SHOCKER-Alice Not nominated again! but.............
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- Dada God
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Re: SHOCKER-Alice Not nominated again! but.............
>What I am saying it is Jann's call, the committee votes as he wants, and it is based on his whims, preferences, and personal politics not the stated criteria.
But how does that have anything to do with "an openly gay man" not liking Alice's faith?
>I am also stating the evidence is Coop is not ranked highly on his list of whims, preferences, and personal politics.
I think it's more likely that Jan Wenner is both ignorant of Alice's acheivements and that he hates Alice's music (whether it be by the original band or as a solo artist). I doubt it has anything to do with Wenner being a homosexual or anything like that.
> It sucks, but it is what it is.
Exactly.
>Read his magazine for a better understanding of Jann's world view.
No, you should "read his magazine", then you might learn how to spell his name.
>Defend Wenner
Now you're being silly. I am not 'defending' anyone - the Hall Of Fame is laughable. I'm just saying I don't think the reasons you give are the correct reasons.
But how does that have anything to do with "an openly gay man" not liking Alice's faith?
>I am also stating the evidence is Coop is not ranked highly on his list of whims, preferences, and personal politics.
I think it's more likely that Jan Wenner is both ignorant of Alice's acheivements and that he hates Alice's music (whether it be by the original band or as a solo artist). I doubt it has anything to do with Wenner being a homosexual or anything like that.
> It sucks, but it is what it is.
Exactly.
>Read his magazine for a better understanding of Jann's world view.
No, you should "read his magazine", then you might learn how to spell his name.
>Defend Wenner
Now you're being silly. I am not 'defending' anyone - the Hall Of Fame is laughable. I'm just saying I don't think the reasons you give are the correct reasons.
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Re: SHOCKER-Alice Not nominated again! but.............
>There appears to be no Christians inducted.
That's not true.
> I accept that it could be about someone's personal politics now actually having been furnished with information.
I think I already told you that Johnny Ramone is in the Hall Of Fame, but you didn't acknowledge that.
That's not true.
> I accept that it could be about someone's personal politics now actually having been furnished with information.
I think I already told you that Johnny Ramone is in the Hall Of Fame, but you didn't acknowledge that.
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Re: SHOCKER-Alice Not nominated again! but.............
I agree with you, in that, I also don't think Jan Wenner has a problem with Alice because Jan is gay.A_MichaelUK wrote: I think it's more likely that Jan Wenner is both ignorant of Alice's acheivements and that he hates Alice's music (whether it be by the original band or as a solo artist). I doubt it has anything to do with Wenner being a homosexual or anything like that.
But it is worth noting that during the early 70s, RS Magazine often gave Alice Cooper very positive reviews and seemed totally aware of his accomplishments. For examples, after Love it to Death got a rave review, Killer was even hailed as one of the best albums of 1971. And even though Billion Dollar Babies album didn't get a good review like the previous albums, the Billion Dollar Babies tour was called one of the best live shows ever in RS's article with Alice. For the most part, the articles during this period were pretty positive and RS acknowledged BACK THEN, Alice Cooper's pioneering role in glam rock, theatrical rock as well as Alice Cooper's musical accomplishments.
It is during the period when Alice went on Hollywood Squares and started talking avidly about golf that RS did a complete turnaround. That's when RS Magazine started to really put down Alice, which is what happened in other rock magazines as well.
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Re: SHOCKER-Alice Not nominated again! but.............
> That's when RS Magazine started to really put down Alice, which is what happened in other rock magazines as well.
That's true, but I'm not sure there was ever an actual editorial policy as such (although I admit there reportedly was where The Sex Pistols were concerned). I think because Alice's popularity began to fade, he became less prominent and probably didn't figure highly on Jan Wenner's personal radar, if you see what I mean.
That's true, but I'm not sure there was ever an actual editorial policy as such (although I admit there reportedly was where The Sex Pistols were concerned). I think because Alice's popularity began to fade, he became less prominent and probably didn't figure highly on Jan Wenner's personal radar, if you see what I mean.
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Re: SHOCKER-Alice Not nominated again! but.............
Andy, since you are from the other side of the pond you may not fully understand the severity to which the US is currently split over cultural issues. Wenner has been a counter-culture, far left ideologue for his entire life and has great disdain for conservatives who are not sympathetic to the enlightened liberal view of the world.
You are entitled to your opinion that he is simply ignorant of Coop’s achievements. I think it is far more than that and based on his cultural and political biases. Readers of this board are free to form their own opinions on how sinister or militant his motives are.
I think we both agree the decision it is not based on facts or merit, otherwise Coop would have been in long ago by any rational or objective criteria.
You are entitled to your opinion that he is simply ignorant of Coop’s achievements. I think it is far more than that and based on his cultural and political biases. Readers of this board are free to form their own opinions on how sinister or militant his motives are.
I think we both agree the decision it is not based on facts or merit, otherwise Coop would have been in long ago by any rational or objective criteria.
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Re: SHOCKER-Alice Not nominated again! but.............
This is true, particularly in the last 15 years. The US has become very split between the Liberals/Democrats and Conservatives/Republicans and the two sides have become increasingly passionate and acrimonious towards eachother. Hollywood is very much on the liberal side, and it is easier for a rock star/actor to be part of the "in crowd" if he/she supports the Democratic cadidates.Jumping Jack wrote:the severity to which the US is currently split over cultural issues.
At the same time, the "Rolling Stone" crowd seemed to become disenchanted with Alice Cooper prior to his beoming a Republican and a Conservative, so I understand Andy's point of view too. The "Rolling Stone" crowd seemed to have grown disenchanted with Alice Cooper by the mid and late 70s when they took him to task for the golf, Hollywood Squares, etc.
So I don't think it is his politics/views of the last 15 years that are really to blame for the fact that they are not in his corner. At the same time, I don't think his politics/views have helped the situation either.
Last edited by glamprincess on Mon Nov 30, 2009 7:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: SHOCKER-Alice Not nominated again! but.............
Yes, I think we all agree that Alice Cooper is not being denied a nomination based on merit or objective rock n' roll criteria.Jumping Jack wrote: I think we both agree the decision it is not based on facts or merit, otherwise Coop would have been in long ago by any rational or objective criteria.
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Re: SHOCKER-Alice Not nominated again! but.............
>Andy, since you are from the other side of the pond you may not fully understand the severity to which the US is currently split over cultural issues.
Actually, I do.
>and has great disdain for conservatives who are not sympathetic to the enlightened liberal view of the world.
So how come Johnny Ramone is in the Hall Of Fame then?! That's maybe the third time I've asked that.
>Readers of this board are free to form their own opinions on how sinister or militant his motives are.
As political (in the general sense) that the music business is, I strongly doubt that there is anything "sinister" about it. The Hall Of Fame is run mainly by idiots and I'll bet that's pretty much all there is to it. As I may have said before, you seem to be saying there are no conservatives in the Hall Of Fame and I will bet you that is not true.
>I think we both agree the decision it is not based on facts or merit, otherwise Coop would have been in long ago by any rational or objective criteria.
Exactly.
Actually, I do.
>and has great disdain for conservatives who are not sympathetic to the enlightened liberal view of the world.
So how come Johnny Ramone is in the Hall Of Fame then?! That's maybe the third time I've asked that.
>Readers of this board are free to form their own opinions on how sinister or militant his motives are.
As political (in the general sense) that the music business is, I strongly doubt that there is anything "sinister" about it. The Hall Of Fame is run mainly by idiots and I'll bet that's pretty much all there is to it. As I may have said before, you seem to be saying there are no conservatives in the Hall Of Fame and I will bet you that is not true.
>I think we both agree the decision it is not based on facts or merit, otherwise Coop would have been in long ago by any rational or objective criteria.
Exactly.
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Re: SHOCKER-Alice Not nominated again! but.............
>At the same time, the "Rolling Stone" crowd seemed to become disenchanted with Alice Cooper prior to his beoming a Republican and a Conservative,
I think we need to get this whole thing into some kind of perspective. I would have hoped it would not have been necessary as Alice has said this often, but this whole thing about Alice being "a Republican" is totally exaggerated. I'm not denying he may have a right - wing view on certain issues but his opinion changes depending on what's being discussed and has often expressed quite liberal views as well. It's tiresome that he is often linked politically with someone like Ted Nugent (who knows and cares a lot more about politics than Alice does) and that's the essential point - Alice hates politics and admits he doesn't know that much about it.
>The "Rolling Stone" crowd seemed to have grown disenchanted with Alice Cooper by the mid and late 70s when they took him to task for the golf, Hollywood Squares, etc.
That's obviously hypocritical of them because "Rolling Stone" became part of the establishment as well.
> At the same time, I don't think his politics/views have helped the situation either.
That's another reason why the Hall Of Fame is irrelevant - they shouldn't even be paying attention to his political opinions, especially when he admits that he's not that interested or knowledgeable in most political issues.
I think we need to get this whole thing into some kind of perspective. I would have hoped it would not have been necessary as Alice has said this often, but this whole thing about Alice being "a Republican" is totally exaggerated. I'm not denying he may have a right - wing view on certain issues but his opinion changes depending on what's being discussed and has often expressed quite liberal views as well. It's tiresome that he is often linked politically with someone like Ted Nugent (who knows and cares a lot more about politics than Alice does) and that's the essential point - Alice hates politics and admits he doesn't know that much about it.
>The "Rolling Stone" crowd seemed to have grown disenchanted with Alice Cooper by the mid and late 70s when they took him to task for the golf, Hollywood Squares, etc.
That's obviously hypocritical of them because "Rolling Stone" became part of the establishment as well.
> At the same time, I don't think his politics/views have helped the situation either.
That's another reason why the Hall Of Fame is irrelevant - they shouldn't even be paying attention to his political opinions, especially when he admits that he's not that interested or knowledgeable in most political issues.
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Re: SHOCKER-Alice Not nominated again! but.............
You raise a very good point. Alice's position as a Republican has been exaggerated and I have stated that here in the past. I should have been more clear, and I should have pointed out that that is more how he has been portrayed in the media. For example, during the 2004 election, he was mentioned by CNN as one of the entertainers who was supporting the Republicans. In addition, many articles on Alice like to mention that he supported Bush and call him a "Republican" as we all know. So I should have mentioned that it is more how he is portrayed by the media than the way things really are. In fact, not too long ago, Alice was said to have given support to Bill Bradley who is a Democrat, demonstrating that the claim that Alice is a Republican has been exaggerated.A_MichaelUK wrote: I think we need to get this whole thing into some kind of perspective. I would have hoped it would not have been necessary as Alice has said this often, but this whole thing about Alice being "a Republican" is totally exaggerated. I'm not denying he may have a right - wing view on certain issues but his opinion changes depending on what's being discussed and has often expressed quite liberal views as well. It's tiresome that he is often linked politically with someone like Ted Nugent (who knows and cares a lot more about politics than Alice does) and that's the essential point - Alice hates politics and admits he doesn't know that much about it.
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Re: SHOCKER-Alice Not nominated again! but.............
>I should have been more clear, and I should have pointed out that that is more how he has been portrayed in the media.
No problem at all as I wasn't referring specifically to your post.
>For example, during the 2004 election, he was mentioned by CNN as one of the entertainers who was supporting the Republicans.
Yes and people believe that, so the myth is perpetuated.
>So I should have mentioned that it is more how he is portrayed by the media than the way things really are.
I agree.
No problem at all as I wasn't referring specifically to your post.
>For example, during the 2004 election, he was mentioned by CNN as one of the entertainers who was supporting the Republicans.
Yes and people believe that, so the myth is perpetuated.
>So I should have mentioned that it is more how he is portrayed by the media than the way things really are.
I agree.
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Re: SHOCKER-Alice Not nominated again! but.............
RS is definitely hypocritical and they have definitely become part of the establishment as well. I was just making the point that they have not been in Alice's corner for a long, long time. For example, when RS has had their "Best of" lists which began during the 1980s, they almost always have ignored Alice Cooper. So whatever perception there has been of Alice Cooper in terms of politics/views recently, I just wanted to point out that they were not in his corner anyways.A_MichaelUK wrote:
>The "Rolling Stone" crowd seemed to have grown disenchanted with Alice Cooper by the mid and late 70s when they took him to task for the golf, Hollywood Squares, etc.
That's obviously hypocritical of them because "Rolling Stone" became part of the establishment as well.
> At the same time, I don't think his politics/views have helped the situation either.
That's another reason why the Hall Of Fame is irrelevant - they shouldn't even be paying attention to his political opinions, especially when he admits that he's not that interested or knowledgeable in most political issues.
The Hall of Fame is irrelevant. When one examines the nominees/inductees, it is obvious that people with less rock n' roll credentials are often selected over much more deserving candidates. I mean, does anyone actually believe that Jackson Browne, The Talking Heads, Patti Smith, Chic or LL Cool J deserve to be in the Hall of Fame more than Alice Cooper? Obviously not. That's the whole point.
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Re: SHOCKER-Alice Not nominated again! but.............
>I just wanted to point out that they were not in his corner anyways.
That's basically true.
That's basically true.
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Re: SHOCKER-Alice Not nominated again! but.............
Well said Glam! and YOU know all about CRITERIA too!glamprincess wrote:RS is definitely hypocritical and they have definitely become part of the establishment as well. I was just making the point that they have not been in Alice's corner for a long, long time. For example, when RS has had their "Best of" lists which began during the 1980s, they almost always have ignored Alice Cooper. So whatever perception there has been of Alice Cooper in terms of politics/views recently, I just wanted to point out that they were not in his corner anyways.A_MichaelUK wrote:
>The "Rolling Stone" crowd seemed to have grown disenchanted with Alice Cooper by the mid and late 70s when they took him to task for the golf, Hollywood Squares, etc.
That's obviously hypocritical of them because "Rolling Stone" became part of the establishment as well.
> At the same time, I don't think his politics/views have helped the situation either.
That's another reason why the Hall Of Fame is irrelevant - they shouldn't even be paying attention to his political opinions, especially when he admits that he's not that interested or knowledgeable in most political issues.
The Hall of Fame is irrelevant. When one examines the nominees/inductees, it is obvious that people with less rock n' roll credentials are often selected over much more deserving candidates. I mean, does anyone actually believe that Jackson Browne, The Talking Heads, Patti Smith, Chic or LL Cool J deserve to be in the Hall of Fame more than Alice Cooper? Obviously not. That's the whole point.
I've see a million faces and I've rocked 'em all ~ JBJ
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Re: SHOCKER-Alice Not nominated again! but.............
Thanks Madame B. You have a way with words....MadameBondage wrote: Well said Glam! and YOU know all about CRITERIA too!
Re: SHOCKER-Alice Not nominated again! but.............
A_MichaelUK wrote:>
I think I already told you that Johnny Ramone is in the Hall Of Fame, but you didn't acknowledge that.
Sorry Andy...That was me...I said that since Alice is Republican, maybe That might have something to do with Alice not getting voted into the HOF...And you Said, That's not true...Joey Ramone was voted in so I was off the mark. I was going to respond to that but found my self too lazy to do so. I still think that I am partly right (IMHO) and also that fact that Wenner doesnt Care for the genre or Alice for that matter.
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Re: SHOCKER-Alice Not nominated again! but.............
Hehehe, thank you Glam, "CRITERIA" being the buzzword hereglamprincess wrote:Thanks Madame B. You have a way with words....MadameBondage wrote: Well said Glam! and YOU know all about CRITERIA too!
I've see a million faces and I've rocked 'em all ~ JBJ
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Re: SHOCKER-Alice Not nominated again! but.............
>Sorry Andy...That was me...
No problem at all.
>I said that since Alice is Republican, maybe That might have something to do with Alice not getting voted into the HOF...
To be fair to you, I'm not saying that it helps that Alice leans that way politically (and that's a whole other subject that has been debated here before, I think), but I still maintain that is not the primary reason.
>I still think that I am partly right (IMHO) and also that fact that Wenner doesnt Care for the genre or Alice for that matter.
I think the latter is more likely, especially when you see who has been inducted.
No problem at all.
>I said that since Alice is Republican, maybe That might have something to do with Alice not getting voted into the HOF...
To be fair to you, I'm not saying that it helps that Alice leans that way politically (and that's a whole other subject that has been debated here before, I think), but I still maintain that is not the primary reason.
>I still think that I am partly right (IMHO) and also that fact that Wenner doesnt Care for the genre or Alice for that matter.
I think the latter is more likely, especially when you see who has been inducted.
Re: SHOCKER-Alice Not nominated again! but.............
While your statement about Joey Ramone was spot on...( I should have thought of that myself)A_MichaelUK wrote:>Sorry Andy...That was me...
No problem at all.
>I said that since Alice is Republican, maybe That might have something to do with Alice not getting voted into the HOF...
To be fair to you, I'm not saying that it helps that Alice leans that way politically (and that's a whole other subject that has been debated here before, I think), but I still maintain that is not the primary reason.
>I still think that I am partly right (IMHO) and also that fact that Wenner doesnt Care for the genre or Alice for that matter.
I think the latter is more likely, especially when you see who has been inducted.
On the whole...I do agree that it isn't the primary reason.
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Re: SHOCKER-Alice Not nominated again! but.............
The 2010 Inductees are:
ABBA
GENESIS
JIMMY CLIFF
THE HOLLIES
THE STOOGES
ABBA
GENESIS
JIMMY CLIFF
THE HOLLIES
THE STOOGES
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