I think fans of heavier music would probably prefer Brutal Planet. The songs are consistently heavy, but perhaps that is why I like Dragontown better. It isn't quite as heavy and there is that eastern sound to it.
Don't get me wrong, the two albums are almost equal in my book, but if I had to pick one, it would be Dragontown. I think all of the songs on Brutal Planet are good, but there are many I could do without. The two-shot of "Pessi-Mystic" and "Gimme" are the weakest spots on the album.
Dragontown has a more compelling story and every song fits that theme one way or another. There is great vocal variety on Alice's part as well. His voice sounds mostly the same on BP. On DT, he uses a different sound on the title track than on "Every Woman...", which is also different from "It's Much Too Late".
A couple of the tracks here DO feel like leftovers from BP though. The sound of "I just Wanna be God" fits right in on BP, though the lyrics suit DT wonderfully. Triggerman & Deeper also could have been on BP. The more I analyze them, the more I appreciate BP and consider it about equal. This should have just been released as a double album. That would have cleared up any of this controversy.
Brutal Planet vs. Dragontown: Round 2
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TeresofBlood
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WickedYoungMan
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Explanation in Off-Topic section.Darren wrote:Sorry if this is obvious but where did the orignal thread go?
I voted BP. Every song on BP was virtually hit worthy. A couple of moments I don't like... compared to about 100 I do like.
DT, while not the worst, was sort of like left overs. I do enjoy "Trigger Man" and "Fantasy Man" and "Its Much Too Late" though.
Funnily enough, the last time I listened to DT, it seems like I skimmed through several of the tracks and the first 2 seconds of some of the songs had the same drum intro!
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aliceclone12
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TeresofBlood
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I think Somewhere in the Jungle is underrated. No one ever seems to mention it. It has really powerful lyrics and reminds me a lot of Black Sabbath's Hand of Doom. It goes right along with the dark theme of songs like Deeper and the title track.
Brutal Planet, but I don't think most of the songs are that memorable. They sound more like generic metal songs. DT sounds similar with a twist. That twist makes it interesting and memorable... for me, anyways.
Brutal Planet, but I don't think most of the songs are that memorable. They sound more like generic metal songs. DT sounds similar with a twist. That twist makes it interesting and memorable... for me, anyways.
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aliceclone12
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TeresofBlood
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Consider this. I'm also a big Led Zeppelin fan. Most people say that IV is their best album. It has some good songs on it, but overall it is not a very cohesive album. Their second album is one of my favorite albums by them and not one single song on it would make my top 10 Led Zep songs. Why? Because it is such a solid, cohesive rocker from beginning to end.
The inverse is also true. Black Sabbath's Vol. 4 album has some of my favorite Sabbath tunes on it (particularly Snowblind), but I think it is their second worst album because the songs have no cohesion whatsoever. Maybe this doesn't matter to most people, but what makes an album good to me is the sound of the songs as individuals, the sound of the album overall, and how the songs relate to each other.
With those factors in mind, Dragontown is far superior. But I don't expect we all judge albums the same way. Dragontown's songs may be boring or uninteresting to some, but for me, it has a cohesion that Brutal Planet lacks.
The inverse is also true. Black Sabbath's Vol. 4 album has some of my favorite Sabbath tunes on it (particularly Snowblind), but I think it is their second worst album because the songs have no cohesion whatsoever. Maybe this doesn't matter to most people, but what makes an album good to me is the sound of the songs as individuals, the sound of the album overall, and how the songs relate to each other.
With those factors in mind, Dragontown is far superior. But I don't expect we all judge albums the same way. Dragontown's songs may be boring or uninteresting to some, but for me, it has a cohesion that Brutal Planet lacks.
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aliceclone12
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ElectedPlus
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+1 for Brutal Planet from Tim.
I'm judging this more that just the songs however, but rather the timing of it's release and the look / feel of it being so natural.
It's Alice returning to the studio to record an album after 6 years. By then, I hardly knew about him - and my interest only really began to delevop at the tail end of Brutal Planet's promotion and touring. I first saw him on the last leg of this tour, and by then I had Brutal Planet and a compilation album to hold my interest at home - which was plenty enough to start with.
The look of the whole thing made the biggest impression on me - as well as the heaviness of the album. Them combined was all I needed to convince me that this was a guy to listen to - his showing signs of age and the use of stubble, together with the gothic get-up that wasn't too over the top or understated just seemed to fit him like a duck to water. Whilst most of the other bands I knew seemed to try force it, Alice didn't even need to try - he WAS it.
That's why Brutal Planet is the album I can look on as the ultimate Alice for me - rather than the classics of Welcome to my Nightmare etc. whilst I can appreciate it's brilliance, it doesn't hold the memories of me as a young teenager discovering this awesome music.
On a basic level, the sound of it appeals to me more than Dragontown too - it's consistently better from start to finish. The title track, Cold Machines, Take it like a Woman, Wicked Young Man, Sanctuary, Pick up the Bones - they're huge tracks! They work so well onstage too. (well..can't say that about Cold Machines, wish I could tho). Whilst Dragontown had good moments too, it just wasn't as consistent.
(Every Woman has a Name being a very low point for me).
After waiting around for months and getting hyped up about Dragontown (my first album I had to wait for) I actually proffered it to BP. But that was because it was new, and as time got on - I started seeing it's value of BP being higher for me than DT.
Maybe it's purely for nostalgic reasons I prefer BP over DT ... Brutally Live is one of my first memories of DVD's, when it made the jump from VHS - it was very exciting. First memories of gigs, (an awesome first gig to start with, full on theatrics, amazing stage set, costume, sound / musicians etc.).
But saying that, they're both very, very good albums and on a higher level than many other band records I've heard.
I'm judging this more that just the songs however, but rather the timing of it's release and the look / feel of it being so natural.
It's Alice returning to the studio to record an album after 6 years. By then, I hardly knew about him - and my interest only really began to delevop at the tail end of Brutal Planet's promotion and touring. I first saw him on the last leg of this tour, and by then I had Brutal Planet and a compilation album to hold my interest at home - which was plenty enough to start with.
The look of the whole thing made the biggest impression on me - as well as the heaviness of the album. Them combined was all I needed to convince me that this was a guy to listen to - his showing signs of age and the use of stubble, together with the gothic get-up that wasn't too over the top or understated just seemed to fit him like a duck to water. Whilst most of the other bands I knew seemed to try force it, Alice didn't even need to try - he WAS it.
That's why Brutal Planet is the album I can look on as the ultimate Alice for me - rather than the classics of Welcome to my Nightmare etc. whilst I can appreciate it's brilliance, it doesn't hold the memories of me as a young teenager discovering this awesome music.
On a basic level, the sound of it appeals to me more than Dragontown too - it's consistently better from start to finish. The title track, Cold Machines, Take it like a Woman, Wicked Young Man, Sanctuary, Pick up the Bones - they're huge tracks! They work so well onstage too. (well..can't say that about Cold Machines, wish I could tho). Whilst Dragontown had good moments too, it just wasn't as consistent.
(Every Woman has a Name being a very low point for me).
After waiting around for months and getting hyped up about Dragontown (my first album I had to wait for) I actually proffered it to BP. But that was because it was new, and as time got on - I started seeing it's value of BP being higher for me than DT.
Maybe it's purely for nostalgic reasons I prefer BP over DT ... Brutally Live is one of my first memories of DVD's, when it made the jump from VHS - it was very exciting. First memories of gigs, (an awesome first gig to start with, full on theatrics, amazing stage set, costume, sound / musicians etc.).
But saying that, they're both very, very good albums and on a higher level than many other band records I've heard.
[quote="ElectedPlus"]+1 for Brutal Planet from Tim.
I'm judging this more that just the songs however, but rather the timing of it's release and the look / feel of it being so natural.
It's Alice returning to the studio to record an album after 6 years. By then, I hardly knew about him - and my interest only really began to delevop at the tail end of Brutal Planet's promotion and touring. I first saw him on the last leg of this tour, and by then I had Brutal Planet and a compilation album to hold my interest at home - which was plenty enough to start with.
what a good read and an interesting post.
I'm judging this more that just the songs however, but rather the timing of it's release and the look / feel of it being so natural.
It's Alice returning to the studio to record an album after 6 years. By then, I hardly knew about him - and my interest only really began to delevop at the tail end of Brutal Planet's promotion and touring. I first saw him on the last leg of this tour, and by then I had Brutal Planet and a compilation album to hold my interest at home - which was plenty enough to start with.
what a good read and an interesting post.
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TeresofBlood
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ElectedPlus makes a fantastic argument. My opinion is also probably dominated by the fact that I heard Dragontown first. But I'm also not that into industrial metal. Much of Brutal Planet sounds like Black Label Society featuring Alice Cooper. DT is like Billion Dollar Babies, as Brutal Planet is to Killer, in terms of sound. DT has a much lighter and more commercial sound, which I think works in its favor.
I think of albums as halves - side A and side B, because there had to be a beginning and end to each side. I know neither of these albums were on vinyl, but I still think of it that way. In the first half of BP, the only songs I find essential are the title track, Pick Up the Bones, and Eat Some More. The remaining songs are either not memorable or just nothing special.
On DT, the only songs I could do without are Triggerman and Deeper. Other than that the first half of DT is absolutely solid. Triggerman and Deeper aren't even bad tracks, just the weakest on the first half. Tracks 3-6 flow wonderfully.
As for the second halves of each album, Every Woman Has A Name takes the cake on DT. I also like Much Too Late and Just Wanna Be God. I could do without Sister Sara, The Sentinel and Disgraceland, even though Disgraceland is hilarious.
From BP, the only songs from the second side I find essential are Take it Like a Woman and Cold Machines. I also like The Little Things, but I could go either way on that one.
I think of albums as halves - side A and side B, because there had to be a beginning and end to each side. I know neither of these albums were on vinyl, but I still think of it that way. In the first half of BP, the only songs I find essential are the title track, Pick Up the Bones, and Eat Some More. The remaining songs are either not memorable or just nothing special.
On DT, the only songs I could do without are Triggerman and Deeper. Other than that the first half of DT is absolutely solid. Triggerman and Deeper aren't even bad tracks, just the weakest on the first half. Tracks 3-6 flow wonderfully.
As for the second halves of each album, Every Woman Has A Name takes the cake on DT. I also like Much Too Late and Just Wanna Be God. I could do without Sister Sara, The Sentinel and Disgraceland, even though Disgraceland is hilarious.
From BP, the only songs from the second side I find essential are Take it Like a Woman and Cold Machines. I also like The Little Things, but I could go either way on that one.
The idea behind BP was that Alice was warning us that we are heading in that direction. Alice tackeled many social issues on that record. The album was very modern and the music was aggressive.
However....both albums were injected with humour to lighten the mood. That was a mistake in my opinion because of the dark and serious subject manner. When compared to 'WYM' or 'pick up the bones' 'its the little things' seems a bit out of place and insignificant.
On DT, it really seems like Alice sort of changed his mind and direction about half way through the album. Like he diden't want to make another "downer" record IMO. For example: Disgraceland...as much as I love that tune, I felt a little weird laughing about Elvis in hell...if the subject matter is that serious I don't think he should have stuck that much humour in the album. Also Fantasy man probably should have been on BP as DT is supposed to be hell...Fantasy man just dosen't seem that threatening to me. A good song but out of place with the subject.
Also 'the Sentinal' seems like it should have been on BP as well. Which would have been a good prelude to DT.
I will say that DT is way more diverse then BP...no doubt.
I just felt that the humour watered down a very seriously themed statement...and while a lot of people like Alice's ballads of late, I felt they were really out of place on both BP and DT. The ballads seemed really forced to me, of course that is only my opinion.
I do like "Its much to late" but its not metal....therefore seems very out of place.
Its my personal opinion that Alice kinda got bored with the doom thing and did not want to be type casted so to speak, which is why I tkhink we saw songs like "Disgraceland and Much too late".
However....both albums were injected with humour to lighten the mood. That was a mistake in my opinion because of the dark and serious subject manner. When compared to 'WYM' or 'pick up the bones' 'its the little things' seems a bit out of place and insignificant.
On DT, it really seems like Alice sort of changed his mind and direction about half way through the album. Like he diden't want to make another "downer" record IMO. For example: Disgraceland...as much as I love that tune, I felt a little weird laughing about Elvis in hell...if the subject matter is that serious I don't think he should have stuck that much humour in the album. Also Fantasy man probably should have been on BP as DT is supposed to be hell...Fantasy man just dosen't seem that threatening to me. A good song but out of place with the subject.
Also 'the Sentinal' seems like it should have been on BP as well. Which would have been a good prelude to DT.
I will say that DT is way more diverse then BP...no doubt.
I just felt that the humour watered down a very seriously themed statement...and while a lot of people like Alice's ballads of late, I felt they were really out of place on both BP and DT. The ballads seemed really forced to me, of course that is only my opinion.
I do like "Its much to late" but its not metal....therefore seems very out of place.
Its my personal opinion that Alice kinda got bored with the doom thing and did not want to be type casted so to speak, which is why I tkhink we saw songs like "Disgraceland and Much too late".
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Alicehunter2000
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TeresofBlood wrote: Brutal Planet, but I don't think most of the songs are that memorable. They sound more like generic metal songs. DT sounds similar with a twist. That twist makes it interesting and memorable... for me, anyways.
I have to agree with this statement........as I have said before on numerous occations, BP feels like Alice trying too hard to be heavy. DT just feels more like Alice to me.......Does anyone know if Alice's imput was greater or less on either of these two albums?
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ThePainAddict
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I think DT totally trumps BO, and in large part due to the sharp wit (humor). I like the way SD&M and ITL turns the tables on the ones who think/pretend they are righteous. I really like the chorus on Sister Sara, I think the lilting Calico vocal with the more sinister Alice talking sneer harkens back to BDB. Also, I think placing Elvis in hell is the perfect coup de grace (wish he would have played that instead of Jailhouse Rock).
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NotSoPerfect
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Is that Calico on Sister Sara? I only ask as I was looking at the info for the album here on STUK, and it does list Calico on backing vocals, but has a separate credit for a voice on Sister Sara--Giovanna Moraga.
http://www.sickthingsuk.co.uk/albums/a-dt.php
http://www.sickthingsuk.co.uk/albums/a-dt.php
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Shoesalesman
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Alicehunter2000
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Maybe we should pit song by song against one another.
Brutal Planet vs. Triggerman
Wicked Young Man vs. Sister Sara
Sanctuary vs. Somewhere in the Jungle
Blow Me A Kiss vs Just Wanna Be God
Eat Some More vs Its Much Too Late
Pick Up The Bones v.s Dragontown
Pessi-Mystic vs. Deeper
Gimme vs Sex, Death and Money
It's The Little Things vs Disgraceland & Fantasy Man
Take It Like A Woman vs. Every Woman Has a Name
Cold Machines vs. The Sentinel
Brutal Planet vs. Triggerman
Wicked Young Man vs. Sister Sara
Sanctuary vs. Somewhere in the Jungle
Blow Me A Kiss vs Just Wanna Be God
Eat Some More vs Its Much Too Late
Pick Up The Bones v.s Dragontown
Pessi-Mystic vs. Deeper
Gimme vs Sex, Death and Money
It's The Little Things vs Disgraceland & Fantasy Man
Take It Like A Woman vs. Every Woman Has a Name
Cold Machines vs. The Sentinel
"Your as Stiff as my Smoking Barrel"
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Alicehunter2000
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Tie
Sister Sara-Dragontown
Sanctuary-Brutal Planet
Tie
It's Much Too Late-Dragontown
Tie
Tie (both bad)
Tie
Tie
Take it Like a Woman- Brutal Planet
The Sentinel- Dragontown
WOW! much closer than I thought for me......score
Brutal Planet ---2
Dragontown ---- 3
The rest of the songs are ties
Sister Sara-Dragontown
Sanctuary-Brutal Planet
Tie
It's Much Too Late-Dragontown
Tie
Tie (both bad)
Tie
Tie
Take it Like a Woman- Brutal Planet
The Sentinel- Dragontown
WOW! much closer than I thought for me......score
Brutal Planet ---2
Dragontown ---- 3
The rest of the songs are ties
"Your as Stiff as my Smoking Barrel"
BP vs TM
Musically I loved BP...I loved the sound of Alices voice. However TM is a close second. I like that song and its energy. But I figured TM should have been on BP as one of those who helps us get to Dragontown.
WYM vs Sister Sara
Well, wow both are great songs in their own right. I do love SS because the lyrics are hilarious at times.
But I love the heaviness of WYM so that is my pick.
Sanctuary vs Somewhere in the Jungle
Damn...Ok the first time I heard Sanctuary the hair seriously rose on the back of my neck...I love the song...the energy and the point. That song is me I guess. lol
SITJ...While I liked what they were doing with the harmanizing of the vocals I really diden't like the lyrics very much.
BMAK vs JWBG
Wow...well BMAK was definately a foreshadowing to a lot of future and current events. Disturbing...I liked it.
I also liked JWBG...although I'm not a fan of preaching I understand how some can be dangerous to themselves and others by thinking they are the be all and end all and I just take that from it. Without getting into any religous debates.
ESM vs IMTL
I hate Eat Some More lol. No I just think it's the weakest song on the album besides a couple of funny lyrics...musically its kinda filler IMO.
PUTB vs DT
PUTB is definatly disturbing and it succeds on all acounts but DT is awesome I think. But Some of the lyrics are cheesy so I gotta go with PUTB.
I love PessiMystic...damn I love it. Deeper is very cool too but some of the lyrics are not really that good.
Gimme
Disgraceland by far...but all out of place as far as I'm concerned.
The ballads...ugh...not a fan of either
Cold vs Sentinel. Hmmm. I really liked both....I guess cold machines
Musically I loved BP...I loved the sound of Alices voice. However TM is a close second. I like that song and its energy. But I figured TM should have been on BP as one of those who helps us get to Dragontown.
WYM vs Sister Sara
Well, wow both are great songs in their own right. I do love SS because the lyrics are hilarious at times.
But I love the heaviness of WYM so that is my pick.
Sanctuary vs Somewhere in the Jungle
Damn...Ok the first time I heard Sanctuary the hair seriously rose on the back of my neck...I love the song...the energy and the point. That song is me I guess. lol
SITJ...While I liked what they were doing with the harmanizing of the vocals I really diden't like the lyrics very much.
BMAK vs JWBG
Wow...well BMAK was definately a foreshadowing to a lot of future and current events. Disturbing...I liked it.
I also liked JWBG...although I'm not a fan of preaching I understand how some can be dangerous to themselves and others by thinking they are the be all and end all and I just take that from it. Without getting into any religous debates.
ESM vs IMTL
I hate Eat Some More lol. No I just think it's the weakest song on the album besides a couple of funny lyrics...musically its kinda filler IMO.
PUTB vs DT
PUTB is definatly disturbing and it succeds on all acounts but DT is awesome I think. But Some of the lyrics are cheesy so I gotta go with PUTB.
I love PessiMystic...damn I love it. Deeper is very cool too but some of the lyrics are not really that good.
Gimme
Disgraceland by far...but all out of place as far as I'm concerned.
The ballads...ugh...not a fan of either
Cold vs Sentinel. Hmmm. I really liked both....I guess cold machines