Could Alice ever be blamed for violence or murder?

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Could Alice ever be blamed for violence or murder?

Post by GailsFriend » Sat Aug 30, 2008 5:49 pm

I was just reading Blabbermouth.net and they were talking about how a 25 year old lured a 21 year old to his death after listening to a Slipknot song....the kid got 50 years to life.

But, I have to say, Alice has had some songs with violent imagery in it....not that I object. But, kids today seem unable to handle their issues without killing someone after listening to music with such suggestions.

What if a kid tried to become the Spider? Could Alice be blamed, because of the lyrics? I know there is no comparison between Slipknot and Alice, but we are talking about unstable kids today....
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Post by Gorehound » Sat Aug 30, 2008 6:01 pm

Media affecting kids in that way is total rubbish, of all the millions of kids who listen to Slipknot ONE turned violent. How do we know they weren't already prone to violence and aggression? Some people are just that way inclined, you can't blame it on music, horror movies, horror stories, etc. No doubt many factors are involved and of course there is the old argument of nature/nurture. Maybe it was in the 25 year old's nature and it was just something waiting to happen. Blaming violence on media is a load of crap.

People have always been violent, some more than others. Just look at humanity's long bloody history, our ancestors didn't need music and stuff to inspire them to kill.

Anyway, no doubt some idiots would try to blame it on Alice but I hate it when people do that, does it show? If you wish I'll post the indepth presentation I did for college on this very subject :p
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Post by Shoesalesman » Sat Aug 30, 2008 6:02 pm

The instability lies in the individual, not the entertainment industry as far as I'm concerned. The cheese slipped off the cracker long before a certain song or movie came along for that person. But it's easier to place blame on external factors instead of what's really going on in that person's life prior to that violent act.

All a kid has to do is turn on the news. Way worse carnage there than on ACAS.
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Post by DROP DEAD FRED » Sat Aug 30, 2008 6:33 pm

Cheese slipped off the cracker ,i like that shoesalesman,not heard it before :rotfl:

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Post by sparkinthedark » Sat Aug 30, 2008 7:36 pm

I agree with the sentiments already posted. Like Gorey, I also covered this in some depth when I was at college (which seems like forever ago now - the first GTA game had been released and there was outcry over it). I get pretty hacked off when music, video games and movies are used as scapegoats because someone with a predisposition for violence has been found to have watched or listened to something that isn't all happy fluffiness. I firmly believe that a sane person cannot be "turned" bad, violent or whatever else (desensitised, probably yes) by music, movies etc.

Alice of course makes a similar point (in my opinion) with his song "Wicked Young Man".

I don't think anyone could be influenced to commit murder having listened to ACAS. No disrespect to the album but the storyline to my mind really isn't that overt (but maybe I think this because I know what it's about and thusly don't have to wonder or interpret purely from the songs). I think if Alice was ever at risk of being used as a scapegoat, that time is long past.
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Post by Shoesalesman » Sat Aug 30, 2008 8:50 pm

Not to make fun of a serious issue, but in jest the only legitimate suit against Alice would be from a certain chicken's family. Okay, I'm done now.
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Post by Jason » Sat Aug 30, 2008 10:19 pm

It's like Alice says:

"It's not the games that I play, the movies I see, the music I dig
I'm just a wicked young man" !
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Post by glamprincess » Sat Aug 30, 2008 11:39 pm

Question: What rock group was Adolph Hitler listening to?
Answer: None!

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Post by BellaDonna » Sun Aug 31, 2008 5:04 am

I love 'the cheese slipped off the cracker'...I'm sorry...that was just brilliant!

However, I believe that in the past he was already referenced in regards to this: I'm not going to state what exactly - simply because I believe what Shoesalesman said is true...

Like it or not, I see it every day. You can go to a shopping mall and see a 'tweenie' disrespectfully yelling at it's mom - in public - regarding what clothing it will or will not wear to school. I've been shot deadly looks after hearing such verbal tweenie attacks on their elders for telling my son that if he ever acted that way he'd never see a shopping mall again - out loud. And the parents are the ones shooting the deadly looks!!!

Like it or not: it all boils down to a matter of respect. And before respect comes the fear of ones parents (I like to call it 'god'). If there is no respect: then anything/any behaviour is fair game.

Without that respect - or fear - whichever you choose to call it: a postage stamp with a picture of a bat on it is enough to lay blame to, simply because no one close to the source wants to claim responsibility. And in todays world: a world where you can stupidly spill hot coffe in your lap after STUPIDLY setting it between your legs in the car at a drive thru and then sue for MILLIONS because it was 'too hot', sue McDonald's because you gained weight...etc..etc......AND WIN MILLIONS...
blaming Alice or Slipknot for 'murder' isn't too far fetched....it is however, bogus bs...

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Post by mattcoddington » Sun Aug 31, 2008 5:23 am

glamprincess wrote:Question: What rock group was Adolph Hitler listening to?
Answer: None!
hitler never killed anyone. neither did charles manson. as crazy as they were, there is no documented evidence to prove either of them killed anyone themselves.

as far as music goes, hitler loved tchaikovsky, borodin and rachmaninov. he was very much into classical music.

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Re: Could Alice ever be blamed for violence or murder?

Post by Petri » Sun Aug 31, 2008 7:32 am

GailsFriend wrote:What if a kid tried to become the Spider? Could Alice be blamed, because of the lyrics? I know there is no comparison between Slipknot and Alice, but we are talking about unstable kids today....
If lyrics about a fictional killer can be seen as an impulse to a real-life killing, then wouldn't that be the same thing with books and movies about killers? Of course, if the blame for these kind of cases needs to be layed on somebody/something, it's quite often on a rocker/rock music.
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Post by Nick » Sun Aug 31, 2008 8:12 am

Gorehound wrote:
Anyway, no doubt some idiots would try to blame it on Alice but I hate it when people do that, does it show? If you wish I'll post the indepth presentation I did for college on this very subject :p
I wouldn't mind reading that.

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Post by glamprincess » Sun Aug 31, 2008 8:22 am

mattcoddington wrote:
glamprincess wrote:Question: What rock group was Adolph Hitler listening to?
Answer: None!
hitler never killed anyone. neither did charles manson. as crazy as they were, there is no documented evidence to prove either of them killed anyone themselves.
as far as music goes, hitler loved tchaikovsky, borodin and rachmaninov. he was very much into classical music.
The point I was making is that evil existed before rock music ever did. And it will always continue to exist whether there is rock music or not.

And I consider someone a murderer if he orders other people to kill.

I thought Gorehound's and ShoeSalesman's posts on this subject were both excellent.

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Re: Could Alice ever be blamed for violence or murder?

Post by steven_crayn » Sun Aug 31, 2008 9:55 am

GailsFriend wrote:I was just reading Blabbermouth.net and they were talking about how a 25 year old lured a 21 year old to his death after listening to a Slipknot song....the kid got 50 years to life.

But, I have to say, Alice has had some songs with violent imagery in it....not that I object. But, kids today seem unable to handle their issues without killing someone after listening to music with such suggestions.

What if a kid tried to become the Spider? Could Alice be blamed, because of the lyrics? I know there is no comparison between Slipknot and Alice, but we are talking about unstable kids today....
Personally I think anyone blaming Alice or any other rockstar for the killing of someone or themselves because of a song lyric or stage persona is an idiot.

As Kane Roberts once said in guitarist magazine "you can't blame some inadvertent catalyst ".
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Post by steven_crayn » Sun Aug 31, 2008 10:15 am

mattcoddington wrote:
hitler never killed anyone. neither did charles manson. as crazy as they were, there is no documented evidence to prove either of them killed anyone themselves.

as far as music goes, hitler loved tchaikovsky, borodin and rachmaninov. he was very much into classical music.
His favourite listen though was German nationalist composer Wilhelm Richard Wagner whose music was often performed at Nazi party rallies and functions.
Wagner was said to be an anti semite who had attacked Jewish composer Mendelssohn in his essay Judaism in Music.

He wrote some great tunes, but his music could hardly be blamed for Hitlers atrocites just as rock music cant be blamed for what it has been accused of.
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Post by DaveJay » Sun Aug 31, 2008 10:59 am

..I think the amount of "Violent"video games being played by under-aged kids has a LOT to do with the oh so many stabbing Murders happening in the UK ( and elsewhere)
I know from experience that these games influence young minds ( a "Friend used to let his 3 yr old son play them, and, one day the police called to his house to investigate a burglary, and the 3 yr old picked up a Toy pistol, and repeatedly pretended to shoot the policemen, as they were talking to the parents....the kid used to also try to beat his father as hard as he could ( only little hands....but KING sizerd HATRED) when his dad wanted to turn off the video games...the parents didn't see how wrong their attitude was..I was disgusted.
( The kids older brother also played these games, and was regularly being arrested for "Arson" attempts on houses....and the parents STILL encouraged him to collect cigarette lighters as a hobby!!).

As Alice himself once said, when a suicide was found hanging in the 1970's, with one of his concert tickets (allegedly) clutched in their hand...
"If they had that in mind, they were gonna probably do it anyway...they could have went to see "A Clockwork Orange" and jumped from a window".
Parental control is to blame.
Drugs are to blame.
Ease of access to weapons is to Blame.
Music is innocent.
(..I don't think the original "Jack the Ripper" ever did see "Silence of the Lambs." ..or hear ACAS....).
That's my li'l opinion anyway!
sorry for ramblin'.
Interesting topic, Gailsfriend!!
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Post by hywel » Sun Aug 31, 2008 12:07 pm

[quote="DaveJay"]..I think the amount of "Violent"video games being played by under-aged kids has a LOT to do with the oh so many stabbing Murders happening in the UK ( and elsewhere)
I know from experience that these games influence young minds ( a "Friend used to let his 3 yr old son play them, and, one day the police called to his house to investigate a burglary, and the 3 yr old picked up a Toy pistol, and repeatedly pretended to shoot the policemen, as they were talking to the parents....the kid used to also try to beat his father as hard as he could ( only little hands....but KING sizerd HATRED) when his dad wanted to turn off the video games...the parents didn't see how wrong their attitude was..I was disgusted.
( The kids older brother also played these games, and was regularly being arrested for "Arson" attempts on houses....and the parents STILL encouraged him to collect cigarette lighters as a hobby!!).


changing this a little, i cant believe any parent letting kids of an early age play these violent games let alone the interactive ones. dont get me wrong, i am not saying every kid who plays one is going to go nuts, but children, especialy boys up to age seven are very easily influenced. these games imo are crazy, kids are having fun by play killing on screens etc. and the newer the game the more realistic they become. over the past two years, i have worked with three kids all who have extreme social phobia, one boy hadnt left the house for almost two years. what connects these three kids is that the parents were quite happy to let them stay up all night on their computers playing games of mindless violence. so maybe it isnt the game industry or the film industry, or the music industry thats to blame. it is bad parenting, some things are not good for children at such an important time in their lives where their cognitions (thinking with reason) havent fully developed. look at the kids on the streets today and ask yourself why?
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Post by Gorehound » Sun Aug 31, 2008 1:17 pm

Nick wrote:
Gorehound wrote:
Anyway, no doubt some idiots would try to blame it on Alice but I hate it when people do that, does it show? If you wish I'll post the indepth presentation I did for college on this very subject :p
I wouldn't mind reading that.
I was gonna say if you really want to pm me but it seems I've deleted the file now to save room on me hard drive lol. Damn, it was a good presentation too if I do say so myself. I managed to slip in 3 slides just on Alice. And as Sparky pointed out Alice touches on this in Wicked Young Man so I had it playing in the background haha.
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Post by RemarkablyInsincere » Sun Aug 31, 2008 2:30 pm

Alice has already pleaded guilty to mass mental cruelty.
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Post by Gorehound » Sun Aug 31, 2008 2:45 pm

With regards to the posts about video games, I still don't think video games can be blamed for violent behaviour in kids. Boys in particular, but haven't kids always played games where they pretend to kill? I know I had plenty of toy guns and swords as a kid and me and me mates would pretend to be soldiers or warriors or cops, typical boys games. I was never allowed to play on violent video games till later years but I've always had a pretty bloodthirsty imagination. Ok the reaction of the 3 year old in Davejay's post seems a bit extreme, though pretending to shoot a cop is something a lot of kids might do. As long as they are taught the difference between right and wrong why should video games have a detrimental effect on them? I stand by what I said in my first post that it depends on the individual (regardless of the age) but I guess what most people would call 'normal' kids would understand the difference between right and wrong as long as their parents teach it. A lot of violent kids come from violent familes and going back to nature/nurture, it's their upbringing that makes them that way, not exposure to video games. For the aforementioned presentation I researched the James Bulger case (which somebody blamed on the Child's Play films cos number 3 was found in the homes of one of the boys, though it was never proven whether they actually watched it or not) and one of the boys, forget which one, came from a rough family. He'd been raped and abused by his older brothers if I remember rightly so is there any wonder he carried out similar acts on the 2 year old. I won't deny that kids are getting worse and no longer respect their parents but as has been said I think this is down to bad parenting. But as for the increase of knife crimes or stabbing murders or whatever I strongly disagree that video games and other media are to blame. You have to remember the ever increasing population means more murders because there are more of us. More violent kids which will affect other kids around them, especially kids in who's nature it is to be easily led into stuff, including things they wouldn't ordinarily do like murder. Hence more murders.

I've been playing the new GTA game now for the past 3 months solid and yeah it is really realistic but it hasn't given me the slightest notion to go out and steal a car and a load of guns and kill as many people as I can. Nor has it affected any of my mates in any such way, or my mate's younger brother who we found playing on the game after we'd paused it to go get some food (his parents were out or they'd have put a stop to it). Exactly how much younger his brother is I dunno without asking him.
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