SickthingsUK

There is no need for a crystal ball as the reality of what happened is what actually happened. There is no need for further speculation.

I would ask that you ask any of the original members if they woukd have achieved the success that they achieved had they not met Shep Gordon.

You are correct is saying that Shep also benefited GREATLY by being introduced to the band. The fact is that the neither would have achieved the level of stardom without each other.

You can daydream up fantasies of what may have been if it had been otherwise, but the fact of the matter is it will never change the historical outcome.

As far as managing "1 personality" is concerned--well that too is a true statement. Alice trusted Shep while the others had their reservations (some for very good and valid reasons). Alice decided to go with Shep and the rest is history. That decision has served Alice well for the last 40+ years. If I remember it corectly he is still on the road and doing just fine. The Hollywood Vampires project (although I loathe it) was pretty successful, got tons of press (still getting some) and got an old fart like Alice some great exposure. You can bet that Shep had a LOT to do with it!

mr.barlow wrote:There is no need for a crystal ball as the reality of what happened is what actually happened. There is no need for further speculation.

I would ask that you ask any of the original members if they woukd have achieved the success that they achieved had they not met Shep Gordon.

You are correct is saying that Shep also benefited GREATLY by being introduced to the band. The fact is that the neither would have achieved the level of stardom without each other.

You can daydream up fantasies of what may have been if it had been otherwise, but the fact of the matter is it will never change the historical outcome.

As far as managing "1 personality" is concerned--well that too is a true statement. Alice trusted Shep while the others had their reservations (some for very good and valid reasons). Alice decided to go with Shep and the rest is history. That decision has served Alice well for the last 40+ years. If I remember it corectly he is still on the road and doing just fine. The Hollywood Vampires project (although I loathe it) was pretty successful, got tons of press (still getting some) and got an old fart like Alice some great exposure. You can bet that Shep had a LOT to do with it!

What if they never met Ezrin? Did Joe Greenberg have nothing to do with their success? It's too easy to just paint Shep as the puppet master there were many people involved.

pitkin88 wrote:

mr.barlow wrote:There is no need for a crystal ball as the reality of what happened is what actually happened. There is no need for further speculation.

I would ask that you ask any of the original members if they woukd have achieved the success that they achieved had they not met Shep Gordon.

You are correct is saying that Shep also benefited GREATLY by being introduced to the band. The fact is that the neither would have achieved the level of stardom without each other.

You can daydream up fantasies of what may have been if it had been otherwise, but the fact of the matter is it will never change the historical outcome.

As far as managing "1 personality" is concerned--well that too is a true statement. Alice trusted Shep while the others had their reservations (some for very good and valid reasons). Alice decided to go with Shep and the rest is history. That decision has served Alice well for the last 40+ years. If I remember it corectly he is still on the road and doing just fine. The Hollywood Vampires project (although I loathe it) was pretty successful, got tons of press (still getting some) and got an old fart like Alice some great exposure. You can bet that Shep had a LOT to do with it!

What if they never met Ezrin? Did Joe Greenberg have nothing to do with their success? It's too easy to just paint Shep as the puppet master there were many people involved.

What if Alice had never met Michael Bruce?

If Alice had never met Michael Bruce then I would guess that meeting Shep would have never happened and likely there would have never been an Alice Cooper in the first place.

Also, if Alice's mother never met Alice's father there would have never been an Alice Cooper to meet Michael Bruce to meet Shep Gordon.

Also, if Earth were just a bit closer to the sun there would be no life on this planet.

mr.barlow wrote:If there never was Shep Gordon no one would have ever heard of Alice Cooper.

This is a parlor game to be sure, but nothing wrong with parlor games! Here's another alternate reality:

If Shep never meets Alice then the band is scrambling to find a manager so they can record with Frank Zappa. Recording with Zappa gives them some notoriety, some underground cult status that they can build on.

The band is cutting edge, they have a pulse on the future of popular music and culture. Bob Ezrin saw that right away when he went to their concert in NY. I believe someone else would have come along and recognized their potential as well.

The question is what direction it would have gone. Would Alice have remained an androgynous act or still moved towards horror? My guess is another prominent figure would have entered their lives to provide guidance. And that would have set them down another road both musically and in terms of their stage image.

I don't believe meeting Shep was the difference between making it big and not making it at all. They would have probably still built a career, but it would have been entirely different.

Would love to see some of those parallel universes to see how they turned out.

mr.barlow wrote:If Alice had never met Michael Bruce then I would guess that meeting Shep would have never happened and likely there would have never been an Alice Cooper in the first place.

Also, if Alice's mother never met Alice's father there would have never been an Alice Cooper to meet Michael Bruce to meet Shep Gordon.

Also, if Earth were just a bit closer to the sun there would be no life on this planet.

Everything is, of course, speculative yet interesting to discuss. My take is that Ezrin was the most important catalyst for the band's success. He took them apart and rebuilt them from the ground up, musically. Same as George Martin's role with The Beatles- young & raw talent that needed developed and guided.

I agree completely! It's no coincidence that Alice's best albums were the ones with Ezrin involved.

I agree completely! It's no coincidence that Alice's best albums were the ones with Ezrin involved.

From darkmenace:
"Bob Ezrin saw that right away when he went to their concert in NY."

It was Shep and Joe Greenberg (along with Leo Fenn) who harrassed Jack Richardson to the point where he sent Ezrin to see the band play, so your scenario isn't realistic.

A_MichaelUK wrote: It was Shep and Joe Greenberg (along with Leo Fenn) who harrassed Jack Richardson to the point where he sent Ezrin to see the band play, so your scenario isn't realistic.

I probably didn't explain it well. My point was if Shep was never involved someone else would have noticed the potential of the band and guided them to some level of fame and fortune. I was using Bob Ezrin as an example of how the band made a strong impact. Had Shep not been involved, hence Ezrin not being involved, I believe someone else would have emerged.

From darkmenace:
"I probably didn't explain it well. My point was if Shep was never involved someone else would have noticed the potential of the band and guided them to some level of fame and fortune"

There weren't tons of managers knocking on the band's door offering their services. What you say is still an unrealistic albeit somewhat optimistic prospect given that at that point the band was pretty much either ignored, rejected or reviled by just about everyone in a position of any influence in the industry. What you say isn't impossible but history is probably littered with lots of bands with lots of "potential" that never got that one lucky break that would have helped bring them any success.

It is plausible however, that Colonel Tom Parker could have ended up managing the band had he crossed paths with them before Shep.

A_MichaelUK wrote:From darkmenace:
"I probably didn't explain it well. My point was if Shep was never involved someone else would have noticed the potential of the band and guided them to some level of fame and fortune"

There weren't tons of managers knocking on the band's door offering their services. What you say is still an unrealistic albeit somewhat optimistic prospect given that at that point the band was pretty much either ignored, rejected or reviled by just about everyone in a position of any influence in the industry. What you say isn't impossible but history is probably littered with lots of bands with lots of "potential" that never got that one lucky break that would have helped bring them any success.

I'm just wondering if they were reviled so much how the hell did they ever get any gigs in the first place?

From Babysquid:
"I'm just wondering if they were reviled so much how the hell did they ever get any gigs in the first place?"

This is all documented and can be easily researched. They had a booking agent in Los Angeles that seemed to believe in them for some reason and once Shep and Joe came along they used their hustling skills to get the band as much work as they could. They also established relationships with people like Marshall Brevitz who was a promoter but the point is, it took the four years or so between the band arriving in Los Angeles and meeting Bob Ezrin for them to really to start to get some traction (and in that time they tried to get a record deal, got a record deal through their initiative rather than apparent talent, released two singles and two albums which failed, tried to get out of their contract with Straight Records, tried to sue Straight Records and were sued in return, worked with a producer who didn't like or understand them, had to leave Los Angeles, drove around the country looking for an audience until they ended up in Detroit where they were accepted) and as Dennis Dunaway said in "Super Duper Alice Cooper", there were obstacles everywhere they went, (and I would hope most people here are already familiar with all of this).

If they'd have just listened to Pretties For You then they would have told Ezrin to stay in bed.

Pretties for You is a really good psychedelic garage band album. Imagine if it was successful and Zappa kept a keen interest in them, and they stayed in that musical vein. No Ezrin, no hard rock classic albums, & no career as we know it. "Reflected" could have been a minor hit and they would have followed that style. Mike Bruce was writing beautiful melodies (e.g.- "Beautiful Flyaway") and it might have been only a matter of time before one of those songs became a top 40 hit. "Shoe Salesman" is another nice melody. Alice Cookies would have had a three album deal and then faded in to obscurity. Remembered as a cool band with short-lived success such as The Electric Prunes.

Mr.Bluelegs wrote:Pretties for You is a really good psychedelic garage band album. Imagine if it was successful and Zappa kept a keen interest in them, and they stayed in that musical vein. No Ezrin, no hard rock classic albums, & no career as we know it. "Reflected" could have been a minor hit and they would have followed that style. Mike Bruce was writing beautiful melodies (e.g.- "Beautiful Flyaway") and it might have been only a matter of time before one of those songs became a top 40 hit. "Shoe Salesman" is another nice melody. Alice Cookies would have had a three album deal and then faded in to obscurity. Remembered as a cool band with short-lived success such as The Electric Prunes.

The Electric Prunes had some GREAT songs. PFY has ZERO.

pitkin88 wrote:

Mr.Bluelegs wrote:Pretties for You is a really good psychedelic garage band album. Imagine if it was successful and Zappa kept a keen interest in them, and they stayed in that musical vein. No Ezrin, no hard rock classic albums, & no career as we know it. "Reflected" could have been a minor hit and they would have followed that style. Mike Bruce was writing beautiful melodies (e.g.- "Beautiful Flyaway") and it might have been only a matter of time before one of those songs became a top 40 hit. "Shoe Salesman" is another nice melody. Alice Cookies would have had a three album deal and then faded in to obscurity. Remembered as a cool band with short-lived success such as The Electric Prunes.

The Electric Prunes had some GREAT songs. PFY has ZERO.

I love PFY

pitkin88 wrote:

Mr.Bluelegs wrote:Pretties for You is a really good psychedelic garage band album. Imagine if it was successful and Zappa kept a keen interest in them, and they stayed in that musical vein. No Ezrin, no hard rock classic albums, & no career as we know it. "Reflected" could have been a minor hit and they would have followed that style. Mike Bruce was writing beautiful melodies (e.g.- "Beautiful Flyaway") and it might have been only a matter of time before one of those songs became a top 40 hit. "Shoe Salesman" is another nice melody. Alice Cookies would have had a three album deal and then faded in to obscurity. Remembered as a cool band with short-lived success such as The Electric Prunes.

The Electric Prunes had some GREAT songs. PFY has ZERO.

You are missing my point. I just used The Electric Prunes as an example of a one-hit wonder from the '60's who faded fast. I could have used The Seeds or a few dozen other examples. Point was to envision the band having moderate success from the beginning and never being able to morph in to the band we know and love."Reflected" or "Fields of Regret" are not that hard to imagine as being minor chart successes for a band of that era.