SickthingsUK

Si wrote:I think all the people involved (GB aside) have at one time or another said that you should take the writing credits with a grain of salt on those albums. There are some songs that they claim are completely inaccurate.

Exactly - Michael stated as much in his book and Dennis certainly made similar points on the subject in his book. Also, I believe it's stated in this website that Alice believes that MB's recollection of who wrote what in the ACG Group in his book is 90% incorrect.

Ted

Ted Sallis wrote:

pitkin88 wrote:I Love The Dead was bought from Dick which is why he gets no credit. Apparantly he needed the cash. I am guessing it was an instrumental, or had the original lyrics replaced, as those are Alice's lyrics AFAIK. Not sure if this is mentioned in Dick's book or not. It would certainly be nice to hear a demo assuming one exists.

Yes it would certainly be nice to hear a demo of ILTD assuming one exists - if so, it's then a question of why it wasn't included in the Deluxe Edition 2CD release of BDB.

Ted

If it did exist it would be a Dick Wagner demo rather than an Alice Cooper demo

Babysquid wrote:

Ted Sallis wrote:Yes it would certainly be nice to hear a demo of ILTD assuming one exists - if so, it's then a question of why it wasn't included in the Deluxe Edition 2CD release of BDB.

Ted

If it did exist it would be a Dick Wagner demo rather than an Alice Cooper demo

You mean that DW would have demoed the song on his own? Was he responsible for the genesis of that song?

Ted

Ted Sallis wrote:

Babysquid wrote:

Ted Sallis wrote:Yes it would certainly be nice to hear a demo of ILTD assuming one exists - if so, it's then a question of why it wasn't included in the Deluxe Edition 2CD release of BDB.

Ted

If it did exist it would be a Dick Wagner demo rather than an Alice Cooper demo

You mean that DW would have demoed the song on his own? Was he responsible for the genesis of that song?

Ted

Well they bought it from Dick so it would have to be.

From Ted Sallis:
"I completely agree - the definition of composition versus arrangement often is a thorny issue. 2 songs in the ACG catalog are attributed to Alice and Bob only: My Stars and I Love the Dead."

According to Michael Bruce, he had a hand in writing the latter song as well.

A_MichaelUK wrote:From Ted Sallis:
"I completely agree - the definition of composition versus arrangement often is a thorny issue. 2 songs in the ACG catalog are attributed to Alice and Bob only: My Stars and I Love the Dead."

According to Michael Bruce, he had a hand in writing the latter song as well.

I'll paraphrase Dick Wagner from his book. There is a specific "chapter" regarding this song.

Wagner was brought in by Shep and Ezrin at the request of Alice who first met him in 1969 when he was with The Frost. Wagner states that Alice was very vocal about bringing in Wagner to play guitar in the band long before WTMN and as far back as 1969! I guess this explains Wagner playing on School's Out. Alice was a HUGE fan of Wagner and his style and abilities.

Wagner was brought in to write for the B$B album by Shep and Ezrin and was brought to the Greenwich Mansion where all of the band members were staying. Wagner states that "I Love The Dead" was written by Alice and himself. Wagner wrote most of the music with some input from Ezrin and Alice providing all of the lyrics. He was in need of money and accepted Shep's offer of $6,000 for his signing away all rights and credits to the song.

Wagner lamented this decision but said he felt no hard feelings as he agreed to the deal and it was the beginning of his fruitful relationship with Alice.

A_MichaelUK wrote:From Ted Sallis:
"I completely agree - the definition of composition versus arrangement often is a thorny issue. 2 songs in the ACG catalog are attributed to Alice and Bob only: My Stars and I Love the Dead."

According to Michael Bruce, he had a hand in writing the latter song as well.

That's right - in his book, Michael stated that he wrote the chorus section to 'lighten the song up' due to it's otherwise dark tone (subject matter).

Ted

mr.barlow wrote:I'll paraphrase Dick Wagner from his book. There is a specific "chapter" regarding this song.

Wagner was brought in by Shep and Ezrin at the request of Alice who first met him in 1969 when he was with The Frost. Wagner states that Alice was very vocal about bringing in Wagner to play guitar in the band long before WTMN and as far back as 1969! I guess this explains Wagner playing on School's Out. Alice was a HUGE fan of Wagner and his style and abilities.

Wagner was brought in to write for the B$B album by Shep and Ezrin and was brought to the Greenwich Mansion where all of the band members were staying. Wagner states that "I Love The Dead" was written by Alice and himself. Wagner wrote most of the music with some input from Ezrin and Alice providing all of the lyrics. He was in need of money and accepted Shep's offer of $6,000 for his signing away all rights and credits to the song.

Wagner lamented this decision but said he felt no hard feelings as he agreed to the deal and it was the beginning of his fruitful relationship with Alice.

Thank you for your response. In view of what you state above, I think (and this of course is just my view) it's unfortunate that things didn't transpire differently. If Glen Buxton wasn't able to overcome his issues, possibly Dick Wagner could have replaced him in the ACG. Of course due to the band needing a break then Alice, Michael and Neal recording solo albums, etc. led to things turning out quite differently. And that's not even considering what Shep might have thought about the idea of DW replacing GB.

Ted

There is absolutely no mention of Michael Bruce's contribution by Wagner. He explicitly states that it was Alice and himself with some input from Ezrin. Also, if you are familiar with Dick Wagner's writing style, the chorus screams Dick Wagner. That's why it stands out from the rest of the album. That's why it meshes perfectly into WTMN.

What I'd love to know is if Wagner was brought to the mansion to write for B$B, is if he had any other writing input into any of the other songs. Maybe the original band memebers or their reps on the forum could shed some insight on this. Was there any group writing sessions that involved Wagner, or did he work alone with Alice? If he did not offer any writing assistance was he involved in any of the arrangements of the songs?

In his book, Wagner speaks of "I Love The Dead" and being brought to the mansion to write for B$B, but then he jumps to WTMN. Also, no mention of his involvement with MOL.

I'd love to know how long Wagner was at the mansion and what/if any interactions he had with the other original members when it came to writing this album. He did state that all of the band were living at the mansion when he was there. So much for any conspiracy theories about "secret" writing going on between Alice, Wagner and Ezrin.

Ted Sallis wrote:

mr.barlow wrote:I'll paraphrase Dick Wagner from his book. There is a specific "chapter" regarding this song.

Wagner was brought in by Shep and Ezrin at the request of Alice who first met him in 1969 when he was with The Frost. Wagner states that Alice was very vocal about bringing in Wagner to play guitar in the band long before WTMN and as far back as 1969! I guess this explains Wagner playing on School's Out. Alice was a HUGE fan of Wagner and his style and abilities.

Wagner was brought in to write for the B$B album by Shep and Ezrin and was brought to the Greenwich Mansion where all of the band members were staying. Wagner states that "I Love The Dead" was written by Alice and himself. Wagner wrote most of the music with some input from Ezrin and Alice providing all of the lyrics. He was in need of money and accepted Shep's offer of $6,000 for his signing away all rights and credits to the song.



Wagner lamented this decision but said he felt no hard feelings as he agreed to the deal and it was the beginning of his fruitful relationship with Alice.

Thank you for your response. In view of what you state above, I think (and this of course is just my view) it's unfortunate that things didn't transpire differently. If Glen Buxton wasn't able to overcome his issues, possibly Dick Wagner could have replaced him in the ACG. Of course due to the band needing a break then Alice, Michael and Neal recording solo albums, etc. led to things turning out quite differently. And that's not even considering what Shep might have thought about the idea of DW replacing GB.

Ted

You're welcome. I think this may have been the plan. In order for Wagner to be brought to the mansion to write, I'm sure it had to be agreed upon by the other members of the band. So much for the Alice and Shep screwing Glen narrative. Again--this is my speculation and I'm hoping someone who was there could confirm or deny this.

I can also see how Alice ended up taking his collaborating with Wagner to a new level after MB announced he wanted to do a solo album. Wagner stated that he and Alice had instant chemistry and clicked on all levels. You could see how Alice would choose the synergy and chemisty he had with Wagner for his solo endeavor. Also, one could understand how Alice--or anyone for that matter--would decide to go with a new working creative relationship then to go back to one that was quickly deteriorating.

mr.barlow wrote:There is absolutely no mention of Michael Bruce's contribution by Wagner. He explicitly states that it was Alice and himself with some input from Ezrin. Also, if you are familiar with Dick Wagner's writing style, the chorus screams Dick Wagner. That's why it stands out from the rest of the album. That's why it meshes perfectly into WTMN.

What I'd love to know is if Wagner was brought to the mansion to write for B$B, is if he had any other writing input into any of the other songs. Maybe the original band memebers or their reps on the forum could shed some insight on this. Was there any group writing sessions that involved Wagner, or did he work alone with Alice? If he did not offer any writing assistance was he involved in any of the arrangements of the songs?

In his book, Wagner speaks of "I Love The Dead" and being brought to the mansion to write for B$B, but then he jumps to WTMN. Also, no mention of his involvement with MOL.

I'd love to know how long Wagner was at the mansion and what/if any interactions he had with the other original members when it came to writing this album. He did state that all of the band were living at the mansion when he was there. So much for any conspiracy theories about "secret" writing going on between Alice, Wagner and Ezrin.

Without any access to what songs were recorded on what day and if overdubs were done at a later date we really have no way of knowing. My understanding is some tracks ( referred to as bed tracks ) were recorded at the mansion and other stuff in London at a later date.

My guess is Dick came down to do solos as did Steve Hunter. He might have had the music to I Love The Dead and played it to Alice and Bob who liked. Alice writes the lyrics and then the band et al set out to record. Michael could well have had some imput. I always thought the Blue Moon piece was suggested by Mike and Dennis.

I really don't think Wagner was brough in specifically to write for or with the band. Maybe they were one song short and ILTD was that song. Again having no access to the recording logs and which songs were recorded first who knows.

mr.barlow wrote:

Ted Sallis wrote:

mr.barlow wrote:I'll paraphrase Dick Wagner from his book. There is a specific "chapter" regarding this song.

Wagner was brought in by Shep and Ezrin at the request of Alice who first met him in 1969 when he was with The Frost. Wagner states that Alice was very vocal about bringing in Wagner to play guitar in the band long before WTMN and as far back as 1969! I guess this explains Wagner playing on School's Out. Alice was a HUGE fan of Wagner and his style and abilities.

Wagner was brought in to write for the B$B album by Shep and Ezrin and was brought to the Greenwich Mansion where all of the band members were staying. Wagner states that "I Love The Dead" was written by Alice and himself. Wagner wrote most of the music with some input from Ezrin and Alice providing all of the lyrics. He was in need of money and accepted Shep's offer of $6,000 for his signing away all rights and credits to the song.



Wagner lamented this decision but said he felt no hard feelings as he agreed to the deal and it was the beginning of his fruitful relationship with Alice.

Thank you for your response. In view of what you state above, I think (and this of course is just my view) it's unfortunate that things didn't transpire differently. If Glen Buxton wasn't able to overcome his issues, possibly Dick Wagner could have replaced him in the ACG. Of course due to the band needing a break then Alice, Michael and Neal recording solo albums, etc. led to things turning out quite differently. And that's not even considering what Shep might have thought about the idea of DW replacing GB.

Ted

You're welcome. I think this may have been the plan. In order for Wagner to be brought to the mansion to write, I'm sure it had to be agreed upon by the other members of the band. So much for the Alice and Shep screwing Glen narrative. Again--this is my speculation and I'm hoping someone who was there could confirm or deny this.

I can also see how Alice ended up taking his collaborating with Wagner to a new level after MB announced he wanted to do a solo album. Wagner stated that he and Alice had instant chemistry and clicked on all levels. You could see how Alice would choose the synergy and chemisty he had with Wagner for his solo endeavor. Also, one could understand how Alice--or anyone for that matter--would decide to go with a new working creative relationship then to go back to one that was quickly deteriorating.

I'm not sure there is any narrative of Alice/Shep screwing Glen. He was still an equal member and getting paid for playing live and presumably royalties on an album ( or maybe two ) that he barely featured on.

Writing w Wagner must have been a breath of fresh air as Alice didnt have the imput of MB DD MS and GB to contend with. It could be more his vision plus Wagner could pretty much play anything.

My "screwing Glen narrative" was basically in reference to past postings by a gentleman--I think he went by Jim Buttplug--or something similar, who was convinced there was "a plan" by Alice and Shep to oust Glen from the band and to screw him over.

I was one of a few on here who always argued the opposite and agreed with what you are saying. Alice and Shep along with the other original members went out of their way to shield and protect Glen and to try to get him help. They also allowed him to benefit financially for compositions he had no hand in writing.

I also agree with you in that working with Wagner at that point for Alice must have been a huge relief. Wagner was an incredible writer and talent.

I recently spoke with a member of one of Alice's touring bands (not at the same time as Wagner) who stated to me that Dick Wagner was one of the most "monsterously creative" people he has ever met. Just an incredible--and underrated talent. Like you said--the guy could write and play anything.

mr.barlow wrote:There is absolutely no mention of Michael Bruce's contribution by Wagner. He explicitly states that it was Alice and himself with some input from Ezrin. Also, if you are familiar with Dick Wagner's writing style, the chorus screams Dick Wagner. That's why it stands out from the rest of the album. That's why it meshes perfectly into WTMN.

In his book, Wagner speaks of "I Love The Dead" and being brought to the mansion to write for B$B, but then he jumps to WTMN. Also, no mention of his involvement with MOL.

He (Wagner) did state that all of the band were living at the mansion when he was there. So much for any conspiracy theories about "secret" writing going on between Alice, Wagner and Ezrin.

So it's uncertain (at least to me) whether or not MB had any input into the writing of ILTD.

Regarding Dick Wagner and MOL, in his book Michael Bruce states that the main guitar parts on the album were played by him, Mick Mashbir, Steve Hunter and Dick Wagner.

I don't recall any conspiracy theories about "secret" writing going on between Alice, Wagner and Ezrin. Reminds me of the rumours that the ACG had a guitarist playing behind a curtain during their last tour(s) in order to make up for Glen Buxton's faltering playing.

Ted

mr.barlow wrote:I can also see how Alice ended up taking his collaborating with Wagner to a new level after MB announced he wanted to do a solo album. Wagner stated that he and Alice had instant chemistry and clicked on all levels. You could see how Alice would choose the synergy and chemisty he had with Wagner for his solo endeavor. Also, one could understand how Alice--or anyone for that matter--would decide to go with a new working creative relationship then to go back to one that was quickly deteriorating.

I basically agree with this. To tie in with one of my previous posts, perhaps if Dick Wagner had replaced Glen in the ACG, it would have helped salvage the quickly deteriorating creative relationship in the band.

Ted

pitkin88 wrote:Without any access to what songs were recorded on what day and if overdubs were done at a later date we really have no way of knowing. My understanding is some tracks ( referred to as bed tracks ) were recorded at the mansion and other stuff in London at a later date.

My guess is Dick came down to do solos as did Steve Hunter. He might have had the music to I Love The Dead and played it to Alice and Bob who liked. Alice writes the lyrics and then the band et al set out to record. Michael could well have had some imput. I always thought the Blue Moon piece was suggested by Mike and Dennis.

I really don't think Wagner was brough in specifically to write for or with the band. Maybe they were one song short and ILTD was that song. Again having no access to the recording logs and which songs were recorded first who knows.

I agree with all of the above.

Ted

pitkin88 wrote:I'm not sure there is any narrative of Alice/Shep screwing Glen. He was still an equal member and getting paid for playing live and presumably royalties on an album ( or maybe two ) that he barely featured on.

Apparently GB barely played on BDB and MOL. Glen was paid an equal share of the BDB Tour profits (which weren't much) as the rest of the band and presumably his fair share for all of the other tours he was on, as well as the above 2 albums. So I don't know why it's been stated that Alice/Shep were screwing Glen.

Ted

mr.barlow wrote:My "screwing Glen narrative" was basically in reference to past postings by a gentleman--I think he went by Jim Buttplug--or something similar, who was convinced there was "a plan" by Alice and Shep to oust Glen from the band and to screw him over.

I was one of a few on here who always argued the opposite and agreed with what you are saying. Alice and Shep along with the other original members went out of their way to shield and protect Glen and to try to get him help. They also allowed him to benefit financially for compositions he had no hand in writing.

I see. Well I think this 'Jim Buttplug' or whomever is/was completely out to lunch. If that were the case, why (or should I state how) did MB, NS and DD also suddenly find themselves no longer a part of Alice Cooper?

I agree with your second paragraph above. Basically the same thing was stated by Michael Bruce in his book (about trying to get help for GB, etc.) and Dennis kind of alludes to the same in his book.

Ted