Could Alice ever be blamed for violence or murder?

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hywel
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Post by hywel » Sun Aug 31, 2008 3:04 pm

I've been playing the new GTA game now for the past 3 months solid and yeah it is really realistic but it hasn't given me the slightest notion to go out and steal a car and a load of guns and kill as many people as I can. Nor has it affected any of my mates in any such way, or my mate's younger brother who we found playing on the game after we'd paused it to go get some food (his parents were out or they'd have put a stop to it). Exactly how much younger his brother is I dunno without asking him.[/quote] a very good post.

i have been working in a secure unit for young offenders and children with severe emotional problems for ten years. and as i said in my previous post, not all kids go nuts on them. i totally agree that it is environment and lack of positive conditioning by parents, also attachment is a major role player here. there is no attachment at home so they get it wherever they can, sometimes with the wrong crowd. and yes most of the very violent kids i have worked with come from violent backgrounds including kids who have moved here from countries where they have witnessed things that we cant even begin to imagine. the point i am trying to make is that some, not all kids are easily influenced by stimulating realistic video games and other factors. heres a good example of how some of the youngsters that i work with have been influenced by others. i have worked with many and i mean many white kids who think they are gangstas and speak as if they are jamaican. really, these kids talk like this 24-7.all they talk about is guns, protection and their patch. very few kids are born with these tendancies, behaviour is learned and it all starts at home.
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Post by Former Lee Warmer » Sun Aug 31, 2008 4:31 pm

Yes my wife says that I love Alice more then her....and she is ready to kill me cause of this love I have for him!...so if I'm found dead blame her!
Chris

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Post by hywel » Sun Aug 31, 2008 5:27 pm

Former Lee Warmer wrote:Yes my wife says that I love Alice more then her....and she is ready to kill me cause of this love I have for him!...so if I'm found dead blame her!


ha ha, good one.
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Post by SKULLBOY » Mon Sep 01, 2008 4:28 am

Art imitates life.

There are a certain percentage of people that kill, and with today's population being around six billion, that certain percentage is a larger number. Statistically, there will be a certain number of people that listen to certain types of music (movies, games, etc.). But, there are a certain number of people who kill who don't listen to these certain types of music (movies, games, etc.). I'm tired of all of this profiling that goes on today. It is all just a form of prejudice. If people would take more time trying to understand those that do kill (or commit whatever crimes) and less time trying to point out those that fit a certain profile, we would probably be closer to resolving certain issues.

This profiling doesn't just cause problems with violent crimes, it is out of control now everywhere.

As for those that believe that ordering people to be killed makes the person giving the orders a murderer, does that mean that when I go to a restaurant and order a meal that I am the chef? If people are ordered to kill, then they follow the order, they are doing it of their own free will. A person is not a clockwork orange.
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Post by glamprincess » Mon Sep 01, 2008 7:02 am

SKULLBOY wrote:
As for those that believe that ordering people to be killed makes the person giving the orders a murderer, does that mean that when I go to a restaurant and order a meal that I am the chef? If people are ordered to kill, then they follow the order, they are doing it of their own free will. A person is not a clockwork orange.
Really? Try hiring a hit man to kill someone or get someone else to commit murder and don't be shocked when you end up convicted and in prison because that's the law. The law didn't feel that John Gotti or Charles Manson were just ordering Chinese food.
And how someone can argue that when Hitler committed the genocide of millions of people that it was not murder, but just like ordering dinner off a menu, well that's just so unbelievable, that it's scary.

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Post by mattcoddington » Mon Sep 01, 2008 2:45 pm

i'm going to leave this alone because we're way off topic here. and i don't want to make anyone cry with my vast knowledge of hitler lore.

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Re: Could Alice ever be blamed for violence or murder?

Post by Maurice » Mon Sep 01, 2008 4:14 pm

GailsFriend wrote:
What if a kid tried to become the Spider? Could Alice be blamed, because of the lyrics? .
I have just picked this one line out, because I think others here have ably covered the 'blameworthy' stance very well indeed.

All I would add to the mix is that - I *suspect* (but could not possibly know), that this story was written by Alice to be so extreme, that it exceeded the boundaries of even some of the most gruesome murders that have been reported. So much so, that it borders on being 'extremely ridiculous'; and there - as they say - is the humour, very black humour, but far too extreme (we would hope!) for anyone, but a real committed butcher/killer to contemplate.

So, in the event of such an awful, and truly atrocious act taking place, I would doubt that Alice could be held to 'blame' on the strength of a cd lyric being the 'inspiration'.


Edit: Having just re-read this it sounds 'over-simplified' which was not my intention at all, apologies if you don't quite 'get it', that will be down to my poor education! :grin:
Last edited by Maurice on Mon Sep 01, 2008 4:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Guilty » Mon Sep 01, 2008 4:21 pm

no, anyone of normal intelagence would see it for what it is. anyone else, cheese -cracker.
you know how it feels when we go to his concerts, its a party like being around friends and family.
the only violence i feel is how much the venues charge for beer and hot dogs.
i'm guilty an i think i've been framed anyway

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Post by Shoesalesman » Mon Sep 01, 2008 5:06 pm

It's close to seven/eight dollars for a bloody beer at a hockey game or concert these days!!! Almost worth hooping a flask of hootch prior to getting frisked by security. Almost.
Last edited by Shoesalesman on Mon Sep 01, 2008 5:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by SKULLBOY » Mon Sep 01, 2008 5:11 pm

glamprincess wrote:
SKULLBOY wrote:
As for those that believe that ordering people to be killed makes the person giving the orders a murderer, does that mean that when I go to a restaurant and order a meal that I am the chef? If people are ordered to kill, then they follow the order, they are doing it of their own free will. A person is not a clockwork orange.
Really? Try hiring a hit man to kill someone or get someone else to commit murder and don't be shocked when you end up convicted and in prison because that's the law. The law didn't feel that John Gotti or Charles Manson were just ordering Chinese food.
And how someone can argue that when Hitler committed the genocide of millions of people that it was not murder, but just like ordering dinner off a menu, well that's just so unbelievable, that it's scary.
Hitler, Manson, take your pick didn't actually commit murder. If someone told you to kill someone, and you did, who's the murderer? A murderer is "a person who commits murder". Murder is (I picked this one, they're all about the same) "The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice". If someone asks you, orders you, begs you, et cetera, to kill someone it is your choice to follow through. Personally, I would choose not to, as I am stubborn and usually don't do what I'm told.
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Post by Guilty » Mon Sep 01, 2008 6:48 pm

shoesalesman, that's bad, i don't know what the exchange rate is between canada and the uk at the moment but our beer at an alice concert is £3.00 for a 300ml bottle .
its not worth smuggling it in, as they frisk you like they are saving for a Xmas works party.
i'm guilty an i think i've been framed anyway

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Post by hywel » Mon Sep 01, 2008 7:22 pm

SKULLBOY wrote:
glamprincess wrote:
SKULLBOY wrote:
As for those that believe that ordering people to be killed makes the person giving the orders a murderer, does that mean that when I go to a restaurant and order a meal that I am the chef? If people are ordered to kill, then they follow the order, they are doing it of their own free will. A person is not a clockwork orange.
Really? Try hiring a hit man to kill someone or get someone else to commit murder and don't be shocked when you end up convicted and in prison because that's the law. The law didn't feel that John Gotti or Charles Manson were just ordering Chinese food.
And how someone can argue that when Hitler committed the genocide of millions of people that it was not murder, but just like ordering dinner off a menu, well that's just so unbelievable, that it's scary.
Hitler, Manson, take your pick didn't actually commit murder. If someone told you to kill someone, and you did, who's the murderer? A murderer is "a person who commits murder". Murder is (I picked this one, they're all about the same) "The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice". If someone asks you, orders you, begs you, et cetera, to kill someone it is your choice to follow through. Personally, I would choose not to, as I am stubborn and usually don't do what I'm told.
to brainwash as hitler did or to brainwash and manipulate others as manson did is an offence. remember we are talking about people , even masses of people who will believe in what they are told and carry out the crime. and if you want to check it out a mass murderer is someone who kills many in one go. you may not use a gun but you can facilitate it through others.
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Post by SKULLBOY » Tue Sep 02, 2008 12:09 am

Really? Try hiring a hit man to kill someone or get someone else to commit murder and don't be shocked when you end up convicted and in prison because that's the law. The law didn't feel that John Gotti or Charles Manson were just ordering Chinese food.
And how someone can argue that when Hitler committed the genocide of millions of people that it was not murder, but just like ordering dinner off a menu, well that's just so unbelievable, that it's scary.
Being convicted of ordering a murder and getting commited for actually murdering someone are two different things.

I never said these individuals were ordering chinese food. I am only speaking of definition. I never said they ordered food, I was merely pointing out that saying and doing are not the same thing.

As for Hitler, he never commited genocide, he ordered it.

As for any of these people, didn't the people who actually killed also get punished? Should they go free because they were only acting on orders? Should David Berkowitz's neighborr's dog have been convicted since he claimed that the dog told him to? Are you saying you would commit murder just because you were told?

Personally, I'd rather have it that people acted on choice.
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Post by Shoesalesman » Tue Sep 02, 2008 12:20 am

Guilty wrote:shoesalesman, that's bad, i don't know what the exchange rate is between canada and the uk at the moment but our beer at an alice concert is £3.00 for a 300ml bottle .
its not worth smuggling it in, as they frisk you like they are saving for a Xmas works party.
That actually sounds close to the exchange rate. I never get booze or food at a show; in my yout (yes, if you've seen My Cousin Vinny, you'll know what a "yout" is, haha) I'd slam a sixer in the parking lot and inhale a sub sandwich before a show. Now I'm lucky if I'll have one beer before a show if I'm taking the bus/cab. None if I'm driving.
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Post by mattcoddington » Tue Sep 02, 2008 12:35 am

what's a yout?

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Post by SKULLBOY » Tue Sep 02, 2008 2:54 am

"I'm sorry, Your Honor: You-u-u-u-th-th-th-tt-ht-hs."
"I was scared to death, afraid to close my eyes
And find that I was gone . . . "

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Post by BellaDonna » Tue Sep 02, 2008 4:52 am

Wow. This is powerful.

My opinion: Alice states a FICTIONAL story about FICITONAL characters who 'do what they do'. In this instance: "Art Imitates Life." He DOES NOT command life. For cripes sakes peeps: google serial killers - THERE already IS a 'spider' in the desert. Art imitating Life.

Hitler and Manson set OUT TO COMMAND - to exterminate. Commanding death is NOT like ordering chinese food... crap. Their orders were premeditated and planned. Oh, go read a book on sociopaths. I don't give a good crap what music they listened to: their fate was sealed at an early, early age...... long before music or art could take hold... (Glam was right on that one). I don't care about "Ogilvy" and PR...Would the Marquis DeSade be any different if he listened to different music?? Hell, no. It was the life he led early on that led him to his attrocities, and so with the other two..music is an auditory display of emotion that we are attracted to for the emotions that it sympathizes with...not the other way around.

And video games? Yeah: the violent ones teach the WRONG THING. But who lets little ones play them anyway? It's not the games. Little ones shouldn't be playing them.

I've heard SO MUCH bs lately about, "he has to be like everyone else! He has to look like everyone else! He has to 'fit in'!" (Jaded: perhaps you'll catch that...)...if 'fitting in' means being hurtful: then it's not ok. And "ok" begins 'at home"....

Alice just imitates 'life'...he depicts the horrors of every day life and shows it for what it is...so it can be learned from. If he didn't have the cohones to, then who would??

BD
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Post by moonshadow » Tue Sep 02, 2008 6:55 am

Well said BD.
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Post by glamprincess » Tue Sep 02, 2008 9:49 am

BellaDonna wrote: Hitler and Manson set OUT TO COMMAND - to exterminate. Commanding death is NOT like ordering chinese food... crap. Their orders were premeditated and planned. Oh, go read a book on sociopaths. I don't give a good crap what music they listened to: their fate was sealed at an early, early age...... long before music or art could take hold... (Glam was right on that one). I don't care about "Ogilvy" and PR...Would the Marquis DeSade be any different if he listened to different music?? Hell, no. It was the life he led early on that led him to his attrocities, and so with the other two..music is an auditory display of emotion that we are attracted to for the emotions that it sympathizes with...not the other way around.
Thank you, BellaDonna! (And thanks to Hywel too.)
It is so nice to have a voice of reason around here. I cannot believe that I am being attacked just because I said that one of the most evil people, Hitler, was a murderer. Of course I think people who actually do the killings are guilty of murder too. I never said otherwise. All I was saying was that *both* the person who did the killing and the person who commanded the killing are *both* guilty.
BellaDonna, it's nice to have someone who understood what I was saying and you probably explained it better than I did. You seem to understand my original point, that art and music cannot be blamed for evil in the world. That's all I was ever trying to say.

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Post by Shoesalesman » Tue Sep 02, 2008 2:44 pm

SKULLBOY wrote:"I'm sorry, Your Honor: You-u-u-u-th-th-th-tt-ht-hs."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1V-4boT_ts
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