was to rescue the "Hostages"!!
the 3 yr old child just "Shot" everything that moved on the screen....
He even tried to point his "Toy gun" at the cops who attended the "Burglary" attempt( as I think I have mentioned...)I had to "Disarm" him, and try to let him know that "They" were the Nice-guys........as "Lennon" once wrote...."Strange days indeed" .....and it's getting worse.....
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Post by SKULLBOY » Mon Sep 08, 2008 11:44 pm

DaveJay wrote:In Response to Hywels comment a few pages back ( Sorry, I can't get this "Thread" to "Quote"...)
I don't know what the game was called, but it was @ 1999 released, and the "Game" involved rescuing "Hostages" from some sort of Terrorist Hide-out....
(I used to watch Horrified, and unable to stop the child from playing the game ...It wasn't my home, my child, or my TV...) as the 3 yr old child took careful aim at the "Hostages" ( who were depicted kneeling, Blind-folded, and helpless...) and then proceeded to Shoot them in the head. . In oh so glorious Blood and Brain-spattered Technicolour... I thought the point of this "Game was to rescue the "Hostages"!!
the 3 yr old child just "Shot" everything that moved on the screen....
He even tried to point his "Toy gun" at the cops who attended the "Burglary" attempt( as I think I have mentioned...)I had to "Disarm" him, and try to let him know that "They" were the Nice-guys........as "Lennon" once wrote...."Strange days indeed" .....and it's getting worse.....
But in a sense, isn't it better to let people do this as fantasy, or pretend, as opposed to doing it for real?
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Post by Gorehound » Tue Sep 09, 2008 9:37 am

Good point Skully. Maybe some people can satisfy their violent fantasies through 'pretend' and it actually reduces violence in some way because they then don't have to do it in reality.

When I'm pissed off I always find blowing vampires brains out on Vampire Night is a good way to let off some steam :p
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Post by DaveJay » Tue Sep 09, 2008 10:48 am

I can totally agree with the "Letting off steam" angle....but this was just a 3 year old boy, with a VERY vicious Temper.....I would never dream of telling anybody how to raise their children...but this to me seemed Wrong. At that age he should have been watching childrens TV...not playing Adult explicitly Violent games.
Slightly off topic....The childs Mother would turn the TV programme "Porridge" off when it was on TV, as the "Inmates" in the programme had Glamour "Pin-ups" on their cell walls...Nudity was "Not allowed", but Mind-blowing Violence was acceptable to her children...Hmmmm....
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Post by RemarkablyInsincere » Tue Sep 09, 2008 5:08 pm

SKULLBOY wrote: But in a sense, isn't it better to let people do this as fantasy, or pretend, as opposed to doing it for real?
I would say 3 years old is *way* too young to be able to differentiate between fantasy and reality.

As the father of a 3 year old myself, I can only imagine what problems this child will have down the line with continued exposure to such over the top violence.
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Post by RemarkablyInsincere » Tue Sep 09, 2008 5:09 pm

Gorehound wrote:Good point Skully. Maybe some people can satisfy their violent fantasies through 'pretend' and it actually reduces violence in some way because they then don't have to do it in reality.

When I'm pissed off I always find blowing vampires brains out on Vampire Night is a good way to let off some steam :p
Yes, but you're not 3 years old... a child's mind is still developing.
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Post by Shoesalesman » Tue Sep 09, 2008 6:20 pm

Not really picking a side here... but as a general rule, we don't have toy guns in our house. I have young kids too, and although it's not strictly enforced, we've never been asked by them to buy gun-related toys so why would we go out of our way to buy some? We have the original nintendo and the kids play Bubble Bobble and such, but only for a limited time. We're not big video game/TV watchers. haha.
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Post by Gorehound » Tue Sep 09, 2008 7:36 pm

RemarkablyInsincere wrote:
Gorehound wrote:Good point Skully. Maybe some people can satisfy their violent fantasies through 'pretend' and it actually reduces violence in some way because they then don't have to do it in reality.

When I'm pissed off I always find blowing vampires brains out on Vampire Night is a good way to let off some steam :p
Yes, but you're not 3 years old... a child's mind is still developing.
Right, but I just meant in general, not specifically aimed at 3 year old's. Though it could be argued that because kids learn by example, even some cartoons could be considered violent in a sense. I grew up on Warner Bro's cartoons and those are violent in a sense. It might not be graphic but it's still there. The way Wyle. E. Coyote is always trying to blow up Road Runner and such, what if kids decide it's ok to do similar things to animals? I heard after Finding Nemo came out some kids thought they should flush their fish down the loo cos it was setting em free when in fact it just kills the fish. So I still maintain that it's not the video games etc. to blame because if parents teach their kids the difference between fantasy and reality then they should know what's right and what's wrong. Unless there are other problems and violence is in their nature and they grow up to be that way. I also grew up on nature programs as I've always loved the animal world, particularly big carnivores. I would imitate animal behaviour seen on tv. Now if I'd tried to hunt down another kid in the same manner as a lion hunting down an antelope would people have blamed the nature programs? Cos when I was really young my parents would get frustrated that I would often act more animal than human, and I saw carnivores ripping apart their prey on tv and incorporated this into some of the games I played with my mates. But I never tried to do it for real, I knew it was all pretend. I had a Master System when I was about 5 and the game I remember most is Sonic The Hedgehog. Could it not be argued that that is violent in a sense because as Sonic you have to kill the bad guys? Ok it's nowhere near as extreme as games such as GTA but my point is when kids so young copy what they see then if video games really are to blame wouldn't kids be going around trying to kill the bad guys? Bad guys that in the real world could be other kids that pick on them for example? I agree the 3 year old shouldn't have been playing something like GTA and the 18 certificate is there for a reason but I still don't think the video game itself is to blame.
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Post by RemarkablyInsincere » Tue Sep 09, 2008 8:38 pm

Gorehound wrote: Right, but I just meant in general, not specifically aimed at 3 year old's. Though it could be argued that because kids learn by example, even some cartoons could be considered violent in a sense. I grew up on Warner Bro's cartoons and those are violent in a sense. It might not be graphic but it's still there. The way Wyle. E. Coyote is always trying to blow up Road Runner and such, what if kids decide it's ok to do similar things to animals? I heard after Finding Nemo came out some kids thought they should flush their fish down the loo cos it was setting em free when in fact it just kills the fish.
All true... but there are light years of difference between Wyle E Coyote and the sort of violence common in some video games these days... specifically the type being described in this thread.

That said, my daughter doesn't watch those old cartoons ... and if we stumble across them on the cartoon network, I keep going. Not because they're so bad per say, but more because it's so different than what she's seen and I think it's more appropriate when she's older. Similarly, I would never let her watch "Family Guy" either (although I find it quite funny).

As parents we are supposed to teach and guide our children... and part of that is deciding what's appropriate, and healthy, for them and when. I shudder to think what the longterm impact is to a 3 year old that's become accustomed to shooting people in the head and watching their brains explode out. ::((:
Gorehound wrote: I agree the 3 year old shouldn't have been playing something like GTA and the 18 certificate is there for a reason but I still don't think the video game itself is to blame.
I don't think it's helping, which I believe was your original "stress relieving" premise. On top of that, it's virtually impossible to arrive at a definitive cause and effect relationship conclusion with these sorts of things. Common sense should prevail.

Regardless, whether you believe this or not, I'd say it's better to err on the side of caution in these sorts of instances if you're a responsible parent.
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Post by HORRORHOLIC » Tue Sep 09, 2008 9:58 pm

I haven't read all of this but I'm gonna give my personal opinion. Yes of course there are Alice songs that could be used as an excuse, lots of them actually
! but the thing is if someone is crazy and is gonna get messages and hear things from songs then they are more then likely gonna hear it regardless of who it's from. Trust me, if they are getting a message from Alice Cooper they would be getting the same message from whoever else they were listening to at the time. If they can't understand music is entertainment then obviously it's not the musicians fault and they have issues that have nothing to do with the art any blammed musicain has or will make in the future. Alice Cooper, Marilyn Manson, Ozzy Osbourne, Madonna etc... all performers who have raised eyebrows and will continue to do so, people should be able to see the difference from any of them or any other musician and if not then the problem isn't with the music but the individual
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Post by pitkin88 » Wed Sep 10, 2008 12:22 am

There are even sublime images in kids shows that could disturb children. Teletubbies features isolation which begats lonliness on a child's growing mind.
Barney equates extinction and not returning. It's all there. Everything has an influence even on adults. Lesbianism was taboo once but now we have shows like Tila Tequila on MTV and know it's ok for women to do that. Alice couldn't have written Only Women Bleed today that's for sure.

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Post by SKULLBOY » Wed Sep 10, 2008 1:30 am

RemarkablyInsincere wrote:
SKULLBOY wrote: But in a sense, isn't it better to let people do this as fantasy, or pretend, as opposed to doing it for real?
I would say 3 years old is *way* too young to be able to differentiate between fantasy and reality.

As the father of a 3 year old myself, I can only imagine what problems this child will have down the line with continued exposure to such over the top violence.
I have three kids (10, 7, and 6) and my children know the difference between fantasy and reality. I've always taught them the difference. We watch "adult oriented" movies together, but if I really want to scare the hell out of them I turn on a news channel and let them see what real life is like. Fiction will never outweigh the horrors of real life. If a child doesn't know the difference between fantasy and reality, then who really is to blame? Is it the games that they play, the shows they watch, etc., or is it the teacher?

I tend to have my kids shy away from video games, but not because of the violence, but because I've seen how lazy people can get from playing them. I feel that it is a mind-numbing past-time and that people tend to ignore the real world when they get too involved.
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Post by BellaDonna » Fri Sep 12, 2008 4:17 am

No Problem, Glam: I heard what you were saying! :)

I think HorrorHolic said something that rang true in my past experiences with people and the horrors they commit: "....could be used as an excuse".

There are things that people see and experience that can be used to 'excuse' an action. But it's not a 'reason' to do it.

Reason is 'free choice': 'excuse' is a cop out.

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