SickthingsUK

We are fortunate that Dick Wagner wrote his book before he passed. Also, the podcast regarding Dada is just as valuable.

At least we got a straightforward no b.s. account of what went on during the early solo years and even before the break-up.

Say what you want about Wagner, but the guy never minced words, was not afraid to tell you his mind and more importantly was not prone to telling tall tales or embellishments.

mr.barlow wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 25, 2024 4:59 pm

Si wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 25, 2024 4:23 pm

mr.barlow wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 25, 2024 4:18 pm

Which brings me to my last point. This would have been a perfect time to set the record straight and give credit to those who actually played on B$B. Wagner, Hunter, Dolin, Mashbir deserve their credit for their contributions to the legendary album. GB didn't play a note and gets full credit. What b.s.!

Interesting that you already have a copy of this reissue (It's not released until March 8th) so already know what is said and who is credited in the sleeve notes.

I'll be very surprised if there is credit given to those who played on on the album and more importantly that Glen Buxton does not play at all on the album.

But that isn't what you said. You stated "This *would have been* a perfect time to set the record straight" . I question how you know they haven't been credited?
Surely more correctly it should be "this would be a good time" unless you have already read all the liner notes and credits and so know they haven`t. You're calling BS on something you haven't even seen which seems a little unfair!

What is unfair that for the last 50 years the people who actually played the music on the album were never given proper credit and a person who did not play one note on the album was given full credit.

I get the whole point of crediting Glen at the time and to portray "an all is well" image to the fans and public but once the band broke-up and all the subsequent re-releases it still has never been corrected.

Do you think it's fair to those that actually played the music do not get credit for it?

mr.barlow wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 25, 2024 5:45 pm

What is unfair that for the last 50 years the people who actually played the music on the album were never given proper credit and a person who did not play one note on the album was given full credit.

I get the whole point of crediting Glen at the time and to portray "an all is well" image to the fans and public but once the band broke-up and all the subsequent re-releases it still has never been corrected.

Do you think it's fair to those that actually played the music do not get credit for it?

No, I don`t.
But that wasn't what I was questioning... as you well know.

Well we will find out on March 8th.

My bet is Glen will be credited as being on the album with no explanation given as to why.

Also, I don't think those involved will be given proper credit.

Also, I'm sure there will not be a mention of Wagner writing ILTD.

If there were I'm sure Alice would have had different "story" than the one e tells which is quoted in one of the above posts.

I'll be very thrilled if I'm proven wrong as those guys never being given proper credit is just horrible. Let's hope this re-release sets the record straight.

mr.barlow wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 25, 2024 4:18 pm

I always assumed (wrongly) that "My Stars" was co-written by Wagner using the same arrangement. The song has a very strong Wagner writing influence however it was written by Ezrin with lyrics by Alice. Wagner was paid a few bucks to perform on the track.

Apparently Michael Bruce wrote and played the bass parts on the demo for My Stars as Dennis was under the weather at the time. Dennis then played the parts MB came up with on the studio version of the song.

Years ago I indicated in another thread in this Forum that the quality of MS was great enough that more than one Member of the ACG must have had some involvement in the writing of the song; I didn't specify it back then, but the (rhythm) guitar parts during the verses in the song sound very much to me like something MB could/would have written.

Michael wrote in the 'School's Out' chapter in his own book about how he gave up a songwriting credit for Luney Tune on the SO album, therefore he could have done the same for MS.

Ted

Ted Sallis wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 25, 2024 6:14 pm

Apparently Michael Bruce wrote and played the bass parts on the demo for My Stars as Dennis was under the weather at the time. Dennis then played the parts MB came up with on the studio version of the song.

Years ago I indicated in another thread in this Forum that the quality of MS was great enough that more than one Member of the ACG must have had some involvement in the writing of the song; I didn't specify it back then, but the (rhythm) guitar parts during the verses in the song sound very much to me like something MB could/would have written.

Michael wrote in the 'School's Out' chapter in his own book about how he gave up a songwriting credit for Luney Tune on the SO album, therefore he could have done the same for MS.

Dennis has said may times that the writing credits didn't always reflect who actually had a part in the given song. For example he has said Glen should have got many more credits then he actually did.

Si wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 25, 2024 6:51 pm

Dennis has said may times that the writing credits didn't always reflect who actually had a part in the given song. For example he has said Glen should have got many more credits then he actually did.

True, and Michael Bruce stated more or less the same thing in his book re. the songwriting credits. As an FYI, there was also one song - Gutter Cat vs The Jets - that DD stated he gave GB partial credit for although Glen didn't actually contribute to the writing of the song. I think Dennis discussed it in his own Forum in this website.

Ted

mr.barlow wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 25, 2024 4:59 pm

Si wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 25, 2024 4:23 pm

mr.barlow wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 25, 2024 4:18 pm

Which brings me to my last point. This would have been a perfect time to set the record straight and give credit to those who actually played on B$B. Wagner, Hunter, Dolin, Mashbir deserve their credit for their contributions to the legendary album. GB didn't play a note and gets full credit. What b.s.!

Interesting that you already have a copy of this reissue (It's not released until March 8th) so already know what is said and who is credited in the sleeve notes.

I'll be very surprised if there is credit given to those who played on on the album and more importantly that Glen Buxton does not play at all on the album.

Except he does. He is on the album. Admittedly not much but something is more than nothing.

mr.barlow wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 25, 2024 3:50 pm

Dick Wagner always told things straight up and was not known for embellishing events.

I'll take Wagner's recollection over anyone else's especially Michael Bruce.

Musically the song is pure Wagner. It would have fit perfectly on WTMN and I'm sure it had a big impact on the genesis and direction of WTMN.

Maybe MB wrote the chorus to "The Black Widow" too and I'm sure he also wrote the chorus to "Inmates (We're All Crazy).

Except this isn’t Dick Wagner’s recollection, it’s Alice’s. I think it would be wrong to just assume that Alice and Dick sat down together, wrote the song, presented to the band as a finished article and that was it. While I’ve never heard any work in progress versions of ILTD there are many available of other songs in the band’s repertoire and most show lyrics and arrangements in a state of flux until the finished master. There’s no reason why this couldn’t be the case here.
As for Mike Bruce’s contribution, he was at least there and part of this record unlike with the other songs you mentioned.

I've pre-ordered this. Of course I would have preferred a different show and different outtakes, I like that we get a complete set list for a B$B show and after all these years of owning 3 different vinyl versions of the album, I finally will own a Billion Dollar bill. My 1976 Burbank issue bought brand new never had the bill nor lyric sheet, and the 2 used copies (another Burbank and a Beige label) also never contained the bill.

Toronto Bob wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 26, 2024 5:56 am

I've pre-ordered this. Of course I would have preferred a different show and different outtakes, I like that we get a complete set list for a B$B show and after all these years of owning 3 different vinyl versions of the album, I finally will own a Billion Dollar bill. My 1976 Burbank issue bought brand new never had the bill nor lyric sheet, and the 2 used copies (another Burbank and a Beige label) also never contained the bill.

I remember finding a second hand copy in a record store for £6!! Green label, all the cards and the billion dollar bill! I was so excited especially as the copy I had before was a cassette which didn’t even have the song credits.l, just a tiny facsimile of the album cover with a black background.

mr.barlow wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 25, 2024 5:06 pm

We are fortunate that Dick Wagner wrote his book before he passed. Also, the podcast regarding Dada is just as valuable.

At least we got a straightforward no b.s. account of what went on during the early solo years and even before the break-up.

Say what you want about Wagner, but the guy never minced words, was not afraid to tell you his mind and more importantly was not prone to telling tall tales or embellishments.

The key word there is “account”. I take no people’s accounts of historical events as completely accurate simply because nobody’s memory is that good over long periods and nobody has perfect recollection.

I did find Dick Wagner’s version of some events more plausible than other’s but ultimately, anyone’s recollection of anything is always subject to subconscious bias. It’s memory, not necessarily fact e.g. $6000 for half the writing credits for a song back then is over $40,000 now. Was Shep really that generous/confident? I’m not so sure at all.

del wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 26, 2024 8:47 am

mr.barlow wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 25, 2024 5:06 pm

We are fortunate that Dick Wagner wrote his book before he passed. Also, the podcast regarding Dada is just as valuable.

At least we got a straightforward no b.s. account of what went on during the early solo years and even before the break-up.

Say what you want about Wagner, but the guy never minced words, was not afraid to tell you his mind and more importantly was not prone to telling tall tales or embellishments.

The key word there is “account”. I take no people’s accounts of historical events as completely accurate simply because nobody’s memory is that good over long periods and nobody has perfect recollection.

I did find Dick Wagner’s version of some events more plausible than other’s but ultimately, anyone’s recollection of anything is always subject to subconscious bias. It’s memory, not necessarily fact e.g. $6000 for half the writing credits for a song back then is over $40,000 now. Was Shep really that generous/confident? I’m not so sure at all.

Shep stole it at that price even by 1973 standards. I would bet that song is still generating a decent royalty now..50 years later.

Shep doesn't own a compound in Maui because he makes poor business decisions.

Also, I agree that no one's memory is perfect. But I' m quite sure that even person with dementia would remember selling a song which likely earned near a million dollars over the course of the years for 6k.

This is where I sometimes think we look at things a bit generously when we throw figures about for ACG.

“ For all releases after January 1, 2024, the Copyright Royalty Board (CRB) has increased the "per unit" statutory mechanical royalty rate for Physical media and Digital Downloads from 12 cents / 2.31 cents per minute (or fraction thereof) to 12.4 cents / 2.38 cents per minute (or fraction thereof).”

This rate was 2 cents until 1978, by when the vast majority of sales would have taken place. Let’s say the album sold a million by then. That means only $20k and this would often be split with publishing rights. Multiply this by 3 to cover worldwide sales before and after ‘78 and then add streaming (say 6 cents per 100 streams) and the likes of YouTube (maybe .7 of a cent) income and you still don’t get a fortune.

I think Shep would have been taking a bit of a punt with $6k, particularly when Schools Out was possibly only around the 1- 2 million sales worldwide by then.

If I’m wrong about royalty rates then fine with me but was Shep really that confident then, particularly when nobody would have seen a future for the music beyond 10 years or so?

mr.barlow wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 26, 2024 4:24 pm

Also, I agree that no one's memory is perfect. But I' m quite sure that even person with dementia would remember selling a song which likely earned near a million dollars over the course of the years for 6k.

My mother has dementia. Some days she does'nt know me. She doesnt know what day it is or year or where she is. So I would'nt be so sure of that Mr. B

mr.barlow wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 26, 2024 4:24 pm

Also, I agree that no one's memory is perfect. But I' m quite sure that even person with dementia would remember selling a song which likely earned near a million dollars over the course of the years for 6k.

THE most stupid statement of 2024, take a bow Barlow...

rodentdog wrote: ↑

Tue Jan 30, 2024 9:51 am

mr.barlow wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 26, 2024 4:24 pm

Also, I agree that no one's memory is perfect. But I' m quite sure that even person with dementia would remember selling a song which likely earned near a million dollars over the course of the years for 6k.

My mother has dementia. Some days she does'nt know me. She doesnt know what day it is or year or where she is. So I would'nt be so sure of that Mr. B

My father has it and is about the same. He still has his sense of humor and laughs about his forgetfulness. He said the main problem is he can't remember all the people that owe him money
.

Mr B. where do you get your figures from for the income you think that people make from ACG music? "Likely earned nearly a miĺion.." How? I put up what I understand to be the most likely calculations and they get nowhere near. I'm happy to be corrected if im wrong but where's the evidence?

My dad died over a year ago. He never had issues with his memory and was relied upon for his ability to recall events with great accuracy. Only thing was that when I was dealing with his estate I found that one of his undoubted facts that he repeated numerous times over the years, about a deal he was screwed on back in the 60s, was actually wrong. The value was wrong and we had only ever got half the story.The bit about lost future money.

The other half was that the deal had actually enabled him to get a mortgage, pay off debts and plan for the future. The figure was under £4k and without it his life and mine would have been entirely different. In any event he couldn't have earned the money he told us because the law had changed several times over the years.

It's great to tell stories about what might have been but what did that $6k ($40k plus today) do at the time? Listening to half a story, grabbing it and using it for an agenda about alleged mistreatment in the past doesn't work for me